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  1. #76
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    How many corps do you know of who use pgSQL? Where is the support, etc? This is one of the reasons Solaris is still chosen.

    Tsk tsk my foot, show me something vaguely like an MSDN subscription. It is worth that 3K every single month.

    "PS: What does Microsofts CMS solution cost these days (no I'm not talking about that IBuySpy thing)... $30k, $50k?"

    Commerce Server is another piece of software and is likely what you're talking about. Another piece of software that MS bought (They had developed BizServer and CS was better). Cost before purchase: 125K. Cost after purchase: 35K.

    Again, the few shining gems in Open Source aren't enough to run an entire business on. For every Apache there's a dozen phpNuke's.

    Are we arguing MS vs Open Source here, or are we arguing Commercial vs Open Source? Take your pick, but really it should be Commercial vs Open Source first. After that's settled we can do MS vs other Commercial.

    Really this has nothing to do with the original post though, and neither did your quote, it was just another "free is better" routine, yet again, which, again, doesn't take TCO into account so is completely invalid.

    Tsk tsk tsk right back atcha.
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  2. #77
    jigga jigga what? slider's Avatar
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    What are you arguing here? Web development vs. corporate development? Corporate, corporate, corporate. This thread had nothing to do with corporate development. The posts you keep answering are not talking about corporate development (most of them). They're talking about the use of PHP on large web sites.

    You have a hard time staying on topic man.
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  3. #78
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    You talk in another thread about 'Harrys Myths' ...

    your posts are getting more into the 'Jeremeys Alternate Universe theory' a unified theory in which all MS software is actually cheaper than free software and where PostgreSQL turns to MySQL (you could have suggested Interbase) , PHP is for cigarette smoking spotty kids but you use it `all the time` even though you don't appear to understand the basics of its core functionality.....

    One of the last annoying digs that .NOT'ters and JAVA heads had, was that even though 9 million + domains used PHP that 'no-one' used it... no-one of any substance anyway, & now the worlds largest website is using it and it appears that many other hardcore web solutions are in part PHP powered, this thread was another `trainspotter` till the fat controller turned up and dumped it into something different, yes it was a pat on the back for PHP thread, so what ? , why does that annoy you so ? do you come out in lumps or something (happens to me when I gotta do ColdFusion stuff) , its ok to talk about it & get it out in the open but please in this dimension.

    Yes the vast majority of Open Source code is 'interesting' at best , but one Apache does make up for a million php nukes, lol so does for that matter PERL,PHP,Python,Squid etc , I wont go on as I may bore you even further.

    ... now is about when I expect you to tell us that PHP is quite good, you use it all the time so you are not really knocking it blah blah

  4. #79
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Harry's post compared Windows 2000 Advanced Server, SQL Server, ISA Server and the MSDN. Those are corporate tools, no small website uses ISA.
    Digital Hitman, netmobs
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  5. #80
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    This thread has EVERYTHING to do with corporate development. PHP is rarely used in corps, and now one of the biggest IT corps of all chooses PHP. That's the point of this thread, my man.

    But yes, this thread is really detoriating into a mess. If it isn't steered back up on topic soon, I think it may be best to close it.

    edit - Also, please keep to the issue, instead of critizing eachother.
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Nov 19, 2002 at 11:23.
    Mattias Johansson
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  6. #81
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
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    ooooooops... big boys at it again...

    Better get outta the way

  7. #82
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zoef
    ooooooops... big boys at it again...

    Better get outta the way
    Aye! The skies doth burn!
    Mattias Johansson
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  8. #83
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    Soooo summing up

    another nice PHP factoid in our arsenal of persuasion , Google, Yahoo, Deutche-Bank, Amazon, Lufthansa et al , ... there is a very pleasant feeling rolling those of the tounge when explaining your recommendation to a prospective client, add to that security and stability of the the worlds most popular web-platform blah and it helps, even here in Oz where we are about 2 years behind the rest of the world in fashion , taste and IT.

    + Luckily in general we can add up.

  9. #84
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Well, I'll clear up some misconceptions for you firepages, since I seem to be getting misquoted so much this week.

    "a unified theory in which all MS software is actually cheaper than free software"

    Not at all, but neither is all free software cheaper than all MS software. It's one of those conundrums which basically boils down to: choose the solution that's best for your problem. It makes no sense for me to use .NET for my new little humour site as the problem is how to make a quick, cheap site in under 2 hours, so I used PHP which does solve the problem.

    "where PostgreSQL turns to MySQL"

    I misread, I already said that, but the point remains. Harry's example was an enterprise one, and I fail to see the prevalence of pgSQL in the Enterprise environment.

    "PHP is for cigarette smoking spotty kids"

    Actually, it was yet another illustration that the numbers don't really matter. More people using it don't mean it's a better product.

    "you use it `all the time`"

    Yes, and? Again, since my comment wasn't a shot, but an attempt at me trying to visualise what everyone's been sayingf I have no problem saying I use it.

    "was that even though 9 million + domains used PHP that 'no-one' used it... no-one of any substance anyway"

    Actually, it's 9 HUNDRED million domains. Nobody said nobody used it, merely that the numbers aren't indicative of the quality of the language, they are indicative of the power of it versus other free languages. What other free ones are there, CGI et al? Obviously PHP is the winner in that battle.

    Saying 900M sites use PHP and it's therefore the best is much like saying 150K sites use Everyone.net and it's therefore better than vBulletin.

    "now the worlds largest website is using it and it appears that many other hardcore web solutions are in part PHP powered"

    Yeah, they are, wonderful. I mean, what is Google doing? They are serving a PHP page which force-downloads something. Is that really "using" PHP? Heck, they could have done it with HTML, ya know?

    Personally I can't wait to see PHP start doing the serious stuff like truly powering a massive site like Yahoo or whatnot. There is no reason for them to change platforms, development environments, etc to move to an MS solution. I've said it many times, that switching is all about compelling reasons. There are no compelling reasons to engage in a complete rewrite, switch software and buy new licenses for most large sites, except maybe CNET (who happens to use the very CMS solution Harry was mocking earlier).

    "but one Apache does make up for a million php nukes"

    Personal opinion really, but I'd say that if only 1 in a million pieces of software out of a company was worthwhile, or even one in ten, that company would likely go bust very quickly and lose all reputation. Yet, the Open Source community quickly rebounds by pointing to the "Glory Examples". MySQL is lauded until a certain point, and then it's pgSQL. pgSQL is lauded to a certain point, and then it's Oracle (for some reason... Seems the only reason is that it isn't MS).

    "there is a very pleasant feeling rolling those of the tounge when explaining your recommendation to a prospective client"

    Personally, I recommend based on needs, not based on languages. After all, unless you are force-delivering files, Google doesn't count for much, does it?

    Personally I'd love to see where I've demeaned PHP, since it seems to be one of my pastimes, or where I've shown a "gross misunderstanding of the core of PHP".
    Digital Hitman, netmobs
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  10. #85
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    Originally posted by Zoef
    Who else of the 'biggies' uses Php?

    I've heard somewhere, Amazon, is this true?

    Let's make a list... That might help to change the minds of some providers who won't support it...

    Rik
    Actually Amazon uses there own proprietary language I think (I was on the job site, and they said something like that)
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  11. #86
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    They do, most of the big boys use their own stuff (proprietary will always be better than general if you can afford it). If they use PHP, it's for a small portion kind of like Yahoo and Google use PHP for small bits of the site

    (ps: I believe Yahoo is starting to transition certain properties to PHP, so they'll probably be doing the largest load and enterprise testing ever)
    Digital Hitman, netmobs
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  12. #87
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Aye up, the two .NUTs are back in the php forum again!

  13. #88
    jigga jigga what? slider's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M. Johansson
    This thread has EVERYTHING to do with corporate development. PHP is rarely used in corps, and now one of the biggest IT corps of all chooses PHP. That's the point of this thread, my man.
    That is not the point of this thread. The point of this thread was "Google is using PHP for part of its site. Wow, that's cool. Look how far PHP has come." It has since been hijacked. All these arguments flying around are people's beefs coming out. They really have nothing to do with the original point. If they do then I'm sure you could explain to me how .NET is a viable alternative to PHP for Google (or Yahoo, or any of the other large WEB sites that have been mentioned as using PHP). Corporate development and web development for the public Internet are not the same thing. If you have some insight that could convince me otherwise I'd love to hear it.
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  14. #89
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Well the Yahoo case is an interesting one, since you ask.

    They were using a custom scripting language which was doing most of what they wanted, and has been doing so for quite a long time. Instead of upgrading the scripting language, which isn't a massive task, they decided they wanted a new language entirely.

    Great, wonderful, thousands of hours of work ahead of them. They chose PHP even though it didn't fulfill all of their operational requirements and they are "paying" for it. They took a conscious decision and, seeing how often Yahoo has switched technologies in the past, it is likely they will switch out of PHP as well.

    Looking at it purely from the outside, and thanks to several of the presentations that have been made public, it seems that Yahoo makes decisions based on the "frustration level" which isn't that wise of a way of doing it. They don't identify and solve their problems based upon the actual effect of the problem on the company, they identify and solve problems based upon how much people complain.

    That's reactive instead of proactive.

    I wish them all the best with PHP, but I really would have loved to have seen it given it's due and it likely won't be given it's due inside Yahoo.

    Similarly, Google is hardly using it at all as far as we can see.

    Your statement seemed to boil down to ".NET is for corps, leave the web for PHP", but I'd have to say, since I do it, that .NET is also amazing for the web. Where it isn't amazing is small sites and little projects (where I often will choose PHP) but for medium to large sites it is incredibly good.

    Should Yahoo have picked .NET? Of course not, as that would have meant switching OS's. If Mono had been out it might have been an option, but not until Mono was at least a year old, so it didn't solve Yahoo's problem at the time.

    Should Google have picked .NET? For force-downloading a file? Hardly, what's the point? That would be like using Oracle Application Server to do file delivery and versioning, it'd just be silly and overkill.

    So, I don't think you'll find the .NET community bashing any of the decisions, but more some of the reasoning and some of the reactions (if it's actually bashing, likely a matter of perspective I guess).

    I mean, it's great that PHP is used on large sites, well done, but how often do you hear about the large sites that other languages like Java and .NET are used on? Not often. I mean, it's used across the CNET network in a lot of places (specifically for static/dynamic page management), on EBay (Database Management), Microsoft (a given perhaps, but still a large site nonetheless), Cafe Press (extremely fast image manipulation), MapPoint (better version of MapQuest), etc.

    Anyways, I think I'm rambling (I do that... I type fast, so I tend to type as I'm thinking, and I think like I'm rambling so... sorry ).

    I realise I've probably ruffled some feathers and whatnot as I'm perceived to be something I'm not at all (especially by certain people), and I often end up spending half of my posts in these threads saying what I've been saying all along which is really sad.

    Just as I have some preconceptions about PHP and I should keep my mind open, I'd appreciate if the preconceptions others have about me (and about .NET as well) were out in the open and others trying to keep an open mind.

    I really wish we could all (me most of all) just be developers and stop worrying about which language is best. If we are only using one language for everything there is obviously something wrong in our toolkit (like a designer only using Flash for everything) and so I think we should all cross-pollinate. Maybe we could even engage in a community experiment where people like Harry and I get taken on a tour of respective areas by others. Dunno really though.

    Ach, me rambling again, for which I'll likely get flamed again, ah well.
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  15. #90
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M. Johansson
    Yup. If Ximian doesn't blow it, and produces a production-level, open source implementation of the .NET framework for Linux, porting it to other platforms will be a piece of cake for other parties. Seems logical enough
    The problem I can't see past is that you are choosing a technology that will always be playing catch-up to the official implementation

    Originally posted by M. Johansson
    I've ran into several that didn't have PDFlib installed, which in my opinion is several too many
    Why pay for a PDFLib license when there are better and free tools around (Skunk's link is a prefect example)?

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  16. #91
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    "The problem I can't see past is that you are choosing a technology that will always be playing catch-up to the official implementation"

    Doesn't everything? When PHP turned register_globals off, for instance?

    That's the nature of piggy-back or support software. In this case it is only a matter of a recode when the IL changes which won't happen often since it is, after all, an ECMA standard.

    "Why pay for a PDFLib license when there are better and free tools around (Skunk's link is a prefect example)?"

    Again, .NET is a year old. Did PDFLib exist in the first year? It will only get better and to say that .NET isn't worthy for such a small thing as PDF generation really isn't fair since no other technology has ever been subject to such analysis.

    J
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  17. #92
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Doesn't everything? When PHP turned register_globals off, for instance?
    1) There was plenty of warning. 2) People should have been using $HTTP_*_VARS anyway

    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Again, .NET is a year old. Did PDFLib exist in the first year? It will only get better and to say that .NET isn't worthy for such a small thing as PDF generation really isn't fair since no other technology has ever been subject to such analysis
    What? Mattias was talking about PDFLib not being installed for PHP users. My point was that there are free tools which do the same job. It had nothing to do with choosing a language for generating PDFs

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  18. #93
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    - Exactly, there will be more than a year of warning before changes to the IL, and it will require ECMA certification anyways

    - my bad, sorry about that, I was trying to read between the lines and couldn't quite
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  19. #94
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Personally I'd love to see where I've demeaned PHP, since it seems to be one of my pastimes...
    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Once again PHP wins because more 14 year olds use it than smoke cigarettes.
    Would a 3 1/2 page span qualify for short-term memory?

  20. #95
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Going back a bit;

    Once again Harry is playing the number of sites card. I thought we'd already determined it was great but is indicative of nothing.
    You're completely right. Amazon, Lycos, Google and Yahoo using PHP indicates nothing at all

  21. #96
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    phoo, as I stated at that time, and at least 3 times since, it was an illustration of the same vein as Harry's last statement, almost. Why? Because I'm sick of saying the same words. Once again, misperception.

    I didn't say: "All PHP'ers are 14 year olds with no lives"
    I didn't say: "PHP is only good for nobody's"
    I didn't say: "Large sites using PHP means nothing"

    Again, Harry, it doesn't "mean" nothing, it is indicative of nothing in and of itself. What is Google doing with PHP? Not a whole heck of a lot. What is Amazon doing? Dunno, gimme a link becuase it sure isn't running the site, affiliate programs or mailings.

    What I'm saying is twofold: judge the software on the software's quality not on who uses it AND when boasting about a company using something, don't just throw the name around.

    It's not like PHP is running Google, Amazon, Yahoo or any of the other names thrown around, at least in most cases. What it is doing is aiding where appropriate. So, why throw the names around, really?

    It's kind of like embellishing, from my perspective. You aren't saying "Yahoo, Google, etc find PHP good for certain web delivery vehicles" which is what's true. You are saying "Yahoo, Google, etc use PHP" which is true, but leaves a lot unsaid. It's an untruth by ommission.

    If I said "Ford uses Goodyear tires", you would likely think that that's what they used across their fleet. You probably wouldn't think I meant "Ford uses Goodyear tires for spares, on guest cars that tour the carpark". Both statements are true, but one shows the whole truth.

    So, again, there are two parts to the argument. One is that the number of sites shouldn't even really be a determining factor (when Perl was top dog, no PHP'er would say Perl was the best because of the numbers, but now that the seats are reversed...) AND that the patting on the back should be quantified. Why? Becuase just like embellishing a resume, I've found that when you underpromote yourself on paper, you look better in real life.
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  22. #97
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    You won't like this thread then

  23. #98
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Cool. Stats are good to know but aren't of any real value when comparing technologies. Stats seem to indicate, then, that the average PHP domain has 3 pages? Odd.
    Digital Hitman, netmobs
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  24. #99
    jigga jigga what? slider's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    ...it is indicative of nothing in and of itself.
    Quite untrue. It says that the big boys, who likely wouldn't use something unless they felt it was up to snuff in the larger scheme of things, have confidence in PHP enough to use it. That, in and of itself, says something quite large about PHP.
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  25. #100
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Misquote, again. The "in and of itself" was in response to the number of sites, not the quality of sites.

    Keep those times where I demeaned PHP coming, so far we're at 0

    </joking>
    Digital Hitman, netmobs
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