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  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    By the way...I'll bet less than one-tenth of one percent of Playboy subscribers enjoy it for its artistic value...I just don't buy that exscuse, sorry. Human body beautiful? Yeah, of course...appreciate it without lusting over it...



    [Edited by TWTCommish on 08-30-2000 at 03:20 PM]

  2. #27
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I'd have to agree with aspen on this one.

    Depictions of violence are commonplace and accepted. America itself was founded in violence and celebrates violence (eg. 4th of july). At the same time, the generaly result of violence is considered bad.

    Sex on the other hand is considered by many to be dirty and immoral, and depictions of it are not widely accepted as appropriate even though the result of sex, children, are viewed by those same people as a blessing and a wonderful thing.

    There seems to be some disparity between perceptions of sex and violence and the perceptions of their ultimate outcomes.


  3. #28
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    I was on about Hardcore pornography being bad... not sex...
    Where would we be without reproduction? Lust is not necessarily a bad thing either, as long as it's controlled... I am sure alot most people (men, to be more specific) see girls and think 'hmmm, she's attractive (or words to that effect )'... which is perfectly natural, but I dont think there is any need for millions of websites to show videos of orgies and stuff...
    btw; that's only my opinion, any can have a opinion (so I dont get flamed)...

    Thought I'd add... I like kids aswell, but if I had kids, I wouldn't like them looking at porn at the age of 14 (or any age) which was the original topic of this thread.

    Again, this is just my opinion, you are perfectly entitled to your own... but I think mine is firmly set.


    [Edited by anti_alias on 08-30-2000 at 04:23 PM]

  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    anti said it well...

    Yeah - there is too much violence out there. I don't see how that relates to this discussion. It's like me saying "Hey, this guy is really mean", and someone else saying "Yeah, but there's this other mean guy you know and you never call him mean!"...just seems irrelevant to me, unless we're going to branch out onto an entirely different subject.

    Side note: the 4 of July celebrates violence? I though it was a celebration of Independence...to say it's a celebration of violence is far too vauge...violence IS necessary at times...





    [Edited by TWTCommish on 08-30-2000 at 04:33 PM]

  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    Sex on the other hand is considered by many to be dirty and immoral, and depictions of it are not widely accepted as appropriate even though the result of sex, children, are viewed by those same people as a blessing and a wonderful thing.

    There seems to be some disparity between perceptions of sex and violence and the perceptions of their ultimate outcomes.
    I don't know who you've been talking to - no one I know considers it immoral when done within a loving marriage. Out of wedlock is another story. I think sex is God's gift to us...and as such should be used appropriately...any other use is an abuse of it. I even have non-Christian friends who also agree that sex is God's (some sort of God) gift to us...

    Sex and children are directly linked, both are part of life and the desire to have sex and children is part of our wiring - its built into us. I don't buy into any Christians who claim that sex for anything other than reproduction is sin...so I won't defend that.

  6. #31
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    I am with Luzer and aspen on this one. Human body and sex needs to be appreciated. In a lot of countries in the world porn is legal, so is prostitution. Take the Netherlands with the Amsterdam's red light district. I've been there, and see nothing wrong with that. I see nothing wrong with reading Playboy and porn sites. Being a woman I read the playboy too sometimes and dont find it immoral.

    I am, perhaps, a bit too liberal, but why deprive yourself of something that's beautiful and enjoyable?

    You made good points guys, thank you!

    To TWT and anti_:
    This is not off the subject. The discussion originally started as a porn site topic. Hardcore and child pornography is only a subset of all porn sites. And the comparison of attitudes towards violence and sex are perfectly legitimate arguments. Therefore aspen's, luzer's and my replies are not off topic.


  7. #32
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    I don't know who you've been talking to - no one I know considers it immoral when done within a loving marriage. Out of wedlock is another story. I think sex is God's gift to us...and as such should be used appropriately...any other use is an abuse of it. I even have non-Christian friends who also agree that sex is God's (some sort of God) gift to us...

    [/B]
    I wouldnt argue with your beleifs, but let me ask you this: if I were to sleep with a man I dearly loved without being married to him - "out of the wedlock" - what kind of another story is that?

  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    You'd have to be more specific - I think it would be immoral (as a Christian, of course) to do so...obviously it's a lesser offense if you truly love him and marry him shortly afterwards...but I still believe that sex is for loving marriages...and everything outside of that is not the way God intended us to behave.

    My apologies - the violence argument is relevant...however I still maintain that violence is too explicit right now...doesn't change my views on sex really.

    But, once again: of course sex needs to be appreciated. Even (reasonable) Christians appreciate it...I'm not against sex...and yes, humans are a beautiful, incredible creation...I don't see how that justifies pornography. Like I said earlier: I've never met anyone who visits a porn site for its artistic value or reads Playboy for inspiration.

  9. #34
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    I know a girl who subscribes to playboy because she is a Journalism Major and they have the best articles of any magazine she's seen.

    I read playboy cover to cover, the articles are great, the jokes are hilarious, I really like the social commentary sections too. I just dont think its right to look down on someone because they do that. And I'm sure you're wrong, I bet you very very very few people read playboy to "Get off" because the fact is playboy isn't near as explicit as hustler or hard core porn websites/movies. If someone is going to do that they're not going to to do it with playboy. I just gotta defend my favorite magazine.

    I really just have a problem with religious people proclaiming what is right and wrong. The worst crimes in history were done in the name of god. Most overtly religious people I know are arrogant and narrow minded. I think they left out a portion of the bible, the portion that teaches tolerance and acceptance of the beliefs of others.

    Watches it hit the fan.

    Chris

  10. #35
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    For years, my mother has subscribed to Playboy. If my father is lucky he can read it when she is done. I remember growing up and searching for the bunny on the front cover. By the time I was in High School my parents let me read the magazine every month. I was taught to respect people for who they are and not what they look like and I think my parents did a good job.

    Currently I receive both Stuff and Maxim magazines, subscriptions bought for me by my Fiance. She usually reads them before I do and tells me about any neat articles. I read magazines from cover to cover just like books. There is some pretty entertaining stuff in these magazines and most has nothing to do with sex. The most entertaining articles to me are the ones about stupid criminals and similar stories. Yes they have pictures of models, actresses and other celebrities in there but these pictures are less revealing than what you will see in a Sport Illustrated Swimsuit Edition. By reading the articles you get to learn something about these people and their lives. When I see them working in a movie or something, I remember hey, she grew up in Iowa not anything sexual. The interviewees could be in a floor length trench coat and the articles would be just as revealing and interesting.

    But again that is my opinion.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Wayne: point understood...Playboy does not feature JUST naked women, and the other "guy" magazines have other useful content. That's all well and good, but my point still stands: from a Christian perspective, that is immoral. I don't think terribly ill of such people...everyone sins...yes, that includes ME.

    I didn't say there wasn't necessarily some well-written articles in Playboy...but I doubt thats what made it famous...

    Originally posted by aspen
    I really just have a problem with religious people proclaiming what is right and wrong. The worst crimes in history were done in the name of god. Most overtly religious people I know are arrogant and narrow minded. I think they left out a portion of the bible, the portion that teaches tolerance and acceptance of the beliefs of others.
    There is NOTHING wrong with religious people proclaiming what is right and wrong. In fact, you yourself are obviously proclaiming that viewing pornography is NOT wrong...so what's wrong with me saying that I think it is? You can disagree with me, but I don't think you should "have a problem" with me disagreeing with you.

    As for the "worst crimes in history"...I don't know about that, I'd probably have to disagree. Nevertheless, some truly terribly have been committed in the name of God...however as I've said many times before, that does not mean that I have to answer for their faults, or that God somehow approves of these.

    As for the untolerant Christians you know; I'm sorry you havn't met more understanding ones. I try to be open-minded...and I think I have been. I don't like people doing too much Bible-thumping either...I will say, however, that I dislike it when a Christian can't even argue his or her point for more than a second without someone claiming that they are "forcing their beliefs" on them...


  12. #37
    @russellg RussellG's Avatar
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    Actually some of the worst wars are caused by religion, even to this day people are fighting, and saying that there religion is the right one.

    I lost my faith in religion awhile back because of this.
    russell.cz.cc - coming soon (I promise!)

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Well, it can't be proven, but I'd wager that the secular world is responsible for more. Sorry to hear you've lost your faith - it's especially discouraging to hear that you've done so simply because people in the past have made mistakes...doesn't make the religion wrong.

  14. #39
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    I just have a big problem with organized religion, I think religion should be between someone and their god, it should be a personal thing.

    But my problem with christians lie in a couple of areas.

    • First I met this girl a few years ago who was really goth, one day all the bible thumping kids lined up near the door where she came into school and threw bibles at her.
    • The Christian Coalition sponsored this website that was dripping with blood and had everything you needed to assassinate abortion doctors on it, in fact it was basically a guide for doing it.
    • The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Witch Burnings, The holocaust, all of these things are examples of christians persecuting people of other religions.
    • a good friend of mine from highschool did a paper on buddhism and this arrogant christian girl asked him why he would do it on something evil.
    • Christians spend so much money every year converting the "heathens" to more civilized religions, why not just respect their beliefs and give them food anyways?
    • The pope has gold hubcaps on his golf cart.


    Online I dont have the benefit of facial expressions and tone of voice, so when you say "I dont go to porn sites because I am Christian" I can only assume you're trying to act superior, and I think you are. Perhaps if you would say "I wont go to porn sites because I think its immoral" it would be different, but it seems to me you're proud to be Christian, and before you say whats wrong with that remember its one of the seven deadly sins. Thats what the problem, pride, most christians I know are too proud of themselves to respect anything other than their own religion.

    I'm not buddhist or anything, I'm Christian, but I will never go to church again, and I dont believe everything the bible says. Like I believe the whole old testament isn't true, its just a book of allegories, stories meant to teach a moral lesson. But like I said, I think religion should be a private matter, so I abhor any public displays of it at all.

    Chris

  15. #40
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    Originally posted by aspen
    I think racism and hate crimes are bad.
    Why is a crime worse if it's motivated by hate? If I kill someone and it's not deemed to be hate motivated, aren't they still just as dead? And is it all hate, or just certain kinds of hate that society deems particularly offensive?

    Off topic, I know, but I've always questioned this....sorry.

  16. #41
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    Originally posted by aspen

    • The pope has gold hubcaps on his golf cart.
    Urban myth. See, it's quite fashionable to pick on the pope these days....someone did it earlier on in this thread as well. I for one, respect and admire him. He has devoted his entire life to the service of God and others. And, he took a bullet in the process. Anyone that slams the pope simply demonstrates their ignorance on the subject. He is universally regarded as one of the greatest men in history.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't think it makes any sense for Christianity to be solely a private matter. Do I think everyone should go around converting people 24 hours a day? No, not at all...but I feel its my duty to try to effect others for the better as a Christian. I do this through normal, civil conversation and such...I don't push people if they don't want to be pushed. If you truly believe in God, I don't see why you would want to keep it a "secret."

    Your bulleted list is a bit troubling...you're still going on about this instance or that instance of some Christian you know/knew/heard of who did something that was out of line. Like I've said: I can't defend Christians who act in an inappropriate way. Only thing I can say is that man is born into sin, and it takes an awful lot of work to come even remotely close to getting over it. You're going to have wackos and people doing terrible things in His name...unavoidable. It doesn't make God less likely to exist, or any less pure.

    I am in no way trying to act superior - I assure you of this. I mentioned being a Christian because that provides some background on why I think it is immoral. Obviously, if I'm a Christian, the reason why I think it is immoral is obvious...saves time in the long run.

    God commands us to go to church every Sunday...I don't...my family (including myself) enjoy sleeping in, and we miss church sometimes. Is it wrong? Yup...one day out of seven isn't too much to ask...especially when even then it's only 2 hours or so out of that day. Straight from The Book itself: "Remember the sabbath, and keep it Holy."

    Yes, pride can be a sin. The keyword is "can." Obviously there is nothing wrong with being proud to be a Christian...only something wrong with being overly proud to be a Christian. I don't think I'm overly proud or arrogant. I pay my respects and admit my faults to the Lord everyday...everything good comes from him; I truly believe that. I only feel fortunate to live the life I do in this day and age.

    I will agree on one point: far too many Christians are pompous, forceful, and narrow-minded. They give the religion a bad name at times...I only wish such people would change their ways. As of 1998, a little over 30% of the world was Christian in some degree or another...I feel that number would be much higher if these people you speak of did not exist. I do not think of the un-saved as evil (no moreso than every sinning human), but rather mis-guided, and perhaps (sometimes) uninformed of Christianity.

    You know how I spread the Gospel? I try to live a solid healthy life, to make myself a nice person to be around...I recall some Christian band singing a song called "Shine"...basically about how the best way to spread His Word is to shine through him...people will instinctively want to hear more about it. That's the way it should be...

    Again: I'm sorry that you've had bad experience with members of my religion...I cannot defend their actions...I can only hope that you'll come to the same conclusion I have: that Church is worth your time, despite the amount of ignorance that might be found sitting in the pews alongside of you.

    (/speech)

  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by joseph jaminet
    Originally posted by aspen

    • The pope has gold hubcaps on his golf cart.
    Urban myth. See, it's quite fashionable to pick on the pope these days....someone did it earlier on in this thread as well. I for one, respect and admire him. He has devoted his entire life to the service of God and others. And, he took a bullet in the process. Anyone that slams the pope simply demonstrates their ignorance on the subject. He is universally regarded as one of the greatest men in history.
    I also respect him. I don't know where he stands on everything...if it's true that he believes sex for anything OTHER than having children is a sin...then yes, I disagree with The Pope. It doesn't mean I can't respect and admire his incredible devotion to God.

    Side note on hate-crimes: I think of the term "hate crime" as simply a label people like to use to describe things...something that gets more attention than other things. I could be wrong, but I definelty get the impression that people like to play up racism, as if it's raging out of control...fact of the matter is I very rarely see any evidence of racism wherever I might be...I'm sure it is "alive and well", but I think we've made great strides in striking it down, and will continue to do so.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Originally posted by aspen
    I just have a big problem with organized religion, I think religion should be between someone and their god, it should be a personal thing.

    But my problem with christians lie in a couple of areas.

    • First I met this girl a few years ago who was really goth, one day all the bible thumping kids lined up near the door where she came into school and threw bibles at her.
    • The Christian Coalition sponsored this website that was dripping with blood and had everything you needed to assassinate abortion doctors on it, in fact it was basically a guide for doing it.
    • The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Witch Burnings, The holocaust, all of these things are examples of christians persecuting people of other religions.
    • a good friend of mine from highschool did a paper on buddhism and this arrogant christian girl asked him why he would do it on something evil.
    • Christians spend so much money every year converting the "heathens" to more civilized religions, why not just respect their beliefs and give them food anyways?
    • The pope has gold hubcaps on his golf cart.


    Online I dont have the benefit of facial expressions and tone of voice, so when you say "I dont go to porn sites because I am Christian" I can only assume you're trying to act superior, and I think you are. Perhaps if you would say "I wont go to porn sites because I think its immoral" it would be different, but it seems to me you're proud to be Christian, and before you say whats wrong with that remember its one of the seven deadly sins. Thats what the problem, pride, most christians I know are too proud of themselves to respect anything other than their own religion.

    I'm not buddhist or anything, I'm Christian, but I will never go to church again, and I dont believe everything the bible says. Like I believe the whole old testament isn't true, its just a book of allegories, stories meant to teach a moral lesson. But like I said, I think religion should be a private matter, so I abhor any public displays of it at all.

    Chris
    That's perfectly reasonable. I have never pretended I was better than you, I have simply find hardcore pornography immoral. This could be because of my comparatively 'sheltered' upbringing in rural isolation, it could be because the people I hang around with (even the non christians) frown up on it or it could be my religious standings.

    Please don't dislike me for having an opinion... remember, this forum is about making friends, the last thing I want to do is make enemies.

    I am willing to accept your view, even if you dont accept mine.

    peace aspen...

  20. #45
    SitePoint Enthusiast Jackman's Avatar
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    The great porn site debate.

    The Internet has opened up many business opportunities as well as a multitude of issues for the community to deal with.

    A porn site is generally looked upon as fairly easy money for miniminal effort.

    As a businessperson who has been asked to run a business for a person whose sole revenue stream was from a porn site I have had the opportunity of viewing the industry close up.

    Firstly, the moral/immoral issue in business. Doesn't really come into it. It's the provision of a supply to equal a demand. I guess every action is morally indifferent - it's the motivation that makes an action moral or immoral.

    The industry operates on exactly the same business principles/management issues as any other businessperson. A person running a porn site is a legitimate business-person with, quite often, exceptional business administration skills. It is a very difficult industry to profit from and, like all businesses, only the best survive.

    The business I reviewed was turning over just over $400,000 per month (from an initial capital outlay of $25,000).

    The difficulty with porn sites is that some do not address or recognise a potential problem through the viewing of sexuially explicit material by minors. And certainly some adults find certain images difficult to cope with.

    I think that enough research has been conducted to establish a direct correlation between porn/violence/etc with some inappropriate behaviour. But potential influences are so numerous these days that to blame just one thing would be dangerous.

    There has to be some safeguards but the issue of morality shouldn't come into it. Is it harmful for the person accessing it? Maybe, but who are we to censor what they view. People smoke, they know it kills them, but we don't demand they stop.

    I would expect that children of 14 are running porn sites. No doubt at all. But depending upon the individual circumstances, is it a truimph for the entrepreneurial spirit (it is a person supplying a demand after all), or a practice that will contribute to the decline of standards within the community?

    We may well be doing a lot worse to our kids with access to guns, drugs, etc.

    Geez I write long posts. Better stop now!

    Jackman

  21. #46
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    I don't think it makes any sense for Christianity to be solely a private matter.
    I don't think aspen was referring to Christianity, I beleive he said 'religion' meaning any other beleif as well. Maybe I beleive in little green men under my bed, its my religion, but I can't disagree with aspen - its between me and the little green men.

    For those of you who are interested I am posting a link to one of my favorite books, The Antichrist. Its a good analysis of Christianity and Buddism and religion in general. The book is quite controversial and could be viewed as offensive. If you think that a review of religion might offend you, dont click here.



  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    The Antichrist - a book by Nietschze (sp?), right? Man do I dislike him. He was severely disturbed...even hist biggest fans must admit as much.

    I think my statement applies, I believe aspen said he was a Christian...and of course, Christians are supposed to spread the Gospel. I could be wrong, but I'm nearly positive that it says as much in The Bible.

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Jackman: yes, there are plenty of things worse for someone to do than run a pornographic business...and yes, I'm sure they're profitable, intelligent businesses. I just think they're immoral.

  24. #49
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    I do not believe that religion, or any kind of education can come over natural instinct.
    Many great Phylosoph have interesting idea about this subject, as much as psychologist...

    You can control not to whistle when you see an attractive girl in the street, but you can hardly hide the fact that this girl did attract your attention.
    Now you are conscious or unconscious of it...but it's still here, and any discussion about religion or education will not change my mind. You see this girl in the street, and she attract your attention, you want to whistle to attract her attention, but you stop, because you know that it's not the way your mother (or anybody else) would like you to behave. At this exact moment education is taking over natural instinct!

    Concerning what is good or what is bad, i think that it's depending of the education of people, of their sensibility, and certainly much more.

    BTW, you can also see what happend with "people of God" and what they did, that will help you realize that even those who are supposed to behave better than anybody else are not protected from their natural instinct!




  25. #50
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't quite understand; are you AGREEING with me, or not? Of course instinct is powerful...if it wasn't, then Christians wouldn't be pushy at times, fights would never break out in the streets, and murders would be very rare...

    Instinct can be surpressed to a degree. Thats obvious. I don't think anyone will argue with me if I say, however, that curiousity about whether or not God exists is built into us.


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