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  1. #51
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cyberbrain
    Concerning what is good or what is bad, i think that it's depending of the education of people, of their sensibility, and certainly much more.
    Well, without a Creator, there IS no absolute right and wrong - only the general consensus of those around us. I've met somewhat retarded people who have more morals than people who would easily qualify for inclusion to MENSA...I'm not sure if I'd agree that a person's moral behavoir is largely determined by their intelligence...I think base morals are part of our instinict...as is sin...sometimes one wins out, sometimes the other does.

  2. #52
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    No, i do not agree...
    What i want to say is that whatever your religion, or your education, fear.... you always have to deal with your natural instinct before to moderate them (or not)with your education, religion.... And of course the way you moderate your instinct is different depending of your religion, sensibility....
    If in a certain situation your natural instinct are really strong, there is chance for that your education do not get any way to control you anymore.
    You can find a lot of exemple, your wife cheating on you, somebody attacking your family, you want to visit a porn site...and so on.
    Your natural instinct dicte you something, and you try to control it, but sometimes people can't, it's too strong. And the guy who was not suppose top kill anybody killed his wife because he find her with an other man on bed!
    That's just like that.
    Like perhaps one day you will say, "what's the hell, it's just a porn site after all! And i receive so much junk mail sending me there, it's not my fault!"
    You see what i mean? ( I'm sorry for the exemple, i do not mean you in particular, but just a human being! )

    Did it sound a little bit more clar now ??? .

  3. #53
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Very clear...and don't worry, I don't take offense at your comments. In fact, if I understand correctly, then I agree 100%! I don't see how it is conflicting to believe in natural instinct and Christianity...if you see your wife in bed with another man, your natural instinct is likely to try to make you harm that man in one way or another...if you had an upbringing lacking in morals, you might do so without thinking twice...etc.

  4. #54
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    yes, i agree with you, however everybody will not think like you or me. Some people have not problem seing there wife with somebody else (yes, can sound stange, but i did met some people like that!) And after all why not. There is nothing who make sens about monogamy! Just look the discovery channel and you will see that there is not a lot of mamifere who are monogame.
    But I also think that you should try to see things from a different window sometimes. I do not mean that you should forget about religion, or your education, but sometimes trying to be somebody else and trying to think from a different point of view can be really interesting and certainly help people talking an undertand each other insted of fighting.

  5. #55
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    The pope does have gold hubcaps on his golfcart thing. It has 3 rows of seats and gold hubcaps, I've saw a story about it on the news when he got it. Then I've seen pictures of the vatican as well, and i can't help but think that if saving the worlds hungry was that important to them they'd use some of that massive wealth to do it.

    Chris

  6. #56
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    yeah aspen i agree with you, but you know, talking like that we can hurt the sensibility of people. How can we believe that "god" didn't find any other way than to give power to human to exploit other human.
    How God who is "right and so nice" can let people kill other to teach them which god is better???
    It's a lot of question, but i do not think that this kind of discussion will take us far. that will just hurt people, and there is no way to be constructive if we begin seeing things this way.

  7. #57
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    The Antichrist - a book by Nietschze (sp?), right? Man do I dislike him. He was severely disturbed...even hist biggest fans must admit as much.

    I think my statement applies, I believe aspen said he was a Christian...and of course, Christians are supposed to spread the Gospel. I could be wrong, but I'm nearly positive that it says as much in The Bible.
    He might have been disturbed, but I see the validity of his points

  8. #58
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by aspen
    The pope does have gold hubcaps on his golfcart thing. It has 3 rows of seats and gold hubcaps, I've saw a story about it on the news when he got it. Then I've seen pictures of the vatican as well, and i can't help but think that if saving the worlds hungry was that important to them they'd use some of that massive wealth to do it.

    Chris
    I agree. If the vatican made their religious treasures available to be viewed by the world they could make more than enough money to feed the hungry and clothe the poor, which is the ultimate goal of Christ's message - "Raising up those around you to live a better life". If we could do that then the world would be a better place. Instead everyone wants their Lexus, Rolex and a 52" television.

    My Opinions on Christianity
    I go to a Universalist Unitarian church every Sunday and take my kids. It is not even my religion but I go to get other peoples views on faith. The church is non-judgemental and they don't care what your religion is as long as you are a morally upstanding person who works to help the world around you. Every week Buddhists, Muslims, Pagans, Christian's and others gather at this church to learn about living life to better mankind not better oneself.

    This is how it should be but many others don't see it that way and would rather try and make me conform to their wishes. I have a "No Solicitors" sign on my front door. Everyone abides by it except the local Baptist church. They tell me, "We are not solicitors, but are messengers of God. If you do not listen to us then we fear for your immortal soul.". This is the same church that had some high ranking officials get arrested for soliciting prostitution, drugs, petty larceny and other felony charges. Sorry I don't want them even thinking about me or my family.

    This same church just spent millions of dollars building a new building with a 2500 seat auditorium. They plan on adding other amenities such as a private seminary and dormitories and yet they have no plans to supply any beds for the homeless or a soup kitchen for the poor and elderly.

    If I tried to open a "insert religion here" bookstore and it wasn't Christian, it would be closed where I live because its immoral. Even if the only books I sold were the Torah and Koran, it would be closed.

    There is a store in my town called "The Witches Brew". It sells primarily teas and fresh herbs along with tea sets. It also sells gothic items similar to a lot of stuff found in Mall stores like Hot Topic or Spencers Gifts. These include crystals, pewter figurines, sterling silver, incense, t-shirts and bumper stickers. These are things you can find at almost any gift store in the United States. The local Christian Coalition is trying to shut her down because she has the word "Witch" in the store name and because of that she is corrupting the local youths. Things like this are wrong.

    Combine this with current movements for public prayers in school (Isn't a period of silent reflection enough?), putting the ten commandments in schools and public buildings

    It is experiences like these that make non-christians ruffle when you proudly declare your religion. It seems as your trying to make others feel inferior because it has to be declared so often. It makes one feel as a substandard human being and a lower class because there is no tolerance on a large scale within the Christian community.

    If you do in fact have tolerance within you as a Christian than you have to make the change to make non-christians feel more welcome. This means tolerating choice, understanding that there is more than one path to a good life and most importantly honoring and loving your neighbor to make a better world.
    Wayne Luke
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  9. #59
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    Originally posted by wluke

    This is how it should be but many others don't see it that way and would rather try and make me conform to their wishes. I have a "No Solicitors" sign on my front door. Everyone abides by it except the local Baptist church. They tell me, "We are not solicitors, but are messengers of God. If you do not listen to us then we fear for your immortal soul.". This is the same church that had some high ranking officials get arrested for soliciting prostitution, drugs, petty larceny and other felony charges. Sorry I don't want them even thinking about me or my family.
    (Just a quick note on baptists)
    Not all baptists are like that - normally I think it's the GC baptists that do that sorta thing. I go to an American Baptist church, and we're nothing like that. Just a quick note...

  10. #60
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by wluke
    Combine this with current movements for public prayers in school (Isn't a period of silent reflection enough?), putting the ten commandments in schools and public buildings
    I personally think you should be allowed to meditate, pray, chant, whatever in public school as long as its not disturbing anyone. And I do mean "disturb"...no complaints about how someone else's religion makes you "uncomfortable"...only religion that makes me uncomfortable is that of some sort of satanic cult.

    I will say this: our country was OBVIOUSLY founded with a belief in God...it's on our currency and evident in many other places...they ought to change those things before they start complaining about the "seperate of church and state"...as has been said before; under their logic, the constitution is un-constitutional!

  11. #61
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Although I'm more a Buddhist than anything else, I've nothing with Religion.

    My believe is Technology.

    This is the only thing in life that seems useful to me and therefore all other things are less, or unimportant.

    This also means that I see Porn/sex as one of the greatest weaknesses of the Human species. It may be useful for keeping the Human race alive, but most of the time thoughts of sex only distracts Humans and keeps them from their work.

    I could now start a long article about all of the weaknesses of Humans, but I won't (unless someone asks for it)
    For now I'll just say that I don't enjoy being human, my dream is to have my current body replaced by a totally artificial (Bionic) body.

    That's it for now.
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  12. #62
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    I did receive a catholic education, in private school in france.
    That have been many years of frustration and questions. Because if the bible is answering to a lot of questions that people can ask themsleves, it was not for me.

    During all this years at school i had problem because i didn't wanted to agree with thoses people who tried to put me on their molden. No way that's work for me, it have been the contrary. At the end of that i was not even allowed to go to cateschism classes with my other friends since i was "dangerous", in the way that i wasn't eating all that they were giving me but that i was asking question and even finding some Problems in what they were saying.
    To me that have been the first proof that they were not saying the truth.

    Let's make a little experiment, ask a young children who have no religious education how he imagine a god. He will certainly imagine something really powerfull, strong... not the son of God on a cross! What a bad image!
    At least not the image i can have of a god! A pokemon would be a better image to me than jesus on a cross!

    This only thing make it wrong to me. There is also some good book out there talking about religion. But be carefull, i'm not talking about the Bible. I'm talking about people who wanted to know more about WHY a Bible, why a Coran, why this, why that...
    They did put back everything in historical context. And a lot of it make sens. Like Christians are supposed to eat fish on friday. That a strange thing, why that? It could be explained that at this time, people were obligated to sell and buy stuff to provide for themsleves. People who were fisherman needed to sell their fish! so....That can be a good explaination.
    Why musulms can not eat Porc? Because in their countries(north africa..and others) if's pretty hot. Like you all know porc is a meat who turn bad pretty fast. Mostly if the weather is hot. A lot of people get sick eating it, so it was a good way to protect people from dying or being sick.
    The exemples i chosed are not the best, but it's all that i had in mind. Try to take a look at that and you will see that i really make a lot of sens.

    When it was no law like we know them are they are now. People needed to give other people some moral value, somes rules is they did not wanted everything to end up in anarchy! Religion have been a good thing.
    That's how i see religion. Religion to me is only human giving rules to other humans. And those who give the rules take the profit of it.

    You are asking how to promote your web site, how to get traffic, how to evetually make money. Just take a look at the bible, it's certainly the smartest advertiser who develop this concept. Look at it that way, and you will see, it's really powerfull.

    An other thing, in USA i have been visited many time by different churches...why not, but the thing is that they want people to give money to support the church...you are obligated to do so if you do not want people to look bad at you!
    What this? In USA it sound to me that churches are real business. That make absolutely no sens to me. I don't want to hear from somebody acting this way!

    It's not always the same in europe. In france for example, i know that there is some communautees who make money. But they make it from their work, they do not make people feel so bad that they are obligated to give some money!
    People give money if they want to. And truely, you do not find a lot of people going to church in france. They have better things to do. At least to them it sound like better things.

    To me any kind of religion is a molden, and i certainly do not want be lost on this!
    I'm happy to be free to wear what i want, to decide for myself if it's bad to wacth porn site or not.....
    I do not consider having a particular religion, but i do have a moral. My own. Based on what sound right to me, on what i would not like people to do to me... And in accordance with the law in the country i'm living in.

    That's just this simple to me.

  13. #63
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I have a somewhat different view of things...

    I, too, found flaws and problems with a church I was going to and with organized religion...rather than stray from God, I simply believe what I believe...as in, I respect The Pope and what he stands for, but that doesn't mean I defend all of his views or share all of his stances.

    I knew there were flaws (we'd be less than humans if the church had none), but I also knew that I truly believed in Jesus Christ...I found no reason to give up Christianity because of these differences...I'm very happy with my lifestyle right now...I don't pretend to believe things I don't believe, or to agree with things I don't agree with, and yet I still believe in the bedrock principles Christianity stands for.

    I just hope you all don't let the mistakes of the church and any Christians you might have met effect you...are there plenty of them? You bet...but it does not reflect on what the faith truly stands for.

  14. #64
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I didn't stray from the Divine. I believe Christ had very valid points on how to live your life. I worship differently and have different beliefs but I still have faith and know that there will be consequences for my actions.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  15. #65
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I was basically referring to anyone who has given up religion because of the faults of other Christians/etc around them. Most of the athiests I speak with list that as one of the reasons they don't believe in God...

  16. #66
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Nice post Wayne.

    Chris

  17. #67
    SitePoint Enthusiast Daniel's Avatar
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    I hadn't read any of this post until half an hour ago, and as I read through the replies, quite a few strong emotions have been boiling up inside me. So I feel that I need to share these with you.

    Firstly, let me refer back to the original issue of porn on the Net. OK so this might shock some of you, but one of my best friends downloads porn daily. He told me last week that the entire cost of his Net surfing (since the start of the year) was over 1,000. Fortunately for him, his dad pays for his phone bills. All he does on the Net is look for porn. That is probably about 800 hours of porn in a seven month period. Not to mention what he looks at offline.

    This guy is one of my best friends. He is extremely smart and shares my point of view in many areas. And I don't think that because he has such a huge desire for porn, he is evil and immoral. Come on guys, all teenage boys have a huge desire for sex. So he can't get what he wants in real life, so he gets it from the Net. I do not believe that he is breaking any religious rule, just a law set by puritanical Christians.

    One of my teachers last year was a Reverand for the Church of Ireland (a protestant Christian denomination). Now as part of our GCSE course we were required to do a short course in Christian morality. We used a text book specifically set for the Northern Ireland syllabus. Both this text book and my teacher (who remember is a Reverand) agreed that there was nothing morally wrong with looking at pornographic material (as long as you are over the legal age, of course). I honestly think the laws are stupid anyway, as the one time when people are very likely to have a desire for porn is at the time of adolescense.

    So I must now move on to the topic of Christianity. I personally think that this is the most twisted and corrupted religion in existance today. I am not saying it's a bad religion; in fact this guy Jesus seems to be a very moral and helpful person. But I do think that nearly all Christian churches are corrupted.

    So I live in Northern Ireland. You must all know of the terrible violence that occurs over here. Apparently (although it has always baffled me), our troubles are all based on religion. But in fact, they were never based on religion. To cut a long story short, the Scottish decided to take a little bit of Ireland and the Irish got annoyed. Nothing to do with religion. It just so happened that the Scottish were Protestant and the Irish were Catholic. I was brought up as a Protestant myself, so I know exactly what is wrong with the Catholic church - namely, they are more interested in your money than in your faith. I also know what is wrong with the Protestant church - it's too strict. But in Northern Ireland, it's not about that. All the major churches here are obsessed with the political situation. This put me off the Christian church completely. And I also think it's the reason why nobody else has any hope in this church either.

    I am glad to see that this view is shared all over the world because it's about time this lunacy was stopped.
    Daniel Irvine
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  18. #68
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Once again; I don't think that it makes total sense to reject a religion because of those corrupted around you. Obviously they don't reflect the true spirit of the Faith. As for this "Reverend"...he is mistaken. You can say it's not immoral to look at pornography, but if you believe the Bible you cannot say so truthfully...it's obviously done in lust, and therefore is a sin...no debate there whatsoever.

    I don't think your friend is evil either...I do think, however, that he has a bit of a problem (I think most people would agree), and that what he's doing is immoral.

  19. #69
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    Side note on hate-crimes: I think of the term "hate crime" as simply a label people like to use to describe things...something that gets more attention than other things. I could be wrong, but I definelty get the impression that people like to play up racism, as if it's raging out of control...fact of the matter is I very rarely see any evidence of racism wherever I might be...I'm sure it is "alive and well", but I think we've made great strides in striking it down, and will continue to do so.

    Have you ever been a racial minority for any length of time? Just because you do not see racism does not mean it does not exist to a greater extent than you think.

  20. #70
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I didn't say I had seen it all...what I said say, however, is that I think we've made great strides in the right direction...I think that much is obvious. And, like I said, I think "hate crime" is just a label people like to use for on inparticular reason.

  21. #71
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    Well, without a Creator, there IS no absolute right and wrong - only the general consensus of those around us.
    With a "creator" there is no absolute right and wrong. I'm not sure where certain religions come upon the idea that religion created morality and right and wrong. Animals do not have religion and they also do not have wars. Where did they get there sense of right and wrong?

    Right and wrong are determined by subjective societal and peronal beliefs.


  22. #72
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    With a "creator" there is no absolute right and wrong. I'm not sure where certain religions come upon the idea that religion created morality and right and wrong. Animals do not have religion and they also do not have wars. Where did they get there sense of right and wrong?

    Right and wrong are determined by subjective societal and peronal beliefs.
    Isn't it obvious? If there is someone who created the universe, then that being can truly set the "ground rules" for what is right and wrong. Animals do not have wars because they do not gather into countries...they have fights and battles and kill each other...just not in large numbers, because they don't have a structure of government like we do where just one person can order a massive attack.

    It's plain and simple: with God, there is an ABSOLUTE right and wrong...which I believe in. Without a God, right and wrong are merely opinions, or a consensus that society reaches...and nothing more.

  23. #73
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    How can there be an "absolute" right and wrong when no two people can totally agree on precisely what is right and what is wrong? Do you know what is absolutey right and what is not? This is not a black and white world we live in.


  24. #74
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    Unfortunately LuZeR is right, if you have never been a minority you probably dont see, or see as much, racism. I have, its out there.

    On the issue of Christianity being corrupt I have a question. If the majority of those who belong to this religion are corrupt, isnt there something wrong with the religion? Surely, the people see it somewhere and adopt it to their lives.

    I have a lot of questions about this religion. How come human body is all of a sudden dirty and shameful? How is sex (which is nothing but a natural instinct) immoral? How are human instincts and desires have to be suppresed? This makes it a religion of what? Not love...

  25. #75
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    It's plain and simple: with God, there is an ABSOLUTE right and wrong...which I believe in. Without a God, right and wrong are merely opinions, or a consensus that society reaches...and nothing more.
    [/B]
    What is absolute right and wrong? Care to define it? Please?


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