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  1. #76
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I agree temis. I've always wondered why some people try so hard to supress nature. You _can't_ beat nature, you can do your best to try but you will never be 100% succesful.

  2. #77
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Some rules:

    • You can't convince a 'true' Christian. They'll always come with the most complicated questions and answers and will make your 'task' hopeless
    • There's no way to prove that there is something like a supernatural being ('God'). There is no way to prove that it isn't there either. This powerful guy will have to come here to prove its (supernatural beings have no gender, that's only something with 'lower' beings) existence.
    • There can impossible be one 'God' since there are so many (different) religions on this planet or this 'God' must like it to see 'its' creatures destroy eachother since they're unable to convince each other on a gentle way (remember those peace talks who happen so reguarly? The chance that one succeeds is smaller than that you win the lottery)
    • The universe is shaped out of Chaos. We Humans are shaped of the same chaos. Therefore, it's impossible for us Humans to do everything right.
    • Good and Evil don't exist. The only things that exist are evenings, things that happen. We are the ones that say that something is good or bad, but this depends on which side you are: what your believe in this world is. There's no Universal Code to define Good and Evil.
    • Perfection is a curse.
    • War is insane, but us Humans are insane enough to use it.
    • Freedom is a lie. We're bound by numerous things with the last thing we do (die) as the 'last appointment'

    and some questions:
    [list][*]If there was no 'Evil', how would we define 'Good'?[*]What's left of Christianity after the death of Jezus?[*]Why should monogamy be so 'good'? Every man/woman who has had some basic genetics/biology knows that it's essential for a healthy population to get the best genes in as many offspring as possible. In the 'wild' nature, only a few species 'know' monogamy, the vast majority is polygamous.
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
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  3. #78
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Well said elledan. I'd have to agree.

    I'd also like to add that _everything_ is subjective, particularly when you are unaware of it.

  4. #79
    Lord of the Underworld
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    [B]
    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    Side note on hate-crimes: I think of the term "hate crime" as simply a label people like to use to describe things...something that gets more attention than other things. I could be wrong, but I definelty get the impression that people like to play up racism, as if it's raging out of control...fact of the matter is I very rarely see any evidence of racism wherever I might be...I'm sure it is "alive and well", but I think we've made great strides in striking it down, and will continue to do so.
    I agree with the last post on this... I am jewish, and I get so much racism from people @ school... people that I consider good friends and even from girlfriends! IT DOES happen, it IS ugly and I think that the worst thing in the world is picking on someone else becuase they are different...

    I'm not going to post my thoughts on christianity, because I dont believe it is my place to judge othres and what they believe in...as for porn sites, I do not believe it is immoral...

    Adam

  5. #80
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    How can there be an "absolute" right and wrong when no two people can totally agree on precisely what is right and what is wrong? Do you know what is absolutey right and what is not? This is not a black and white world we live in.
    I don't think you're listening: if there IS a God who created EVERYTHING, that God can set any right and wrongs that he wishes...he's the only one who can, since he owns it all. I do not know what is absolutely right...but with The Bible and some common sense I think I can usually come close.

    Originally posted by temis
    On the issue of Christianity being corrupt I have a question. If the majority of those who belong to this religion are corrupt, isnt there something wrong with the religion? Surely, the people see it somewhere and adopt it to their lives.

    I have a lot of questions about this religion. How come human body is all of a sudden dirty and shameful? How is sex (which is nothing but a natural instinct) immoral? How are human instincts and desires have to be suppresed? This makes it a religion of what? Not love...
    It is not the majority of people. The majority of them sin...but everybody does. The human body is not dirty...it is simply not for pornographis uses. Sex is not immoral...so I don't know where you're getting that from. Human desires are to be surpressed at times (not always) because we are by nature sinful.

    Here you are throwing questions at me...some of which I've already answered, and some of which don't even apply...if you really believe that Christianity thinks sex is immoral, then you are sorely mistaken.

    Originally posted by temis
    What is absolute right and wrong? Care to define it? Please?
    An absolute wrong, for example, is something that IS wrong no matter what. I believe that murdering someone, when not in a war or self defense, is an absolute wrong...you see, without a God, this is debateable...someone could easily say "Well, I don't think its wrong"...without a higher being, then it all comes down to our OPINION of what is right and wrong...and personally, there are some things I just know are wrong...


  6. #81
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan
    Some rules:

    • You can't convince a 'true' Christian. They'll always come with the most complicated questions and answers and will make your 'task' hopeless
    • There's no way to prove that there is something like a supernatural being ('God'). There is no way to prove that it isn't there either. This powerful guy will have to come here to prove its (supernatural beings have no gender, that's only something with 'lower' beings) existence.
    • There can impossible be one 'God' since there are so many (different) religions on this planet or this 'God' must like it to see 'its' creatures destroy eachother since they're unable to convince each other on a gentle way (remember those peace talks who happen so reguarly? The chance that one succeeds is smaller than that you win the lottery)
    • The universe is shaped out of Chaos. We Humans are shaped of the same chaos. Therefore, it's impossible for us Humans to do everything right.
    • Good and Evil don't exist. The only things that exist are evenings, things that happen. We are the ones that say that something is good or bad, but this depends on which side you are: what your believe in this world is. There's no Universal Code to define Good and Evil.
    • Perfection is a curse.
    • War is insane, but us Humans are insane enough to use it.
    • Freedom is a lie. We're bound by numerous things with the last thing we do (die) as the 'last appointment'

    and some questions:
    [list][*]If there was no 'Evil', how would we define 'Good'?[*]What's left of Christianity after the death of Jezus?[*]Why should monogamy be so 'good'? Every man/woman who has had some basic genetics/biology knows that it's essential for a healthy population to get the best genes in as many offspring as possible. In the 'wild' nature, only a few species 'know' monogamy, the vast majority is polygamous.
    Lots of points...some of which I have addressed before...

    1 - Jesus does have a gender of sorts...he is male.

    2 - God does not intervene often on Earth...he is not a dictator...we are sinful and we get ourselves into trouble constantly...but I don't think it would be much better to have him constantly correcting us. Hard to explain...but I don't see God as constantly stepping in like that.

    3 - If there is a God, then Good and Evil can definetly exist. It's pretty disturbing to think that I could do something truly terrible, and it would only be people's "opinion" that it was wrong...

    4 - Perfection is a curse? What the?

    5 - I would define Good through The Bible. Go ahead and sleep around if you so choose Elledan...I do feel that giving into what you all like to call "natural instinct" (another word for sin at times), will inevitably lead to an emptiness and guilt for many people...I know that, for me, it is never as fulfilling as it seems to be beforehand.

    6 - "What's left of Christianity after the death of Jezus?" - Jesus, actually. What do you mean what's left? He died, and in case you didn't know, he rose again from the dead. You'll have to be a bit more specific.

  7. #82
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    You don't think hate crimes exist? Man watch the news sometimes. A hate crime is any crime committed for no reason other than the person is different. The perpetrator was not looking for money, not looking for revenge, they just hated what this person was and wanted to hurt them. 2 from recent memory would be those 2 texas hicks who dragged this guy behind their truck until he died just for being black, and that gay guy who got beat and tied up to a fence and left to die just because he was gay. Hate crimes do exist, thinking otherwise is just ignorant.

    Chris

  8. #83
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yes, crimes that people call "hate crimes" exist...and thank you for the definition, it helps illustrate the point for me a bit better.

    I simply think its a term people like to use to put emphasis on these crimes more than anything...especially with the usual racial undertone of each crime.

  9. #84
    SitePoint Enthusiast Daniel's Avatar
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    Originally posted by temis
    If the majority of those who belong to this religion are corrupt, isnt there something wrong with the religion?
    Yes.

    Originally posted by temis
    Surely, the people see it somewhere and adopt it to their lives.
    Yes, some people do. Unfortunately other people don't and decide that if you aren't a Christian you are the worst person on Earth. This is why Christianity is so popular. People were forced into believing the Bible - if they didn't believe, they became outsiders to society as a whole. Thankfully, in this day and age, people aren't burned alive for saying what they believe.

    Originally posted by temis
    I have a lot of questions about this religion. How come human body is all of a sudden dirty and shameful? How is sex (which is nothing but a natural instinct) immoral? How are human instincts and desires have to be suppresed? This makes it a religion of what? Not love...
    Sex is not immoral. Neither is lust. Lust is a natural part of every animal - it is nature's way of making sure we produce offspring. There isn't any argument about it.

    Doesn't the Bible say that looking at another woman lustfully is only sinful if you are already married? I am pretty sure it does.
    Daniel Irvine
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  10. #85
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    No, I'm nearly 100% sure that any form of lust is a sin. Lust is one of the seven deadly sins, in fact.

    Sex is not immoral when inside a loving marriage...you're right: our sex drive is a major factor in making sure we reproduce...it's another "natural instinct"...just because we're born with the desire does not mean it isn't a sin.

  11. #86
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    The seven deadly sins are only sins if you allow them to consume your lives.

    Some examples:
    It is ok to be proud at your accomplishments but not at the expense of everything else or to belittle others.

    It is ok to feast and celebrate but not daily.

    It is ok to be attracted to someone with the intent to pursue a relationship and possible sexual congress, it is not ok to let that consume your lives to the detriment to others around you (Stalking).
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  12. #87
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Correct...however I think lusting after anyone other than your wife is immoral...I could be wrong...if someone can point me to a Bible passage showing the contrary I'd readily admit my mistake...but I'm nearly sure that lust is a sin.

  13. #88
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Correct...however I think lusting after anyone other than your wife is immoral...I could be wrong...if someone can point me to a Bible passage showing the contrary I'd readily admit my mistake...but I'm nearly sure that lust is a sin.
    Isn't courting someone to make them your wife a form of lust? If your not married how are to know who is the right one for you? Nature and the emotion of lust helps. Ever hear of the term "chemical attraction"? Ever look at someone and want to get to know them better? Lust doesn't have to culminate in sex just desire. Your right being unfaithful to the person you take as your spouse is wrong and immoral but not everyone has a life partner and some are still seeking.
    Wayne Luke
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  14. #89
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Perhaps we have a different definition of the word...to me, Lust is desiring to engage in some sort of sexual conduct with someone...imaging it, things like that. Attraction isn't really the samething. It's a fuzzy line.


  15. #90
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    Originally posted by nitegold
    Originally posted by temis
    Surely, the people see it somewhere and adopt it to their lives.
    Yes, some people do. Unfortunately other people don't and decide that if you aren't a Christian you are the worst person on Earth.[/B]
    I like the way you said it, nitegold! I guess I am the worst person on Earth then. (As well as a few others I know )

  16. #91
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I can agree...I've met some pretty pushy Christians in my time. I'll try to explain to them that if you want to change the world for the better, live a good life and preach when someone else brings it up...and even then, don't try to "scare" them.

    I think the whole concept of scaring people into Christianity is a terrible idea. Those who are scared are being brought into the Faith in an un-natural way. Those who arn't obviously take all those "your soul is in danger!" lines as coming from wackos. Your soul may be in danger...but you can't force or scare someone into doing something about it.

  17. #92
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    Originally posted by aspen
    The pope does have gold hubcaps on his golfcart thing. It has 3 rows of seats and gold hubcaps, I've saw a story about it on the news when he got it. Then I've seen pictures of the vatican as well, and i can't help but think that if saving the worlds hungry was that important to them they'd use some of that massive wealth to do it.
    Yeah, I'm SURE they are REAL gold too......and the pope burns money to keep warm at night. Honestly, are you that desperate to condemn something you obviously know nothing about?

    The Catholic church, through it's various charitable organizations, is responsible for more humanitarian aide world wide than ANY other organization in the world today. Period.

    The earthly part of it isn't perfect, but neither are men. One needs to separate the worldly from the divine.

  18. #93
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish


    An absolute wrong, for example, is something that IS wrong no matter what. I believe that murdering someone, when not in a war or self defense, is an absolute wrong...

    Doesn't the bible say "Thou shallt not kill" ? It doesn't say "except in case a, b, ... "


  19. #94
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yes, it does. But there is no doubt in my mind that it is acceptable to kill someone who is, say, trying to murder you. I believe war can be an exception...but is not always so. I'm not going to pretend that The Bible covers everything in detail - it doesn't...it does, however, give me a very useful guide on how to live.

  20. #95
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Fair enough.. but then there can be no absolute right or wrong.

  21. #96
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Of course there can be! Assuming Jesus Christ does exist, he would be the one to decide whether this would be wrong in this situation, or another thing in another situation. Without a God, it's all opinion. With an all-might creator, he declares what is right and wrong.

  22. #97
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Let me state my opinion on this subject...

    First of all, sex is, no matter that you believe in Jesus, Allah or any other god, a part of life. Of nature. I don't see why there is such a taboe about it. There isn't anymore in West-Europe, but in other countries there still is. I also don't see a point in censoring 'bad language' because you hear it and say it all the time (even if you don't know it). Why watch a Jerry Springer show anyway? :-)

    Secondly, porn mustn't be a bad thing. It gives those men/women who need some satisfaction, their satisfaction, so they won't go FORCE people to do stuff those people don't want. BUT I do believe porn is only there for those who WANT to see it. I mean those people who can make the decision. And that asks some maturity. Kids often are curious. And in those cases Porn is bad. But restricting them to not see it won't help. You need to tell them and ask them (ie discuss) about the subject and just let them come to their sences.

    Censureship is a bad thing. If people don't want to see some stuff or here some stuff they should be mature enough to take the decision not to switch to a certain program, not to visit certain websites, not to hire certain video's etc etc.

    Christophe

  23. #98
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan
    Some rules:

    • Perfection is a curse.
    • Freedom is a lie. We're bound by numerous things with the last thing we do (die) as the 'last appointment'

    and some questions:
    [list][*]If there was no 'Evil', how would we define 'Good'?[*]What's left of Christianity after the death of Jezus?[*]Why should monogamy be so 'good'? Every man/woman who has had some basic genetics/biology knows that it's essential for a healthy population to get the best genes in as many offspring as possible. In the 'wild' nature, only a few species 'know' monogamy, the vast majority is polygamous.
    Let me repeat myself and explain some points:

    • If you've read books like 'This perfect day' and '1984' you'll know what I mean. If you had a perfect looking county, with a happy population and nobody is ill and nobody dies of cancer and accidents or looks even ugly. You can get what you what and nobody complains... The dream of everyone, right?

      Just imagine that you had a population like you read about in the bible: a happy population of only 'true' Christians. This would collapse some day . There are no certainties in life: no system is stable, every atom will fall apart some day and after the last atom has fallen apart, the universe will be an empty space, without any form of life.
    • Freedom is just as impossible as everlasting perfection. Freedom only exists till a certain degree.
    • This one seems to be pretty clear. Take the perfect population: if only 'Good' existed and someone did something 'Evil' how would they know that it was 'Evil'?
    • Ok, so this guy Jesus died, stood up again and then?

      First some sitenotes:
      Jesus wasn't born out of a maiden, he was one of the many children of a common family.
      Most of those 'fairy-tales' about the life of Jesus are not true, they can easily be proven to be wrong with other sources.
      (end of sitenotes)

      The origional form of Christianity has split up, split up again and again and again etc.
      During history, churces used those so called 'Christians' to make huge profits. This still happens, although calling the Vatican corrupt would not totally be true, but you could call it hypocritical.
      And those 'Holy Wars'... Why? It seems like Judes, Christians and Muslims rather see each other die instantly...
      Right after the first lifesigns of Christianity it seems like this religion is dying at a slow pace. Only the thought of being a totally convinced Christian make me shiver.
      Christianity is like every average sect, it's only much bigger and older.
      -----------------------

      I'll stop here before I really start offending people
    • Last point, but very important, it surprises me that nobody has replied on it yet.
      Monogamy is one of the things that will kill Humanity in the next few centuries. More and more people will be born disabled. Many of the new born will later in their life become handicapped due to genetic defects. It will be something like Armageddon, but then much more slower, deadlier and painful...

      The current breakthroughs in Genetic Research won't stop this, not even if they would make much faster progress. And besides, 'true' Christians are against any form of Genetic Research since every life would be 'sacred'. So none of those people would allow themselves to be cured with a treatment that exists due to this form of research, or even worse, Genetic Engineering.

      Humanity will grow weaker and weaker and our world will collapse. Maybe not this century, maybe not even the next, but it will happen. Unless we change something dramatically before that time. The Choice is ours...
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
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  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Suffice to say, I have a somewhat brighter outlook on things.

    You said:
    ----------------------------
    If you've read books like 'This perfect day' and '1984' you'll know what I mean. If you had a perfect looking county, with a happy population and nobody is ill and nobody dies of cancer and accidents or looks even ugly. You can get what you what and nobody complains... The dream of everyone, right?

    Just imagine that you had a population like you read about in the bible: a happy population of only 'true' Christians. This would collapse some day . There are no certainties in life: no system is stable, every atom will fall apart some day and after the last atom has fallen apart, the universe will be an empty space, without any form of life.

    Reply:
    ----------------------------
    Absolutely right...but that definetly needed clarification. We are sinful creatures and therefore perfection will never be reached without God and Heaven...a world full of Christians may not have the problems we have today...but they would definetly have problems of their own to deal with.


    You Said:
    ----------------------------
    Ok, so this guy Jesus died, stood up again and then?

    First some sitenotes:
    Jesus wasn't born out of a maiden, he was one of the many children of a common family.
    Most of those 'fairy-tales' about the life of Jesus are not true, they can easily be proven to be wrong with other sources.


    Reply:
    ----------------------------
    I find it amazingly hard to believe that you can prove Jesus was a normally born child. You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see how there is any reliable "source" that can reasonably prove that Jesus was not who we Christians say he is.


    You Said:
    ----------------------------
    "Right after the first lifesigns of Christianity it seems like this religion is dying at a slow pace. Only the thought of being a totally convinced Christian make me shiver.
    Christianity is like every average sect, it's only much bigger and older."


    Reply:
    ----------------------------
    Well, then it's not like every sect, is it? I personally don't see Christianity dying; don't know why you seem to think so. Even if it were, I'm un-fazed by it.



    I also find it WAY out there that monogomy will kill us all. You said more and more will be born disabled...however I don't see you explaining WHY this will happen. Strong people will be born as well...there will always be a mix.
    Percentage-wise I don't see why everything would change.



  25. #100
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    What's going to lead to the downfall of humans is the destruction of the environment, not our breeding habits.



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