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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by samanime View Post
    I think the my interpretation [...] is correct and yours is wrong. Simple. =p
    Good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by samanime View Post
    You've yet to provide any real backing for why lists are pointless.
    False...

    Quote Originally Posted by samanime View Post
    I really hate to sound "elitist", but when you have all of the users that are agreeing on this topic agreeing...
    ... gratuitous...

    Quote Originally Posted by samanime View Post
    it usually means there is something to it (since half the time we are all disagreeing with each other over little nitpicky things =p).
    ... superficial.

    What's that even suppose to mean: if I gather enough votes I'm right? If I surround my self with enough people believing the same interpretation, I've found the truth? Yes, there is comfort in numbers, but here, I beg to disagree. Most of those you invoke, speak of HTML5 like of some parallel universe they won't ever go to, yet they have an opinion on everything about it.

    Not good enough.


    Finally, there is a fundamental concept: not every bunch of links means a list of links. Simple. It's just that you're "programmed" to believe so.

    And I don't rant about it.

  2. #77
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    Off Topic:

    I have worked with a number of local groups, to build web sites for them. On the whole, the committee members have little or no experience of web sites and the internet, so we start with very basic stuff. Ask them to think about which pages they would like to include, and what do they do? They make a list. Every time.

  3. #78
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    Off Topic:

    Well T.B., I'm not after exterminating lists! LOL

    But I'll spare those that use lists in a manner that suits me. How's that sounds!?

    ... and yes, Jason, I know that "babkis" is not from that particular "vocabulary". But you can always pick something else to "color".

  4. #79
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    If you would point out some hard evidence, I would love to see it. Like I said, I like being proven wrong. Thus far your examples only serve my point.

    And while I'm not saying that just because there are a bunch of "votes" for my opinion makes it right. However, it is evidence that it is likely the correct answer when a number of well educated people all come to the same agreement.

    I noticed you chose the word "bunch" to describe a group of links. You are correct, they don't all have to be lists. They can be part of a paragraph. They can be divided up into different divs. There are lots of different ways they can exist... but being all thrown together without any other markup isn't one of them. A list of links should be marked up as a list.

    If I have: Cookies, Milk, Pictures, Soup

    That is a list. If I take out the commas, that doesn't make it not be a list: Cookies Milk Pictures Soup... it just makes it a poorly written down list.

  5. #80
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    ... but putting a list in there makes for a poorly written paragraph.

    Though it's just links. No paragraph. Not list. Just links in nav. Like how words in a heading, better yet, are just words. And you can accept the existence of a gibberish heading, no? But that's just a long long long ... long shot to make you see my way. If it's to stupid of an example, let it slide, please. Look at the forest, don't let the trees stand in your way.

    You should really let go of the whole elite and educated people argument. Most elites and most educated people are a million times wrong before they are right a single time. And they always have a hard time excepting it. That's why most young people learn faster. They are not their own enemies when it comes to acknowledge change. They don't care to belong so much, they care to learn.

    I don't seek to belong and I don't seek to antagonize. I only seek to put my ideas to the test. Really test them. If I question so much is because of that. I'm in a war with myself, rather than with you or anybody else.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by itmitică View Post
    Just links in nav.
    Which without delimiters means it's just gibberish... which is the ONLY part of your argument anyone is having trouble with. you mentioned |, I mentioned commas -- DELIMITERS. Something to say how many books on the shelf, instead of ripping off the covers and bindings and slapping all the pages from different books on the shelf end to end.

    Which is what using only anchors MEANS. This one minor part you are defending is the entire issue of contention... since again, as anchors do not change the meaning of the content OR add structure to the document... It's WHY they're inline-level, they are NOT structural elements.

    <a href="#">Ice Cream</a> <a href="#">Sandwiches</a>
    Is the same thing as saying:
    "Ice Cream Sandwiches"

    Leaving you guessing if that's one item, two items, or three items. More true on ua's that don't honor links in flow text and list them separately; like teletype and some Lynx styles. Anchors, just like all the other phrase and special inlines are not delimiters or structural. SPAN doesn't change structure, BOLD doesn't change structure, whitespace doesn't change structure... so you have no structure and are just slapping words in there any old way instead of providing clear STRUCTURAL separation! (even CDATA provides more structure than inline-level tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by itmitică View Post
    Like how words in a heading, better yet, are just words.
    As a single element/entity which is why they have a BLOCK LEVEL container.

    Quote Originally Posted by itmitică View Post
    And you can accept the existence of a gibberish heading, no?
    Why would you accept gibberish anywhere? If that's your attitude, no wonder you're advocating making the content of NAV be gibberish.

    Though the way you talk about lists starts to sound like the anti-table mafia folks, who keep advocating "don't use tables even on tabular data" -- the same nonsense that's responsible for the list abuse found on pages like say... the new vBull 4 skins that use hundreds of K of markup to do tens of K's job.

  7. #82
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    We're back were we started Jason.

    If the content in nav is just links it cannot be "gibberish" because it doesn't have to make sense, in a belletristic way.

    For you, this
    Code:
    Uită-te la Pozele mele. Iți dau Prăjituri.
    or this
    is the same. "Gibberish". Yet the nav element along with the anchors relay the message: a bunch of links for navigation. It's not a lonely out of context list element filled with links, appearing out of the blue. There is no such thing. Or it shoudn't exist in the first place. Lists like that exist because they are opportunistically fitted for those using them. Reason enough for some to believe it's also new found semantic.

    I said more then twice in this thread: if you have content in links in nav complex enough, you can resort to other elements, semantic or not, to distinguish among them. I can quote me if you like, but I don't feel I have too, it's understood, I hope.

    That doesn't mean that it has to stop being "gibberish" now, after these "handout" changes. nav is a bunch of links. A bunch of links is "gibberish". And because it's "gibberish" it's repairable by lists.

    If you have a different content, besides simple links, a heading, a preparatory paragraph or two then yes, it stops being just a bunch of links and it stops being "gibberish". It's a different type of content which requires different a approach.

    But even now, with this complex content, it doesn't mean that I require to have a list.

    And I sound like me. The rest of the anti-table whatever is stretching to provide canvas for coloring, isn't it?

  8. #83
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    Where are you getting this magical "because it's in a nav it has a special meaning" thing?

    It doesn't. It's not in the spec, so that's not what it means. Technical specs are technical for a reason. If it says you can do it, you can. If it doesn't say you can, you can't.

    Also, that first one isn't gibberish to me. Even though I don't even know what language that is, I know the first is a sentence and the second is two words. From that I can infer that the two words are related in some manner. With the second, I know there are two words and that's the extent of what I know. It's the same with HTML. The computer can't truly understand what we are saying, but it can infer information based on the structure.

    That's the whole point of HTML. You can't just leave stuff out because you think it's unnecessary. Unless the spec indicates such, the browser won't infer what you think it infers.

  9. #84
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    What's the magic you talk about? You started somewhere I didn't quite follow.

  10. #85
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    Sorry the thread has run its course and seems to be bogged down on lists rather than about the more general question of html5.

    Both sides of the argument have been put forward so readers can make their own minds up.

    Thread Closed.


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