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  1. #26
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Ok, let the Wars begin, I give up

    One thing that keeps surprising me is the fact that you can get demos of DreamWeaver, Netobjects Fusion and non-WYSIWYG editors everywhere, while a demo of FP2k can only be bought at the microsoft site. Are they so scared that nobody will buy it after having tried it?

    I know that FP2k is a HUGE program and that not every modem-user will download it, but heh, some people have a faster connection

    I've heard that sometimes demos are given away when you subscribe by an ISP and that you get a demo free with each CD of Office 2000 that you buy. So that ain't free demos either...

    Microsoft has made me suspicious again... Were are they after this time...
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  2. #27
    BoOm-Rocka! Smarky's Avatar
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    Microsoft knows no one will buy it if they try it out first so they charge for the trial to at least make some money out of it
    Garlic bread, I've tasted it, it's the future

  3. #28
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Hello,

    I'm going to compare MS FrontPage 2000 to Dreamweaver3 (not the other way around) so you guys finally see how good FP2000 is...

    Good Points:
    • Price: FP2000 is 30% less expensive than DW3
    • Packet: FP2000 also has a Graphic program and GIF animator
    • Customizability: You can change every little detail in FP2000, regarding looks and coding of FP2000.
    • Compability: You can set FP2000 to only produce code that works in certain browsers and versions of browsers
    • Preview functionality: You only need one click to preview in MS IE and 2 to preview in NetScape or WebTV.
    • Extra features: WebBots, templates, extensive help file, etc etc
    • MS Office interface


    Bad points:
    • No SSI support
    • Limited HTML edit mode


    Many of you think FP2000 produces bad and crappy code and that it reformats code you typed. Well you should know you can turn the HTML reformating off in the Tools menu. You can also set a default font which will make FP2000 not include all the <font> tags.

    The development of FP2000 has taken over a year and it is quite stable. Also the guys in Redmond make Internet Explorer so they know how a browser works.

    What I've seen in DW3 is that it displays the page like it will appear in NetScape. Well we all know the rendering engine of NS isn't that good and that IE displays pages much cleaner. I think the editor needs his own display and not just the NS one. FP2000 doesn't display pages like IE. It is an editor with no background. It won't produce code which is better for any browser because you can set for which browser to code.

    FP2000 also has ASP support ( although restricted ) and many many Wizards to easily create pages within minutes.

    My conclusion is: FP2000 has features for beginners as advanced as professionals. DW3 lacks on a userfriendly interface. Flash4 looks completely different than DW although a Macromedia product. They should do their interface same in all their programs like Adobe and Microsoft do.

    Christophe

  4. #29
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Originally posted by velocity
    Microsoft knows no one will buy it if they try it out first so they charge for the trial to at least make some money out of it
    Microsoft has many users who upgrade automatically. Why should they put a trial? Only increases chances on being listed at Warez sites, etc etc...

    Christophe

  5. #30
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan
    Ok, let the Wars begin, I give up

    One thing that keeps surprising me is the fact that you can get demos of DreamWeaver, Netobjects Fusion and non-WYSIWYG editors everywhere, while a demo of FP2k can only be bought at the microsoft site. Are they so scared that nobody will buy it after having tried it?

    I know that FP2k is a HUGE program and that not every modem-user will download it, but heh, some people have a faster connection

    I've heard that sometimes demos are given away when you subscribe by an ISP and that you get a demo free with each CD of Office 2000 that you buy. So that ain't free demos either...

    Microsoft has made me suspicious again... Were are they after this time...
    The cost of the demo is like 5 or 6 dollars. This includes shipping and handling of the software to your home on CD. The actual demo software is free.

    Personally if I had to download any of these demos on a modem, I wouldn't. I would rather pay the 6 dollars and have it mailed to me. My time is worth a lot more than that and by downloading these programs, it just wastes time. Most demos I have tried, I have gotten off of demo CD's that come with Magazines. Some of these "demos" are 50 to 100 megs in download size and that is just ridiculous. If the fact that Microsoft makes you pay for shipping and handling on a free demo that most people are going to hack and not purchase anyway bothers you then don't purchase it, plain and simple.

    Plus Office 2000 Professional and higher includes Frontpage within the purchase price. It is not a Demo. For the price of $400-600, you can get 9 professional applications in Office 2000 Pro. These are applications that cost between $129 and 300 a piece. If that makes you suspicious, I think your watching too many conspiracy theories.

    Sometimes ISP's and magazines give away CD's with demos of Dreamweaver as well.. Guess those aren't free either. Your not paying for the demos your paying for the service.

    p.s. There wouldn't be any wars if you just realized that everyone works in a different way and that by having different tools at our disposal, everyone can prosper. It doesn't matter what software you use, they are all just tools for you to do your work. If Dreamweaver works for you then by all means use it. If Frontpage is more your style than use it. If another program is your bag of tea, then by all means use it. The software does not matter when you miss your due date, the client is only going to see you. Maybe if the Dreamweaver fanatics would stop saying that Frontpage is no good (and vice versa) then you wouldn't have these wars. Maybe if everyone concentrated on building websites you could come up with some interesting concepts and ideas on how to use either program.

    All in all it doesn't come down to what package is used to create a website, all that matters is the presentation in the browser and getting those visitors to return.

    [Edited by wluke on 08-30-2000 at 08:10 AM]
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  6. #31
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by freesources
    Hello,

    I'm going to compare MS FrontPage 2000 to Dreamweaver3 (not the other way around) so you guys finally see how good FP2000 is...

    Good Points:
    • Price: FP2000 is 30% less expensive than DW3
    • Packet: FP2000 also has a Graphic program and GIF animator
    • Customizability: You can change every little detail in FP2000, regarding looks and coding of FP2000.
    • Compability: You can set FP2000 to only produce code that works in certain browsers and versions of browsers
    • Preview functionality: You only need one click to preview in MS IE and 2 to preview in NetScape or WebTV.
    • Extra features: WebBots, templates, extensive help file, etc etc
    • MS Office interface


    Bad points:
    • No SSI support
    • Limited HTML edit mode
    • Price doesn't mean anything. You can't say how good a program is when you look at the price
    • The image and gif editor are nice to have, but they're nothing compared with 'real' image and gif editors
    • You can add new tags, scripts and automate processes in DW
    • This function doesn't always work. DW tries to render code that'll be compatible with ALL browsers
    • You can have up to two browsers under a hotkey under DW and create a list of all the browsers on your PC. It is also possible to edit in a certain resolution
    • Those 'extra' features are the source of most complains regarding FP
    • Not anyone likes the Office interface for a HTML editor

    • SSI support is available in DW. You can choose to switch off this function or parse only certain tags while coding
    • In DW you have full access to the HTML code


    Many of you think FP2000 produces bad and crappy code and that it reformats code you typed. Well you should know you can turn the HTML reformating off in the Tools menu. You can also set a default font which will make FP2000 not include all the <font> tags.

    The development of FP2000 has taken over a year and it is quite stable. Also the guys in Redmond make Internet Explorer so they know how a browser works.
    IE is known to render pages that contain badly formatted HTML

    What I've seen in DW3 is that it displays the page like it will appear in NetScape. Well we all know the rendering engine of NS isn't that good and that IE displays pages much cleaner. I think the editor needs his own display and not just the NS one. FP2000 doesn't display pages like IE. It is an editor with no background. It won't produce code which is better for any browser because you can set for which browser to code.
    DW displays the page as an ideal browser (more like IE than NS) will render it. You can read this in the the Docs that come with it and on the Macromedia site.

    FP2000 also has ASP support ( although restricted ) and many many Wizards to easily create pages within minutes.
    Those wizards never work perfect and should therefore better not be used by professionals

    My conclusion is: FP2000 has features for beginners as advanced as professionals. DW3 lacks on a userfriendly interface. Flash4 looks completely different than DW although a Macromedia product. They should do their interface same in all their programs like Adobe and Microsoft do.
    NEVER, never say that DW doesn't have a userfriendly interface. This is totally personal. Maybe you like the interface of FP, but that doesn't mean that everyone likes it.

    Each program of a company having the same interface would be a VERY bad idea, since it is better to design the program's interface so that it best matches the user's needs. You won't like to have a program like Flash 4 that has an Office interface, or do you?
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Of course price matters to some degree. The only argument is what this discussion is about - total package, or just performance.

    I think FrontPage has an edge with it's Office interface, since a lot of people use Office. I for one love it...it's also one of the reasons I love JASC's Paint Shop Pro 6.0 - the interface is simple and easy to get used to...definetly reminds me of an Office program.

  8. #33
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    If I'm honest with you, I must say that I don't care who uses which editor. I'm happy with DW and so are many others. There are also people who rather use Frontpage, NetObjects Fusion or an other (non-wysiwyg) editor.

    Another important thing I'd like to clarify: I do not feel ripped off when I payed for DreamWeaver (actually I didn't pay the whole price myself, but who cares). It's a terrific program to work with and I'll keep using it until I find an editor that better suits my needs.
    No matter what people say about Frontpage and other programs, they won't convince me. I've tried demos of multiple free and shareware editors and DW was the one that I liked the most. Since I'm not going to pay for demos (I know, it's only for shipping, but the fact remains that MS doesn't allow anybody to download this demo. That's the thing I hate most about this 'strategy'.

    Thanks for your attention.
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard
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    "Plus Office 2000 Professional and higher includes Frontpage within the purchase price. It is not a Demo." - wluke

    Wayne, are you sure that Frontpage comes with MS Office Professional? That's what I've got and there's Publisher, Word, Powerpoint, Excel, Access, MSIE 5.0, Outlook, and then some clipart...

    If it does come with MSO2k Pro then is it included in another setup file? I'd like to just try it... (ducks machine gun fire)


  10. #35
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    I've never said DreamWeaver3 is bad. I just said FP2000 is much better

    The problem with those who use DW3 is that they think FP2000 is bad. But 75% of the people who say that have never tried FP2000. --> elledan <--

    I don't remember anyone saying DW3 is bad. It's a good program but so is FP2000. Only ppl like to make an opinion on MS products before testing them out. And I think that all the jalous ppl who do that are wrong

    Just my $35

    Christophe

  11. #36
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by d3v
    "Plus Office 2000 Professional and higher includes Frontpage within the purchase price. It is not a Demo." - wluke

    Wayne, are you sure that Frontpage comes with MS Office Professional? That's what I've got and there's Publisher, Word, Powerpoint, Excel, Access, MSIE 5.0, Outlook, and then some clipart...

    If it does come with MSO2k Pro then is it included in another setup file? I'd like to just try it... (ducks machine gun fire)

    My mistake... its in Office Premium. The discs issued to me by work are labeled Office Professional though which is why I was mistaken. I'll have to tell Software Distribution to fix the problem. Anyway on Office Premium you will find Frontpage on Disc 1, Publisher on Disc 2 and Photodraw on Disc 3.

    Quinn, You can play around with creating webpages in Publisher. It allows you to do some complex formatting from templates very easily, easier than a regular WYSIWYG editor.


    p.s. and before anyone asks.. Yes my discs are licensed. We have an OEM distribution license and since I might have to work at home I qualify for a complete software package.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  12. #37
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by freesources
    I've never said DreamWeaver3 is bad. I just said FP2000 is much better
    This sounds a little TOO sure... 'Much better'
    You can't be serious, or are you? For most people here it's essential to have access to the HTML source while creating the page and that's just one thing FP can't do.

    The problem with those who use DW3 is that they think FP2000 is bad. But 75% of the people who say that have never tried FP2000. --> elledan <--
    If you've heard me saying that FP is bad in this thread, please quote it.
    BTW I've already exlained why I haven't tested FP. And before I forget to say: A program that stops working after 45 days is a demo in my opinion.

    I don't remember anyone saying DW3 is bad. It's a good program but so is FP2000. Only ppl like to make an opinion on MS products before testing them out. And I think that all the jalous ppl who do that are wrong
    Here you're already telling us something different than at the top of your post... And I don't know about you, but there are more than enough reviews of DreamWeaver and FP 2000 on Webmaster Resource sites. (On SP, webmasterbase.com for example, is recently a review of DW 3 added. If you've read that review and and that of FP2k, you can't say that FP is MUCH better, as you stated before.
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
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  13. #38
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    FRONTPAGE HAS A HTML EDITOR

    even a more stable one than the one DW3 has...

    Christophe

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Wha? FrontPage totally allows you access to the HTML source - where you been?

    This isn't like UBB .vs. vBulletin, where a winner is clear...this is determined by what kind of developer you are. I can see why someone would like to use DreamWeaver...and I hope all of you can see why I like to use FrontPage.

  15. #40
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by freesources
    Hello,

    I'm going to compare MS FrontPage 2000 to Dreamweaver3 (not the other way around) so you guys finally see how good FP2000 is...

    Bad points:
    • No SSI support
    • Limited HTML edit mode

    I believe that it stands right there: ' Limited HTML edit mode '. Remember that I'm the guy who doesn't have any experience with FP? I see that FS writes this, so I accept it as being the truth. And now you're saying it's not. You're confusing me guys...

    But anyway, DW can be used as a 'normal' text based HTML editor. Nobody forces you to use the wysiwyg interface...

    And I repeat: I'm happy with DW and you guys are happy with FP, so don't spoil the party.
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  16. #41
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by freesources
    FRONTPAGE HAS A HTML EDITOR

    even a more stable one than the one DW3 has...

    Christophe
    And there he goes again... ' even a more stable one than the one DW3 has... '

    Are you so blind, fs? If I didn't knew better I'd think that your ego is too big to admit that your favorite toy isn't as good as you want everyone to believe.

    Ok, FP has an HTML editor. Fine with me. But immediately saying that it's more stable... Well, I'm still waiting for the first time that DW crashes.
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Member
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    Dreamweaver may be better in that you can do more advanced things to websites, but Frontpage is much better when it comes to managing websites, hands-down.

    The Frontpage Extensions that are practically standard on most web hosts nowadays makes it so easy to just log in, edit something on your site, and save it in real time. If you take the time to learn Frontpage well enough, you can create some pretty advanced looking websites anyways.
    Edwin Day
    http://www.loogy.com

  18. #43
    SitePoint Member
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    i use notepad,even pico but i think Allaire HomeSite is great! Dreamweaver sux...btw Adobe GoLive is pretty cool...
    Heavy metal rulz!

  19. #44
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan
    Originally posted by freesources
    FRONTPAGE HAS A HTML EDITOR

    even a more stable one than the one DW3 has...

    Christophe
    And there he goes again... ' even a more stable one than the one DW3 has... '

    Are you so blind, fs? If I didn't knew better I'd think that your ego is too big to admit that your favorite toy isn't as good as you want everyone to believe.

    Ok, FP has an HTML editor. Fine with me. But immediately saying that it's more stable... Well, I'm still waiting for the first time that DW crashes.
    Well.. In the few hours I used DW3 the HTML editor crashed. The HTML editor of FP2000 never crashes... Just speking out of experience, unlike you my friend Elledan...

    Christophe

  20. #45
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Let me remind you of the fact that on every PC programs use to behave different.

    If DW uses to crash on your PC, you could formatting your HD and reinstalling Windows 98, or use Windows 2000 who isn't being plagued so much with this kind of nasty things as a radical solution you could also buy a new PC...

    You... you... filthy little...

    This time you've almost made me really angry...

    I DO SPEAK OUT OF EXPERIENCE. You've no right to claim that DW is a bad product since you've only tried it ONCE, for ONE day!

    I know what I would have done if I had been a moderator on this forum and I wouldn't have regret it.

    [Edited by Elledan on 09-01-2000 at 04:34 PM]
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  21. #46
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I don't know what you would have done but here is what I am going to do...

    Everyone better play nice or I am going to close this thread and start revoking privileges.

    When your personal preferences start getting in the way of reason then its time to walk away and count to ten slowly while breathing deeply.

    You both should just resign yourselves to the fact that you both like different software and deal with it. There are a lot more things in this world that should worry you than whether Frontpage is better than Dreamweaver or Vice Versa.

    So play nice or get out of the pool.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  22. #47
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Ok Wayne, I'll be nice
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard jumpthru's Avatar
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    You guys keep saying that the DreamWeaver supporters have never used FrontPage but have the FrontPage supporters ever used Dreamweaver?

  24. #49
    SitePoint Enthusiast GodFather's Avatar
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    I will make this real easy. I dont use either, as I stated earlier I use EditPlus and it is the best flat out. It has built in syntax highlighting for everything! (php, perl, html, C++, python, INI, and more, just make a filter if it doesnt have your language) and it has built in FTP support, browser preview, and everything! it is by far the best if you know HTML even a little bit.

  25. #50
    @russellg RussellG's Avatar
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    strange that nobody uses coffeecup.
    russell.cz.cc - coming soon (I promise!)


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