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  1. #51
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    If we go for BSD, couldn't we in theory run ASP.NET pages on that?

    ...need to find out...

  2. #52
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    You can have breaks in ASP.NET pages, but only when debugging and that has serious performance impacts.

    I can write stuff to the trace as it's processed...

  3. #53
    FreeBSD The Power to Serve silver trophy pippo's Avatar
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    >>> Anyone good with BSD?
    A little experience on FreeBSD,
    but maybe I could use my remote server that runs on it.
    I have php/mysql on it too.



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  4. #54
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally posted by dhtmlgod
    Actually, one of the hosts I use offers .NET hosting with PHP support, but they don't have mySQL

    J, how would we test server loads/connections/etc. I know theres software out there, but aren't they pricy?
    Server load is easy with the windows Advanced Server monitoring tools. Connections will need to be a really noddy .NET page (number of current connections) and PHP page (hopefully allows this as well).

    I was only saying the breaks for purposes of the Zend encoder, to see where load was on the server at certain parts of the page. I understand break-point measurements aren't anywhere near as accurate on the web as it is in app development though

    Basically I think we'll be fine with my server at work and D's computer at home for our 2 sets of tests (the 2 would be independent and not comparable because of completely different hardware and OS's).

    So, I can setup the SQL Server, MySQL and PHP next week, likely, as this week is busy, I guess I'll just need D's data as a .sql file

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  5. #55
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    The data was pretty crap, just copy and paste a few times outta the Northwind database!


  6. #56
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Not sure BSD is a good idea for .NET - probably has a similar performance drop like running PHP on Windows.

  7. #57
    FreeBSD The Power to Serve silver trophy pippo's Avatar
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    Harry,
    AFAIK actually you can't run .NET on FreeBSD.
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  8. #58
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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  9. #59
    FreeBSD The Power to Serve silver trophy pippo's Avatar
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    Yup,
    I already know that statement ( Jeremy posted it to the .NET forum ) but on the FreeBSD web site I didn't found any notice about that.
    Mr Andrea
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  10. #60
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HarryF
    What is a problem, from where I'm standing, is PHP runs alot slower on Windows
    I wouldn't say 'alot slower.' As long as it's the latest version and installed as a module (we're talking Apache right?) it shouldn't be all that much slower

    Sean
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  11. #61
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Actually I'd be running it under IIS5 to keep the hardware, OS and webserver the same. Seems that I'm finding out more and more that xNix cross platform means the same thing as .NET cross platform: works better in some environments than others

    That wasn't a jab, just that nobody ever gave me that impression, hence how I structured the tests. I'm open to other alternatives, but we really need to have one series of tests with a decent baseline standard...
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  12. #62
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Seems that I'm finding out more and more that xNix cross platform means the same thing as .NET cross platform: works better in some environments than others
    PHP works better with Apache because a module is supplied, it's dead donkey with IIS because it's run through CGI

    Sean
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  13. #63
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    I tried a loose (hardware specs where different but not far out) comparison using Apache 1.3 on Windows and Linux - we're talking multiple factors of ten here...

    The problem may be that Apache itself is slower. Course didn't check out Apache 2.x which is meant to be alot better on Windows.

  14. #64
    FreeBSD The Power to Serve silver trophy pippo's Avatar
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    >>J, how would we test server loads/connections/etc. I know
    >>theres software out there, but aren't they pricy?
    M@arco suggested me this free solution:
    http://www.michael-thomas.com/webdev...ress_tools.htm
    @
    http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...threadid=83959

    I never take a look at it though,
    Last edited by pippo; Nov 20, 2002 at 16:37.
    Mr Andrea
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  15. #65
    FreeBSD The Power to Serve silver trophy pippo's Avatar
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    From php side the right enviroment is php/apache/*nix,
    and that's what is widely used in the world.
    The test needs to be adherent to the reality.
    Mr Andrea
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  16. #66
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HarryF
    The problem may be that Apache itself is slower. Course didn't check out Apache 2.x which is meant to be alot better on Windows.
    I was just going to ask if you were going to try 2*

    Sean
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  17. #67
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    Ok, so we've got the hardware/software more or less sussed... what we going to do test the scipts? Same thing whith better performance script? Maybe processing it a little?

  18. #68
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Thing is, using different OS, webserver, etc really nullifies the point of any testing to actually compare speed and so on, since most of the differences will instantly be attributable to the environment.

    This is why I suggested one "neutral ground" (win2k is closer to center since .NET server is where .NET is suspposed to run) and another "home environment" test.
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  19. #69
    SitePoint Guru sowen's Avatar
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    OK, it looks like this is taking off and could turn into a really interesting Sitepoint article .

    My 2p - as far as hardware goes why not approach someone like Dell Hosting? They might supply two equally spec'ed systems one with windows one with linux for a day in return for the mention. I can't think of a better baseline than that.

  20. #70
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Thing is, using different OS, webserver, etc really nullifies the point of any testing to actually compare speed and so on, since most of the differences will instantly be attributable to the environment.
    I disagree strongly. I say they should be run on the same spec hardware but in their "favorite" environment. For PHP thats LAMP - it's what it was origional designed for and still gets rather preferential treatment over alternatives.

    I don't see why PHP should fall for the same fast one that MS pulled on J2EE...

    This is why I suggested one "neutral ground" (win2k is closer to center since .NET server is where .NET is suspposed to run) and another "home environment" test.
    *Cough* I say put .NET in the best environment possible (.NET Server) and let the same apply to PHP (LAMP).

    Like I say - if no one can offer an alternative, I can come up with the right environment for both after XMas.

    So - anyone for PHP Petstore?

    My 2p - as far as hardware goes why not approach someone like Dell Hosting? They might supply two equally spec'ed systems one with windows one with linux for a day in return for the mention. I can't think of a better baseline than that.
    That would be the best solution IMO. Or Rackspace perhaps?

  21. #71
    Currently Occupied; Till Sunda Andrew-J2000's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HarryF


    So - anyone for PHP Petstore?

    Hehe, what about it "Sitepoint challenge", php vs DotNet for PHP Petstore

  22. #72
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    *Cough* I say put .NET in the best environment possible (.NET Server) and let the same apply to PHP (LAMP).
    I agree. If you're going to pit them against each other, to do a true test you want to have them on their best terms. In this way you get a benchmark of the package as a whole, and aren't disadvantaging any one language becuase it's being run on a platform which it doesn't like very much.

    The fact is that while we speak about PHP and .NET it's not about the individual languages (to me anyway) it's about the package as a whole. You could have the best, and most efficient programming language in the world, but if it's on a platform it really hates then it's pointless.
    Regards, Ant.

  23. #73
    The doctor is in... silver trophy MarcusJT's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    This was never, ever, meant to be a true comparison

    The hardware is different, OS is different, webserver is different AND database is different. Since we can't ever get a decent baseline it was just curiosity.
    So what ARE we comparing, and on what basis? Otherwise this isn't telling us much....!
    MarcusJT
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  24. #74
    The doctor is in... silver trophy MarcusJT's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dhtmlgod
    Sounds good to me. If we want to test ASP, we should maybe see if M@cro is intested...
    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    You mean M@arco?
    Who are these "M@cro" and "M@arco" people anyway?

    If they don't want to do it, I (M@rco ) may well be interested in writing an ASP version if I could be convinced that a meaningful comparison could be made between the different implementations, and that the time I would have to invest in such a pursuit would therefore be of significant value to us all.

    Basic benchmarking/experimental methodology requires that all variables are kept constant apart from those which are under investigation - these being the code and the scripting language/platform itself.

    However, this is nigh on impossible to achieve, since either different databases would be required and thus connected to using the fastest native drivers, OR the same database would be used for each, in which case drivers would have to be used which may be very mature for one implementation (e.g. PHP-->MySQL) and immature for another (e.g. ASP-->MySQL). In either case, uncontrolled variables start to creep in immediately.

    The database factor could be removed entirely by using an XML data source, but then we are removing half of the test, since it could then be rewritten as an XSLT transformation instead, which would then be turning the test into something else altogether.

    For these (and many other reasons, such as the platform itself, speed vs scalability testing, etc. etc.), I don't see a meaningful comparison being feasible, and if it's not meaningful, then what's the point?!! Comparing apples and oranges doesn't tell you anything...

    However, please feel free to explain it to me if I'm missing something here!
    Last edited by M@rco; Nov 20, 2002 at 19:21.
    MarcusJT
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    - Please think, Google, and search these forums before posting!

  25. #75
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    To me, running 2 sets of tests with .NET and PHP on win2k (which neither were ever optimized for), and another series on their "favourite" environments makes sense.

    This will never be a true speed comparison as was already mentioned due to drivers. Harry says the PHP SQL Server ones are fairly mature so perhaps simply a third database server would really even it up.

    I really want to create an even playing field for a relative baseline (though not perfect of course, and no matter which language "loses" there will always be excuses) and then another in the "favourite" environment to really test the speed.

    That's my opinion and I'm willing to be overruled but a test of the 2 on different platforms, different webservers, different databases seems futile because what would we really be proving? Which aspect is in fact faster will always be the question and will render anything we due relatively useless if we can't answer some of the questions with more than just a "I say they should be run on the same spec hardware but in their "favorite" environment. For PHP thats LAMP - it's what it was origional designed for".

    Btw, .NET was designed for .NET Server...
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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