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  1. #101
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    So, why throw the names around, really?
    Well, maybe this, and other utterances of PHP users is just a little bit of a counterweight for the multi-million dollar add campagnes.

    Greetings

    Rik who painted his ferrari in a flowery pattern with PHP after looking at his wife's blouse.

    I wish!
    Last edited by Zoef; Nov 19, 2002 at 17:07.

  2. #102
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    I didn't say: "All PHP'ers are 14 year olds with no lives"
    I didn't say: "PHP is only good for nobody's"
    I didn't say: "Large sites using PHP means nothing"
    Yes, but you did say:
    Originally posted by one of Jeremy W.
    Once again PHP wins because more 14 year olds use it than smoke cigarettes.
    This is demeaning. Period. Or do you have the figures to back this statement up?

    No room for you to backpeddle, bud.

  3. #103
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Yeah, again out of context. This is getting kind of tiring.

    The quote above is in reference to:

    "It's not like PHP is running Google, Amazon, Yahoo or any of the other names thrown around, at least in most cases."

    It then goes onto say:

    "If I said "Ford uses Goodyear tires", you would likely think that that's what they used across their fleet. You probably wouldn't think I meant "Ford uses Goodyear tires for spares, on guest cars that tour the carpark". Both statements are true, but one shows the whole truth."

    Which is my point. If you are only going to sling names around, what's the point? How does that help your technology? It makes you look like a resume writer who embellishes just a little. Better on paper than in real life. To me, it's far better to look better in real life.

    "This is demeaning. Period."

    Again, perception. What is the actual statement. There are more PHP'ers than 14 year old smokers. How is that a negative statement?

    It could be taken one of 3 ways. Either programming has gotten people away from smoking, I think PHP is better than smoking, or I'm saying PHP has as much worth as smoking and just happens to have more "users".

    Which is really more likely to be true? Programming likely hasn't gotten people away from smoking. I do think PHP is better than smoking. And PHP, a programming language, obviously has more value than nicotine, a drug.

    So, what have I really said? That numbers don't reflect quality. It was meant to get everyone's attention and it obviously did, in the wrong way. I apologize for the "in the wrong way" as it wasn't meant to offend, but perhaps maybe someone, somewhere, can see that this wasn't a comparison between the worth of PHP and the value of nicotine to society.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  4. #104
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Again, perception. What is the actual statement. There are more PHP'ers than 14 year old smokers.
    No, you said:
    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Once again PHP wins because more 14 year olds use it than smoke cigarettes.
    There's a not-so-subtle difference here that you should manage to detect (seeing as how you made the original quote).

    I know what you meant by it. You know it. Everyone who has been following this wreck-of-a-hijacked thread knows it. So give it rest. It's weak, disengenuous, and really unbecoming of you.
    Last edited by phoo; Nov 19, 2002 at 17:52.

  5. #105
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
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    Yeah, again out of context.
    Oh dear! Please, Jeremy, my comment was refering to 'this and other utterances'. Using it as an example of the enthusiasm of PHP users, and as such indeed 'taking it out of context'.

  6. #106
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
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    <in the nicest possible way>

    And please, Jeremy, try to settle down a bit... You seem like a really smart guy and I hope to learn a lot from your posts.

    But right here, right now, you're coming over as a rather self rightious and at patronising. Maybe ask yourself why it is that you are beeing 'missperceived' all the time.

    </in the nicest possible way>

    Greetings

    Rik

  7. #107
    jigga jigga what? slider's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HarryF
    You're completely right. Amazon, Lycos, Google and Yahoo using PHP indicates nothing at all
    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Again, Harry, it doesn't "mean" nothing, it is indicative of nothing in and of itself.
    Originally posted by slider
    Quite untrue. It says that the big boys, who likely wouldn't use something unless they felt it was up to snuff in the larger scheme of things, have confidence in PHP enough to use it. That, in and of itself, says something quite large about PHP.
    Come on man, read the posts. You're claiming "out of context" and "misquote" cause you're either not reading what you're writing or you're not reading what you're responding to.

    This thread should either be closed or get back on track.

    On Topic: Google is using PHP for a portion of their site. This bodes well for PHP. I think PHP has a lot of high-end potential that a lot of people don't give it credit for. The language is young and has a lot of room to grow. Development for large web sites has a lot of crossover and similarity to corporate development (which was not part of the original topic but has become part of this discussion) and PHP is beginning to enter that arena. I think in that regard it will begin to provide a more and more viable alternative to any of the .NET solutions (already does against ASP.NET/web development), even for "enterprise-level" solutions. Why wouldn't it? There is a huge community behind it, there is a large push to expand the capabilities of the technology/language, there is a solid core (growing fast) of PHP-experienced programmers, the profile of the language is gaining altitude, etc.

    I have some serious anti-MS sentiments but they don't come out on the boards. I wonder what roots the anti-PHP sentiments are coming from...
    $slider = 'n00b';

  8. #108
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    Originally posted by slider
    I have some serious anti-MS sentiments but they don't come out on the boards. I wonder what roots the anti-PHP sentiments are coming from...
    Insecurity. Plain and simple.

    As for closing this thread, too early as certain guilty parties have not been adequately flamed.

  9. #109
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    "I didn't say: "All PHP'ers are 14 year olds with no lives"
    I didn't say: "PHP is only good for nobody's"
    I didn't say: "Large sites using PHP means nothing""

    you never actually <i>say</i> 'PHP is kak' but you just make snide asides and comments about it and one assumes its users (you call Rasmus Lerdorf an Idiot because he quotes an MS current price list ?), then when that annoys people , and headline: it will, go off on some I didnt say that crusade.

    "It's kind of like embellishing, from my perspective. You aren't saying "Yahoo, Google, etc find PHP good for certain web delivery vehicles" which is what's true. You are saying "Yahoo, Google, etc use PHP" which is true, but leaves a lot unsaid. It's an untruth by ommission."
    !untruths by ommission!, ok we are moving to another level.

  10. #110
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    Alright, folks, i never ever interfered in any of these "childish" flame wars before, but now i think it really is enough.

    First off, back off from Jeremy, he sort of apologized, has really tried to make his point, so accept it and especially respect his oppinion in an adult way.

    There REALLY is no point in cat fighting all the time (though i admit sometimes, just sometimes i used to enjoy the picking between Jeremy and HarryF, but only because both of them were trying to bring up GOOD arguments against each other, with sometimes really interesting information and links).

    Also i would like to say that it is pretty much useless to argue all the time about all the different technologies available.

    All those technologies are merely tools at your hand to use.
    Use the tool you either prefer or think is best for the current project. Sure it's nice to support your preferred language, but if you do so do it in a sensible way without trying to offend others.

    I don't know of any programmer who has ever ever said :"Woot, C++ RoXors and Java is ****". I know nobody has ever said it this straight forward in the context of PHP and for example ASP, but sometimes it comes very close to it.

    Which really is just childish and puts both the languages and as well the value of Sitepointforums.com in a light which many people who come here to either learn, ask for help or simply read INTERESTING and INFORMATIVE threads, think of as "Just another forum where way to many "wanna be's" hang around.

    If you really think you have the time to argue about technologies, than at least post content that makes sense.

    On a final note, i love PHP, i really do, and if i can support it somehow, i will. But jesus, that does not mean i am going to neglect all the other technologies available. If you do that, and think you can get through with it, well than you have obviously never ever really been employed in the IT world. I have said this before, in one other thread, but claiming your preferred technology is the best, is very very unproffesional. No matter if it is the ever on going really really childish Windows-Linux war, or the even mor childish arguments about which programming language is better than the other. If you ever have to work with a team of programmers...nobody will take you serious the minute you say that. Keep it in mind

    And if i am allowed to make one wish, that it would be for the community to be a tiny bit more openminded. Remember, after all it is only a tool which allows you to work, make money and live.

    Best regards from Vienna,
    datune

    Ps: In no way i wanted to offend any youngsters with the term "childish", i just couldn't come up with a more appropiate word.
    Also my english is not the best, so excuse any misspellings or alike.

  11. #111
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Well said, Datune. I expect everyone here to stop the nitpicking of posts here, and start using real arguments instead.

    And, as I was obviously not clear enough the first time:
    If see one single flame after this post I'll close this thread.
    Mattias Johansson
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  12. #112
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Well, you want facts?

    Belly buttons can be used for salt/vinegar/sauce when eating chips in bed.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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  13. #113
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Well said datune. It's a point I keep making over and over in these thread, but nobody ever pays a blind bit of attention to. It's much more fun to battle each other (and MJ now throwing his "I'm gonna close this thread" into the mix is great. If the .NUTs didn't come barging in in the first place, this thread would never have degenerated).

    The arguements go something like this...

    p|-|p'3R: php is way cheaper!

    .nut: No way. I have a team of MCSE server admins, data room of win2kadv servers with SQL 2000. Changing to *nix and php is a massive and expensive task. So .NET is way cheaper.

    p|-|p'3R: On come on, getting rid of our unix admins, or retraining them all to MCSE, along with all the licensing is a massive outlay.

    (loop to infinity)

    .nut: .NET is way easier to develop

    p|-|p'3R: What, for our team of php and perl developers you mean?

    .net: No, for our team of VB programmers who all have VS.NET.

    (loop to infinity)

    *yawn*

    /shoots self in head...

  14. #114
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    Jan Brady [.NET]: Marsha (PHP), Marsha (PHP), Marsha (PHP), why is it always, Marsha (PHP)?

  15. #115
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    allow me the honor, M$ Johansson, of closing this thread

    Originally posted by datune
    First off, back off from Jeremy, he sort of apologized, has really tried to make his point, so accept it and especially respect his oppinion in an adult way.
    While I appreciate your effort to pacify, please don't patronise the board. Most of us will agree that the PHP vs .NET debate is hackneyed, unproductive, and a downright snoozefest. This thread however was never about PHP vs .NET -- and certainly not about .NET. It was, by and large, a harmless unabashed expression of pride -- that is, until a certain "Advisor of the Year 2002" decided to swing by and defecate on the heads of every participant.

    This was the "apology":
    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    I apologize for the "in the wrong way" as it wasn't meant to offend...
    Excuse me? Wasn't meant to offend? You leap into a pit of vipers like Indiana Gates and you have the audacity to say you didn't mean to offend? Pure nonsense. That's about as sincere as sneaking into UAW meeting, leaping to the podium, exhalting the virtues of Acuras and topping off with "By the way, no offense!".

    A wise man once said, "Diminishing a man's happiness and pride to increase one's own should be a crime.". A wiser man once said, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.". This thread will serve as a warning to anyone who finds such petty fulfillment in sabotaging our threads.

    God bless PHP!

  16. #116
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I think you need to calm down a bit as well and not take things so personally. Earlier you claimed that you knew "damn well" what I meant, I did, everyone did which I find amazing since we don't know each other at all and your experience with me is rather limited.

    If my previous apology wasn't enough here's another: I'm sorry for intruding on the PHP thread.

    That said, it quickly became more than a PHP thread even if it wasn't originally.

    Anyways, I'll go back to my corner of the world now, since I'm obviously not welcome here
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  17. #117
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    Apology accepted. Now shoo. Those cats at Redmond are getting hungry.

  18. #118
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M. Johansson

    And, as I was obviously not clear enough the first time:
    If see one single flame after this post I'll close this thread.
    Slightly Off-topic:

    Everyone has their bias. It is OK. But when a moderator close a flame thread, where his bias is clear, it creates suspicion. It is better ask another moderator (who is not involved in the discussion) to make a decision in such a situation.
    Just MHO

    I think I made this point before.
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

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  19. #119
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Now I'm not one to defend Jeremy [], but who are you phoo? You have 6 posts to your name, all of which are bashing others in this thread.

  20. #120
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Indian

    Slightly Off-topic:

    Everyone has their bias. It is OK. But when a moderator close a flame thread, where his bias is clear, it creates suspicion. It is better ask another moderator (who is not involved in the discussion) to make a decision in such a situation.
    Just MHO

    I think I made this point before.
    If a thread is full of personal attacks, it's just not good to have around. Ask any of the advisors. If anyone finds that "suspicious", I suggest they adjust their tinfoil hat.

    edit - but you are probably right, it may not be a good idea if I single-handedly closed it.
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Nov 20, 2002 at 14:23.
    Mattias Johansson
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  21. #121
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    Originally posted by Mincer
    who are you phoo?
    I'm a programmer. I like php, oop, candlelight dinners and long walks on the beach.

    Originally posted by Mincer
    You have 6 posts to your name, all of which are bashing others in this thread.
    It's interesting to observe how easily punishing rhetoric is misconstrued. Others? Maybe one -- namely Jeremy W. -- but he is simply reaping what he sowed. Care to deny that? And care to tell me how many posts I must have before I'm bestowed the priviledge of "bashing" others? 100? 1000?

    Those are rhetorical questions btw. This thread, for all intents and purposes, is a smoldering wreck. Peace.

  22. #122
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Thing is that punishing rhetoric, while it happens, isn't meant to happen on SPF. I'm hoping you've noticed, as most members have, that SPF is drastically different to any other community by the very fact that we are a community.

    Sure, Harry and I jibe and sometimes nearly insult each other in PHP vs .NET stuff, but you'll also find I respect Harry more than just about any other programmer here and I'm fairly sure the reverse is true as well.

    It's not like we're being exclusive because your comments were "justified" in the strictest sense of the word.

    This isn't an attack or even something directed at you, but you asked. Peace?
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  23. #123
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    As you might have noticed, there is a large padlock on the reply button. I'm now going to give you the reason I closed this thread, in as much an unbiased way as possible.

    The original thread was started to discuss the fact that Google was using php, which is great, I noticed this myself a few months ago when I downloaded the toolbar. BUT this topic was quickly blown away by attacks on each other and it changing into a .NET vs PHP. There are enough of these duscussions right now to do everyone, and this was the pick of the worst.

    As one of the most friendly forums online, I was really disappointed to see what was being said in this forum, and I would really hope that this isn't how its going to be in the future...

    So that's enough for this service announcement.



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