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  1. #126
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I felt that I needed to answer some questions to defend the bible. I suggest that you grab yourself a Bible so that you can open up to certain chapters, because I will be referring to a lot of them from the Bible.

    I challenge everyone that has any doubts about the bible, to go to the chapters and see for yourselves.

    -----------------------
    Elledan
    Why should we trust the bible?
    Where comes the bible from, anyway?
    -----------------------

    There are several reasons why we should trust the Bible. That is a very good question, though. The big reason that I believe the bible is because of the fulfilled prophecies. I list three of those hundreds of prophecies that have been fulfilled below, that can be found in the bible.

    For example, Daniel (the prophet) predicted at about 538 B.C. (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel’s promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.

    Ezekiel 37:22, Isaiah 11:1, Luke 21:24 and several other chapters, predict the restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel as a true nation in the latter days. For almost 1,500 years this seemed utterly impossible, and yet we have now seen it fulfilled in our own generation.

    More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects.

    Yeah there are other prophecies from other people like Jeane Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them (which are pretty vague), but only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation.

    Another reason to believe what the bible says is the striking evidence of divine inspiration found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientists confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include the roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22), the law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7), the hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7), the vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22), the equivalence of matter and energy (Hebrews 1:3), the law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27), the paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11), the atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6), and many others.

    The remarkable structure of the Bible should also be noticed. Although it is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 or more different men over a period of 2,000 years, it is clearly one Book, with perfect unity and consistency throughout. The individual writers, at the time of writing, had no idea that their message was eventually to be incorporated into such a Book, but each nevertheless fits perfectly into place and serves its own unique purpose as a component of the whole. Anyone who diligently studies the Bible will realize that it can’t be explained by chance.

    I strongly believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

    ------------------------
    Elledan
    With this Noach guy and the flood, how can there ever have fallen more water than there was first on earth?
    ------------------------

    There are couple theories on this subject. Some creationists say that the earth was like a “Green House”, in that the waters that were held up by the sky were released onto all the earth, causing this worldwide flood.

    ------------------------
    Elledan
    Evolution

    no matter what you say about evolution, it is the truth. Yes, an amoebe can develope into a cow. No problem at all. It only takes a few billion years, but it has happened.
    ------------------------

    A lot of people are starting to believe this, and in fact a lot of teachers are teaching that evolution is a SCIENTIFIC FACT. I bet that most of you don't know that there is a significant number of scientists today (undoubtedly numbering in the thousands) who either reject the theory altogether or who regard it as a still unsettled issue.

    I am hear to tell you that that no theory of origins-evolution or special creation or anything else-can possibly be scientific. "Science" means "knowledge" and by definition means that which we actually KNOW concerning the facts of nature and their interrelationships. The very heart of the "scientific method" is the reproducibility of experiments. That is, if a certain process is observed and measured today, and then the experiment is conducted in the same way tomorrow, the same results should be obtained. In this way, by experimental repetition and verification, a scientific description of the process is eventually developed. Since it is impossible for us to repeat the supposed evolutionary history of the world and its inhabitants, and since NO human observers were present to observe and record the supposed evolutionary changes of the past, it is clear that evolution in the broad sense is beyond the reach of the scientific method.

    Take the last paragraph however you want, but don't deny the facts.

    I am not going to reply to some of the previous posts, just because I don't feel like I need to. If you are going to look for so called "errors", then you are obviously going to find them, no matter what it is.

    Obviously some of you don't know Christianity that well and are just bashing it for the hell of it, trying to make us look like we are idiots or something. I sure don't think any of you guys are idiots at all. I think everyone in this thread is very intelligent.

    I hope this doesn't turn into a flame, because that isn't what I am trying to do. Like I said earlier, I am not trying to offend anyone.

    Chris Roane

  2. #127
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by nitegold
    That's exactly my point

    I was just trying to point out that crosswire's view is actually the correct view, and that nobody should be surprised at all.

    Not really - I think we ALL know that when he said "alien" he meant a visitor from another planet - not a supernatural God.

    As for Chris (wsresource)'s recent post...I'm gonna grab a Bible and look through some of those verses...but whether or not you agree with him, the post was well written.

  3. #128
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan


    I want to make some sidenotes here:

    Buddhism is NOT a religion. It's a way to reach full understanding of what life is all about. There's no place for a god in Buddhism and Siddharta (Buddha) is not a god. He was just so lucky to be the founder of this teaching of life.

    What I see now, is that people are looking at Buddhism as another religion which was NOT the intention of Siddharta and this makes me feel sad.
    Buddhism is a religion, you do not have to have a "god" or a "supreme being" for something to be a religion. Buddhism is a religion, its classified as a religion, those who are buddhist are not buddhist christians or buddhist muslims, they are buddhist. And no Buddha is not god, but that doesn't make buddhism not a religion. And its more than a "way of life" it is also a system of beliefs, the belief in reincarnation, the belief in nirvana etc. Confuscianism (probably butchered the spelling) is an example of something that is a way of life and not a religion, but buddhism is most definitely a religion. And the most popular one in the world at that.

    Chris

  4. #129
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    He's absolutely right. Religion has been mutated to basically imply Christianity, or some other belief revolving around some sort of supreme being. If you're going by the standard definition, then even having no religion is a religion in and of itself.

  5. #130
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Be a Christian, a Muslim or whatever you want to be. Believe in the things you want. Do what you want.

    As long as you're not trying to convince other people that only your ideas are right and you're NOT irritating them by constantly saying things to them that are 'wrong' in their eyes, you're on the right track.

    Only if you're following the 'track' that seems to hold the most truth, you've the right to correct others.

    This all IMHO
    ------------------------

    The above is all a prelude to what I'm saying now:

    I do not believe the bible. The fact that the bible is 'just' a story that spans 2000 years makes it look a cruel joke in my eyes.

    If you know that the earth is billions of years old and the Human race only exists about 500,000 years, you'll understand that the whole bible story is looking pretty ridiculous. Wtf is 2,000 years when the earth exists for more than 500 billion years?
    ------------------------

    I do NOT want to convince you guys of the scientific view; I don't mind that you're having the same ideas as the people in the 17th century.

    Allas, it seems that I'm one of the few people on this forum who sees the truth of Darwin's research...

    'You guys keep on doing your stuff, while I'm following what I think is best, ok?'

    PS: Perfection is a curse since it would mean that no development, no matter how small, can be made or the system would change and possible collapse.
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  6. #131
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by aspen
    Originally posted by Elledan


    I want to make some sidenotes here:

    Buddhism is NOT a religion. It's a way to reach full understanding of what life is all about. There's no place for a god in Buddhism and Siddharta (Buddha) is not a god. He was just so lucky to be the founder of this teaching of life.

    What I see now, is that people are looking at Buddhism as another religion which was NOT the intention of Siddharta and this makes me feel sad.
    Buddhism is a religion, you do not have to have a "god" or a "supreme being" for something to be a religion. Buddhism is a religion, its classified as a religion, those who are buddhist are not buddhist christians or buddhist muslims, they are buddhist. And no Buddha is not god, but that doesn't make buddhism not a religion. And its more than a "way of life" it is also a system of beliefs, the belief in reincarnation, the belief in nirvana etc. Confuscianism (probably butchered the spelling) is an example of something that is a way of life and not a religion, but buddhism is most definitely a religion. And the most popular one in the world at that.

    Chris
    Yes, you butchered the confus... something name

    You're right, but it does sound rather strange: a religion without a 'God' to be afraid of...
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  7. #132
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan
    If you know that the earth is billions of years old and the Human race only exists about 500,000 years, you'll understand that the whole bible story is looking pretty ridiculous. Wtf is 2,000 years when the earth exists for more than 500 billion years?
    That's the thing: we don't know the Earth is billions of years old. Sorry to say; neither do you. NO ONE DOES!!!


    Originally posted by Elledan

    I do NOT want to convince you guys of the scientific view; I don't mind that you're having the same ideas as the people in the 17th century.

    Allas, it seems that I'm one of the few people on this forum who sees the truth of Darwin's research...
    Is that 17th century remark a jab at us? Sure seems that way. I can take it, I'm a big boy - just think that your statement is a contradiction yourself.

    It implies that people so early on could not have possibly understood everything and made a decision...however that also means that whatever you believe is wrong, since people in the future will have even more experience than we!


    Originally posted by Elledan

    PS: Perfection is a curse since it would mean that no development, no matter how small, can be made or the system would change and possible collapse.
    Perfection with humans? Yes. With God? I don't think so...

  8. #133
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    So you say Evolution isn't true? Its about as factual as gravity, as proven as gravity etc. In that area its fact. One of the principals of science is that nothing can ever be proven 100% true, could we one day find evidence that gravity doesn't work like we think? Yup. Could we one day find evidence the disproves evolution? Yup. But they're both facts right now.

    Anything you read in the bible needs to be taken with a grain of salt, remember it was not written by god, but by man, and also remember that man tends to embellish things. This is especially true with the old testament. Do I think that life originated in the garden of eden in what is now Iraq? Hell no. Do I think Jonah was swallowed by a whale? Nope. Do I think Sodom and Grimora were destroyed by raining fire? Not on your life. Do I think that the old testament is a collection of allegories passed down through generations for 100s if not 1000s of years in order to teach moral lessons? Absolutely.

    Now more specifically on the issue of creationism and evolution. I think people who take genesis literally have a problem. Evolution is scientific fact, Creationism is scientific fallacy. However That Evolution is fact does in no way shape or form mean there is not a god, or that christianity is the "Wrong" religion. All it means is that the first part of the bible, which was written by men, which before it was written was verbally passed down, should not be taken literally.

    In fact the pope agrees with me.

    On october 23rd, 1996 he made an address to the Pontificlal Academy of Sciences

    News Report on it:
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ext...pe_102596.html

    Translation of it: http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/message.htm

    Commentary on it:

    http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm

    Chris

  9. #134
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by aspen
    So you say Evolution isn't true? Its about as factual as gravity, as proven as gravity etc. In that area its fact. One of the principals of science is that nothing can ever be proven 100% true, could we one day find evidence that gravity doesn't work like we think? Yup. Could we one day find evidence the disproves evolution? Yup. But they're both facts right now.

    Anything you read in the bible needs to be taken with a grain of salt, remember it was not written by god, but by man, and also remember that man tends to embellish things. This is especially true with the old testament. Do I think that life originated in the garden of eden in what is now Iraq? Hell no. Do I think Jonah was swallowed by a whale? Nope. Do I think Sodom and Grimora were destroyed by raining fire? Not on your life. Do I think that the old testament is a collection of allegories passed down through generations for 100s if not 1000s of years in order to teach moral lessons? Absolutely.

    Now more specifically on the issue of creationism and evolution. I think people who take genesis literally have a problem. Evolution is scientific fact, Creationism is scientific fallacy. However That Evolution is fact does in no way shape or form mean there is not a god, or that christianity is the "Wrong" religion. All it means is that the first part of the bible, which was written by men, which before it was written was verbally passed down, should not be taken literally.

    In fact the pope agrees with me.

    On october 23rd, 1996 he made an address to the Pontificlal Academy of Sciences

    News Report on it:
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ext...pe_102596.html

    Translation of it: http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/message.htm

    Commentary on it:

    http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm

    Chris
    I've said before I don't always agree with The Pope. No, not all of the Bible should be taken literally. I don't believe I've ever said it should, either.

    Evolution is not as proven as gravity - to say is amazingly absurd. I'll tell you what, though: I'm sure that they really THINK they found something. You can't be objective when the more things you "discover" the more money you make. I've yet to see proof - my eyes are open: show it to me!

  10. #135
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Oh by the way...it says there is a debate over the translation...and even if that tilts in "your favor"...I think it could easily mean that some form of evolution exists. I think we can easily assume that The Pope is not acknowleding belief in something contrary to The Bible!

    A quote from one of your links:

    ---------------------
    Q: Does this mean that the pope was endorsing evolution?

    A: Actually, no. The CNS story has it right when it says: "His point was that evolution was now accepted by a wide range of scientific disciplines doing independent research."
    ---------------------

    He's saying that a lot of people are starting to believe it...that's all.


    [Edited by TWTCommish on 09-02-2000 at 03:59 PM]

  11. #136
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    'Although it may seem hard, it is possible to find thy way in the dark. Thou would not be forever lost in the dark, unless thou choose so."
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  12. #137
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    "You are my lamp, O Lord; the Lord turns my darkness into light.

    - 2 Samuel 22:29

  13. #138
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Hmm... lol I think that you've got a point there...
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  14. #139
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Hehehe - I just couldn't resist.

    Was your quote something you wrote? Sounded Bible-esque.

  15. #140
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    One man's darkness is another ones light.

    Everything is subjective.

  16. #141
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    One question (important this time) :

    Is it allowed for a Christian to reach immortality in this life? (IE, for example by using a technology which replaces the weak and unreliable Human body with a much more powerful and more reliable artificial body.)
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  17. #142
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Hehehe - I just couldn't resist.

    Was your quote something you wrote? Sounded Bible-esque.
    That's the way I like to write

    I enjoy reading books like 'The Lord Of The Rings' and especially Old English seems very beautiful to me.

    I've read some poems of Allan Edgar Poe for example and I like them all.
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  18. #143
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Odd question...I really don't know! One part of me wants to say that life is sacred and should not be touched.

    I know where you're going: If I say it is, then you'll point out that medical science has already helped us to live longer than we used to. The answer would probably have to be a not-so-resounding "it depends." It's a vague question really...I would not want to become a cyborg...but yes, I think it's okay for someone to, say, have a mechanical heart to try to live. I would not, however, consider breast implants or anything of the sort to be moral...doing so for your health seems to tbe the only viable reason to me.

    There's a fuzzy line somewhere I'm sure on when it becomes wrong...but I'm not ashamed to admit that I don't know where that line is for sure!

  19. #144
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    'What if doubt clouds thy thoughts? Will thou be unable to take the decision that is right, or will someone shed his light and make thou thoughts be free of doubt?'
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  20. #145
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

    Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

    Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

    John - 20:27-29

  21. #146
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    At this rate, how long would it take you to copy the bible?


    Ok, I'm off now... it's 11:48 here now and I'm kinda tired... But maybe I'll continue tomorrow writing those poems
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  22. #147
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    -----------------
    Elledan
    Is it allowed for a Christian to reach immortality in this life? (IE, for example by using a technology which replaces the weak and unreliable Human body with a much more powerful and more reliable artificial body.)
    -----------------

    I don't have a problem with that, but if the Bible is correct and if it is indeed true, I highly doubt that God would allow man to ever reach that point on earth. I mean, that was the whole point of God's curse, that we would all die. And so far, that has been the case.

    I knew exactly what your guys' reply was going to be. But I bet you if you were able to wipe away all your past assumptions about everything, you would agree with some of what I said. But then again, that is just my opinion.

    Offcourse all the people who don't believe in Creation are going to say that Evolution is fact, but such is life. I have never met any athiest or I should say "anti-creationist", who has ever admitted that I may have a point. The fact of the matter is, that I do have a point (believe it or not). Believe evolution, believe creation.....all I ask is that you look at things as a whole, instead of bringing previous accusations that may make something look totally out of proportion.

    You are right, Aspen, about how things in science cannot be proven 100% true. However, we can be 100% sure that gravity does exist right now, even though we might find out that it works a little differently in the future. And as for "evolution being as factual as gravity", that is something you are going to have to deal with. That would be like me saying that God does exist and everyone that doesn't agree with me is as blind as a bat.

    Evolution is a THEORY and nothing more and nothing less. Just like any other religion, it require some amount of faith. I could bring up some factual information about how life might not have evolved, but I don't think that will help this discussion anymore.

    I will agree that evolution does take place, but not from one organism to a totally different organism. It is auvious that animals can adapt to their environment, but we have yet to see anything change dirastically, in human history or anywhere else.

    Great passage, Christopher.

    This discussion is going along great, IMO. People are acting civilized with a very controversial subject, and I really like that.

    Chris Roane

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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    See ya later Elledan - I've had a lot of fun. Your quotations were very impressive.

    Well said Chris - and thanks for the complement.

    I wonder how much longer this thing will go? Elledan and I extended it over the last page and a half so far...it's already the most viewed/active thread in SitePoint's history...when will it end?

  24. #149
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Something else on the earlier debate over whether or not pornography/lust are sins for Christians...

    DeadlySins.com describes Lust this way:

    "Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body."

    I definetly agree with that defintion. If you're like me, you'll need the definition of "inordinate too.

    - Exceeding reasonable limits; immoderate. See Synonyms at excessive.
    - Not regulated; disorderly.

    You can argue about it from different world views...but there is NO QUESTION that, for Christians, lust and pornography are sinful.

  25. #150
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    hehehe, I totally forgot what this thread was originally based on.

    I definately don't think young teenagers should be looking at, or creating pornographic sites.

    In the Bible, it is pretty clear that impure things are sinful, and it also states that lusting for a maried women (or vise-versa) is a sin. Now the only reason I think pornography is wrong, is because it degrades the womens body. I personally don't think looking at a womens body for pleasure, is a great way to show that you appreciate their figures. Now if you look at a pornographic magazine for different reason, then that is different, IMO.

    After Adam and Eve sinned, they noticed that they were naked, and they ran to cover themselves up because they felt ashamed. Ever since then, the majority of the human population has worn clothing, to cover themselves up (or atleast some of their body), because they've always felt awkward when they didn't wear clothes (or a certain type of a clothe) in front of people they didn't know too well.

    That is just my opinion, and that doesn't necessarily say that all Christians should believe what I believe. In fact, I know a few Christians who do look at pornography.

    Do I think that is wrong? Yes.
    Do I think that they are any less of a person because they look at that type of thing? No.
    Am I still friends with any non-Christians or Athiests? Yes, and I find it very offensive when someone doesn't like someone just because of their beliefs. All my friends are my friends because we get along and have fun together. Their beliefs don't make any difference, and I don't try to convert them all the time like some of you think I might do.

    Chris Roane


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