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Thread: 2.1 or 3.0?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    Help me out a little here, how would you make a WordPress or Drupal site valid. Much of the validation errors on a wordpress site have to do with the editor spitting out HTML instead of xHTML. A classic examples is target="_blank". It's more important for clients to maintain their own websites than for a website to be valid. I am a little unsure why WordPress hasn't clocked onto making
    it's pop-ups comply with valid xHTML, or why is even assumes people are still coding in HTML4. *puzzled*
    You just proved my point and gave the exact answer that the previous developer should have qualified his "client didn't ask" reply with. You gave the reasons why the site was not valid and didn't say "well no one asked" so I could gather from your reply that you were in control of the situation.

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    @Paul O'B ;

    All my templates are valid, it's the CMS processing that messes things up. Client's in my experience don't concern themselves with valid or invalid code. They are more geared towards seeing things the same in all browsers and it working in the way they want. It's a little like asking a mechanic to put in my car a certain type of oil. Sure, he might do, he might not, the bottom line is, the car should run smoothly, whether or not he took my advice. This is what really matters.

    You just proved my point and gave the exact answer that the previous developer should have qualified his "client didn't ask" reply with. You gave the reasons why the site was not valid and didn't say "well no one asked" so I could gather from your reply that you were in control of the situation.
    Control is not the issue, if I can learn something new then I am always open to that (nobody knows everything). We work with what works best for us, and as we evolve the way we works evolves alongside that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    @Paul O'B ;

    All my templates are valid, it's the CMS processing that messes things up. Client's in my experience don't concern themselves with valid or invalid code. They are more geared towards seeing things the same in all browsers and it working in the way they want. It's a little like asking a mechanic to put in my car a certain type of oil. Sure, he might do, he might not, the bottom line is, the car should run smoothly, whether or not he took my advice. This is what really matters.

    Control is not the issue, if I can learn something new then I am always open to that (nobody knows everything). We work with what works best for us, and as we evolve the way we works evolves alongside that.
    Again your answer confirms my original intention that you know what you are doing unlike the other developer who replied "no one asked". That was the only point I was making

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    @Paul O'B ;

    Oh looks like we had a mix-up in communication. Problem Solved! I like to think I know what I am going. I just finished watching an episode of Hell's Kitchen. The humble ones always seam to win, so I try my best to keep myself humble and open to criticism. =)
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    So the question is:

    - when the business owner needs to hire someone who writes code that WORKS correctly
    - and the business owner may be liable for accessibility issues on the site depending on what country they are in
    - and the business owner will be liable for any images appropriated from the likes of Getty or Corbis
    - and when bad code can lose the business owner a lot of money

    how does the business owner decide who to hire to do the job?

    Michelle:
    since you do not have a mechanic friend, and since there isn't an "Angie's List" of web developers, I think you're stuck.

    Ideally, you should not have the opportunity to ruin markup when attempting to change content. The editor or admin panel you were using seems... faulty in some way. Or, you would hire someone who knows enough about code that they could safely update your information without hurting HTML code. But that's another business cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitica
    Simple. By testing. On lots of OSs, on lots of UAs, on lots of devices.
    I feel if a business owner hires someone to build or maintain a website, the business owner shouldn't have to concern themselves with testing. As in, if I buy a new car, I am expecting that it is not having a major safety defect (now, it might, stuff happens, but it's not my job as the over-paying customer to check that every which-way). I am paying for a new car and it should work like every other new car.
    Similarly, a business owner (let's say the business owner has stated "this needs to work in IE7+, all other major/popular browsers, and smart-phone-level mobile devices") who is paying for a working site should expect to get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by oddz
    Again not saying it is right but you can't simply discredit people who use these things and take on their inherit failures because in many cases it a question of budget.
    You started with a quote from me, but I can't tell if the rest of the post was in-general or targeted at me or at the OP. But if it were targeted at me, I was not talking about crappy CMSes nor discrediting anyone. When I see a bad technique, as I stated,
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    usually I try to guess why the developer did it.
    Though frankly, I don't care why a website doesn't work, when I'm a user. Why should I? It's borked and it doesn't work and so I'm going to the competitor's who does work. "Oh it's broken because Drupal is affordable" means zip and zero to a user. They don't know what Drupal is and they don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle
    P.S. As an aside question, I thought Magento was just a shopping cart. One that I really wanted to switch to, but for reasons already mentioned, I haven't been able to. Has it also become a CMS now?
    Re Magento: it's an e-commerce system but it's very much like a CMS. Well, it's a content management system, just that the content is products and has an e-commerce side to it, so... I'd say it's darn close to a CMS, yes. It's certainly as complicated as one.

    Certainly it has a section where you put in the information, and it generates HTML (and CSS and JS) so... yeah, same category.

    So anyway we've all come to the conclusion that the OP can't rely on w3 validation to know if what she paid for is any good. She could test on a few browsers, but she does not have developer testing tools and likely like most normal people only has maybe 2 browsers at most.

    So what can she do to ensure that people she pays money to don't give her steaming piles of bork?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post

    So what can she do to ensure that people she pays money to don't give her steaming piles of bork?
    At this time there's no way for a client who has no knowledge of what makes a good website to know whether a site's been executed well or not.

    There should be some kind of independent firm by web professionals for clients who evaluate websites based on the criteria that define a good website. "human validators" that go beyond markup and style.
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    So what can she do to ensure that people she pays money to don't give her steaming piles of bork?
    They can only make the judgement based on the proposal stages were the potential client would see the breakdown of what will be done e.g. sitemap & hierarchy, wire-frames, then design or straight to development, depending on how you work.

    A company with good business structure would limit issues. For examples, a company that give's so many days warrantee on the site followed with a 12-month after support plan would pretty much put the client worry at ease.

    The shocking truth is that many perceive a web design similar to a painter or a roofer, in that you pay for the service and that's it. They forget the ongoing support and maintenance, which in my opinion is vital. Granted support is charged, but companies seek to reduce the price. If this reduction comes at the cost of your company image, then you're only really asking for trouble. Logically thinking, it's not about how much the web designer charges, but more importantly what he/she is actually charging for. The only way to protect yourself is to clearly evaluate what you're paying for.

    You'd be amazed how many businesses are not happy with their website. After I ask them it's always seams to be because of support, or lack of knowledge. Now the I see more businesses not happy because of support. Then again the clients went for the cheapest web designer who naturally did not charge for support or some kind of maintenance.

    WordPress sites only really need a plug-in installed which could potentially mess everything up. If the website is tested prior to delivery, then it won't break, and given the warantee, if anything did break, the web designer would fix it if within the warrantee days, or if the client is on support.

    I hope this helps.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek View Post
    At this time there's no way for a client who has no knowledge of what makes a good website to know whether a site's been executed well or not.

    There should be some kind of independent firm by web professionals for clients who evaluate websites based on the criteria that define a good website. "human validators" that go beyond markup and style.
    I agree & have been saying this for years.


    Michelle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I feel if a business owner hires someone to build or maintain a website, the business owner shouldn't have to concern themselves with testing. As in, if I buy a new car, I am expecting that it is not having a major safety defect (now, it might, stuff happens, but it's not my job as the over-paying customer to check that every which-way). I am paying for a new car and it should work like every other new car.
    The difference is, when you buy a lemon car, you have a warranty & most times (not always), the car manufacturer will replace the car & it's usually pretty obvious the car's a lemon with in a month or two. I also have a huge company I can go to to complain, when I hire a website coder, it's one guy who has no boss as I am his boss.

    With a website (as in my case), the site can run for years & I wouldn't know it's crappy code unless I'm editing the text all the time & something breaks, other website coders are coming in & saying it's crap code (some just do it for ego sake), but that again, usually doesn't happen until years down the road since I don't hire new people all the time. Then they tell me they have to rewrite everything just to get something to work, or lastly, until something breaks the entire page/site.

    While the cost isn't the same as a car is worth a lot more, for me the cost is huge if I have to keep having sites redone. Also, by the time I know there's a problem with the code, a) I may not even know who did the code if multiple coders worked on the site b) I generally don't call out to coders who worked on the site years earlier which has been suggested to me in the past. I've never had the experience of a coder admitting they are wrong. Instead they usually throw a temper tantrum claiming they are right & there's nothing wrong with their code.

    If they were that good & we left on great terms, I would have kept them around. Some just disappear or get a f/t job or whatever.

    Similarly, a business owner (let's say the business owner has stated "this needs to work in IE7+, all other major/popular browsers, and smart-phone-level mobile devices") who is paying for a working site should expect to get it.

    I'm confused here. A site can work on all browsers, but not show up as valid in the validator?


    Michelle

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    Quote Originally Posted by exoticpublishing View Post
    I'm confused here. A site can work on all browsers, but not show up as valid in the validator?
    Browsers tend to be very forgiving of invalid/outdated code. If they weren't so, bad code would be much more obvious.

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    k & I am not sure if any one of you knows of someone or a company who has built a CMS type deal where a customer can just add text to, their logo, tagline, galleries, etc. to a website. I have tons of features I wanted on the system, but I'm sure no one has all those features.

    I was going to build a system like that years ago for my industry, but the programmer ended up ripping me off & then I had no budget.

    Since my clients sometimes come to me for referrals to web designers (I don't call anyone that, I call everyone a website coder, or a graphic web designer), I have no one I can partner up with to refer them to. Tried to partner with one guy who had a similar system, then he refused to pay me. Another one just approached me, but when I wanted more info on him, he suddenly disappeared. So obviously REAL people who aren't lying, hiding & cheating is necessary

    Thanks


    Michelle

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    Quote Originally Posted by exoticpublishing View Post
    a company who has built a CMS type deal where a customer can just add text to, their logo, tagline, galleries, etc. to a website. I have tons of features I wanted on the system, but I'm sure no one has all those features.
    There are lots of these. There are many very reputable CMSes out there—some free, some commercial—that are fully featured. In some cases, you can use them (for yourself or for clients) even if you aren't a real coder, while others require you to be a fully fledged coder (at least with HTML and CSS).

    It sounds to me like you are dealing with the wrong kinds of people. A proper web business—whether freelance or a bigger operation—should never be involved in "ripoffs" and so on. There should be clear, professional, written agreements in place. Ideally, I'd say deal with people locally so you can go in and meet them, too. I'm sure each region must have reputable people you can go to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    There are lots of these. There are many very reputable CMSes out there—some free, some commercial—that are fully featured. In some cases, you can use them (for yourself or for clients) even if you aren't a real coder, while others require you to be a fully fledged coder (at least with HTML and CSS).

    It sounds to me like you are dealing with the wrong kinds of people. A proper web business—whether freelance or a bigger operation—should never be involved in "ripoffs" and so on. There should be clear, professional, written agreements in place. Ideally, I'd say deal with people locally so you can go in and meet them, too. I'm sure each region must have reputable people you can go to.
    Well I know there shouldn't be people like that out there, but they are a dime a dozen. They do the sales pitch & don't even know what they are doing. They talk the talk, not the walk.

    Re: the programmer, there was a contract in place. I didn't even know he ripped me off until I FINALLY found a programmer to go look at what he had put on teh server. I ended up paying $1,500 for a skin of some sort to be uploaded. And we did thoroughly go thru the word doc with all the features, but I didn't even get a DB design out of it.

    Most times for the little things I pay by the hour.

    I don't live in a country now or even my prior city where there were top notch people. That's why I hire from anywhere in the world.


    Michelle

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    I do pity people who are looking for web professionals, as it's an unregulated industry, as acknowledged above. It would be nice to have some kind of accreditation, but then again, that would have plenty of downsides, too. Perhaps it's best for the web to stay open like this. One thing you can do it seek out web design companies that have a good reputation among their peers. There is a thriving community of prominent web designers and "standardistas" out there. They may be quite expensive, though. Another option is to look into the various CSMes. The one I use has a vibrant community, and has a list of approved "pro" members that are very good. To get that status, the CMS company has looked at their work and judged it to be of a high standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exoticpublishing
    Re: the programmer, there was a contract in place. I didn't even know he ripped me off until I FINALLY found a programmer to go look at what he had put on teh server. I ended up paying $1,500 for a skin of some sort to be uploaded. And we did thoroughly go thru the word doc with all the features, but I didn't even get a DB design out of it.
    I thought you were referring to a word press site? A word press site wouldn't function without a database. $1500 sounds in the ball park for WP set-up and design without custom programming work.
    The only code I hate more than my own is everyone else's.

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    Re: the programmer, there was a contract in place. I didn't even know he ripped me off until I FINALLY found a programmer to go look at what he had put on teh server. I ended up paying $1,500 for a skin of some sort to be uploaded. And we did thoroughly go thru the word doc with all the features, but I didn't even get a DB design out of it.
    Maybe you should look into what you actually got. I've never heard the word 'skin' in actual web design. Maybe you're referring to a template. Did they provide after support, or help for your website, any training of any kind? These are the things you should look into.

    Most times for the little things I pay by the hour.
    It's great to feel you're in control, but sometimes it takes 20+ hours to achieve something properly, depending on what it is. Having said this controlling their hours could potential be a dangerous thing as they might need a certain amount of time for something to work right.

    when I hire a website coder, it's one guy who has no boss as I am his boss.
    I think you're reading this a little wrong. Essentially the person is his own boss, and he's achievement should be to keep you happy and to be in business at the same time. For you to be his boss you'd have to give him a salary every month, have a business with a knowledge base of some sort, and provide a lot more than just a one-off payment for a one or more services. I hope this helps.
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    It's not all doom and gloom. It's about procedure, nothing else.

    When you give a proposal / contract it states what will be done. This binding agreement is between two people and they have to live up to their part of the deal. Now whether somebody is using CSS 2.1 or CSS3 does not influence the price, or at all mean's you've been ripped off. This depends on a web designer, and what they are comfortable working with. Personally I like CSS3, so I work with that. I will soon (despite other's opinion) start using HTML5, because I personally feel this is the future. I will not charge more if I am using HTML5, it's just a personal preferance. If somebody is using this to sell something in he's sales pitch, then I'd really question the other vital parts they are missing, like support, maintenance, security etc.

    If the web designer uses wire-frames, and break's stages apart then you'd limit confusion. This web designer (presuming he works like the rest of us) would have to provide some training and support on his system.

    Another key point to raise is the warrantee. The warrantee comes with x amount of FREE hours for x amount of months which would cover any mishaps to your site. I am not too sure what is means by ripped off? Looking at this thread, it's subject is 2.1 or 3.0?, where as the issue what not CSS to begin with. I think it's more likely that you don't know enough to judge whether you've been ripped off. The only real way to know is to see the proposal and what you paid for and what you got, and what they did.

    The testing, training and delivery phase do not mean immediate payment to many. They only mean immediate payment if the host is done by the client. Most web designers would happily host a website for a couple of weeks and wait for payment until the client is happy with it, presuming both parties stick within their agreements.

    Again I hope this helps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    I do pity people who are looking for web professionals, as it's an unregulated industry, as acknowledged above. It would be nice to have some kind of accreditation, but then again, that would have plenty of downsides, too. Perhaps it's best for the web to stay open like this. One thing you can do it seek out web design companies that have a good reputation among their peers. There is a thriving community of prominent web designers and "standardistas" out there. They may be quite expensive, though. Another option is to look into the various CSMes. The one I use has a vibrant community, and has a list of approved "pro" members that are very good. To get that status, the CMS company has looked at their work and judged it to be of a high standard.
    Which one do you use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    I thought you were referring to a word press site? A word press site wouldn't function without a database. $1500 sounds in the ball park for WP set-up and design without custom programming work.
    $1,500 to setup WP & design a site & code it? I would never pay that much. You must have a very high hourly rate.

    No, this was a full fledged application, nothing to do with WP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exoticpublishing View Post
    Which one do you use?
    I use ExpressionEngine. The pro developers page is here:

    http://expressionengine.com/professionals

    (I'm not listed there, BTW. )


    Quote Originally Posted by exoticpublishing View Post
    $1,500 to setup WP & design a site & code it? I would never pay that much. You must have a very high hourly rate.
    I would consider it a very low rate, TBH. It can take quite a long time to do all that nicely. People don't seem to think twice about buying a car for their business at $40,000, yet baulk at paying a few thousand for a carefully designed and coded website—which is arguably a much more powerful tool for making making money. It's quite ridiculous, and is partly why the web is so full of junk sites. YGWYPF.

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    [QUOTE=Sega;5106224]Maybe you should look into what you actually got. I've never heard the word 'skin' in actual web design. Maybe you're referring to a template. Did they provide after support, or help for your website, any training of any kind? These are the things you should look into.

    Don't remember what it was called, thought it was a skin, nothing to do with WP. It was useless, it was just the shell or something, no code was actually ever created.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    It's great to feel you're in control, but sometimes it takes 20+ hours to achieve something properly, depending on what it is. Having said this controlling their hours could potential be a dangerous thing as they might need a certain amount of time for something to work right.
    I almost always ask for an estimate before I give the go ahead. If they feel more time is needed, they have to tell me first. I state this upfront.

    There's no unlimited pool of money here where someone can just do whatever they want & obviously they aren't on salary. I've already dealt with those types too where they start doing tasks that weren't asked of them causing me to have to pay money I didn't approve b/c they went off & decided what THEY needed to be done. Again, people who think they are the boss & I'm not.

    Both times this happened to me, what they did was useless. It wasn't even something that was crucial. Of course all this does is stress me out, but I don't pay for work not approved. I state that upfront too. If a team member can't respect the company's bottom line & understand that not all companies are made of money, they aren't the worker for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    I think you're reading this a little wrong. Essentially the person is his own boss, and he's achievement should be to keep you happy and to be in business at the same time. For you to be his boss you'd have to give him a salary every month, have a business with a knowledge base of some sort, and provide a lot more than just a one-off payment for a one or more services. I hope this helps.
    Nope, not reading anything wrong. I don't believe that just b/c someone has the title of IC & isn't an "employee", that they don't have a boss. That's just semantics. If you work for a company, you have a boss even if you only work for that company for a month.

    I live in the real world.

    Unfortunately this is what a lot of self employed ICs do online so they can do whatever they want & not have to be responsible. I feel it's one of the biggest problems with the online workforce. I don't generally hire people for just one or two tasks, no real company ever does b/c it's too hard to retrain new people. That costs the company money & more stress. I am only seeking a long term relationship even if it is very p/t & the contract reflects that. That's of course assuming we work well together, they have above average communication skills, are honest & have a good work ethic.

    My company has policies & procedures in place. I don't hire people who think they have the right to run my company & tell me what to do. It's the other way around. That's not to say I treat people like garbage b/c I don't, but I am the boss & I run my company, no one else does. If someone wants to be a cowboy & run off here & there or talk down to me strutting their stuff just to prove they hold that title of "IC", then I'm not interested.

    I'm always willing to listen if they can't follow one procedure, or they have a better suggestion, but all of my policies & procedures are in place to streamline the company. In fact, compared to some companies, I'm have very few policies, but no, I'm not one of those online companies that doesn't act like an offline company. IMO, they make all legit companies look bad b/c then ICs get it into their head that they don't have to answer to anyone.

    I don't wish to hire people who want to make things difficult & not learn, organization & grow.

    Of course b/c they are ICs, they decide their own hours & days they work & they notify me when they need to take their yearly vacation or the odd long weekend, but I'm not looking for people who are absent from work all the time, don't wish to be a part of the company & help it grow.

    It's all in the attitude.


    Michelle

  22. #72
    SitePoint Evangelist cgacfox's Avatar
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    I had a client that wanted updates to her site. I didn't write the original code but saw that it was a mess and was poorly written years ago. I ended up re-writing all the code so that it was clean and commented it so that if someone else came along, they would be able to see what I did and add to it or remove whatever needed to be removed. BTW, she is still my client and will be for some time. I saved her a lot of time and money just doing what I did. I didn't charge her extra for it either as I needed a cleaner canvas to work with.

  23. #73
    Love *********'s Forum ep2012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgacfox View Post
    I had a client that wanted updates to her site. I didn't write the original code but saw that it was a mess and was poorly written years ago. I ended up re-writing all the code so that it was clean and commented it so that if someone else came along, they would be able to see what I did and add to it or remove whatever needed to be removed. BTW, she is still my client and will be for some time. I saved her a lot of time and money just doing what I did. I didn't charge her extra for it either as I needed a cleaner canvas to work with.
    That's very nice of you. We all need website coders like you

    I hope she thanked you LOL


    Michelle

  24. #74
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by exoticpublishing View Post
    That's very nice of you. We all need website coders like you

    I hope she thanked you LOL


    Michelle
    uhhh… I thought that is what you don't want people to do … go off on their own and do their own thing without making you aware. The only difference here is that the work was done free. Professionals don't work for free artist do. No actual professional would do free work like that. Only students trying to "learn" and "improve" to have things in their portfolio. Sure sign of an amateur and logic that has probably only improved in their eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m
    I would consider it a very low rate, TBH. It can take quite a long time to do all that nicely.
    I was referring to set-up and theme installation not a custom theme. Perhaps some *small theme tweaks but nothing more. None the less, I don't do that type of work myself but it is what I have seen. I think I rather live on the street than work with WP… yuck. Great marketing and good UI… but nothing more.

    $1,500 to setup WP & design a site & code it? I would never pay that much. You must have a very high hourly rate.
    I work 9 – 5 as an in-house software engineer – no freelancing for me. I wouldn't even consider it until I have at the very least 5 years of professional experience. Besides all the other things outside of programming that one needs to manage scare me to be quit frank.
    The only code I hate more than my own is everyone else's.

  25. #75
    Love *********'s Forum ep2012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    uhhh… I thought that is what you don't want people to do … go off on their own and do their own thing without making you aware. The only difference here is that the work was done free. Professionals don't work for free artist do. No actual professional would do free work like that. Only students trying to "learn" and "improve" to have things in their portfolio. Sure sign of an amateur and logic that has probably only improved in their eyes.
    I have no idea what you are talking about.

    You seem to like to start arguments & accuse me of things. This is the 2nd thread of mine you have done this on. Maybe it's time to get out more & do other things besides sit on here & argue with me.

    So, if that's how you going to continue to talk to me, then just don't talk to me, as I'm in no mood to argue with a "know it all" who really doesn't have a clue what I mean & doesn't know me at all.

    Thanks


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