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  1. #26
    Life is not a malfunction gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    TechnoBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehYoyo View Post
    Photoshop is absolutely necessary, in my opinion.
    Hmm - then I guess I must be some kind of genius, because I've never used it.

    Just as well we're all entitled to our own opinions.

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Even though I can't say for certain a particular site has been through mock-up stage most of the time it is blatantly obvious that a site skipped the stage because those types of sites are without a doubt, mundane, boring, look the same or just plain eyesores. While some may not have a high respect for design in the aesthetic sense people who do can easily pick them out. If people were fine with mundane, boring but useable and accessible sites there would be no need for graphic designers. Interacting with graphic designers who do not understand the technical implications can be frustrating. So I can fully understanding coping out and saying "Photoshop is the Devil" instead of taking the time necessary to provide them with knowledge to create technically sound wire frames without blasting them for using a tool they know well.
    The only code I hate more than my own is everyone else's.

  3. #28
    Life is not a malfunction gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    TechnoBear's Avatar
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    My point was really that what suits one person as a work method doesn't suit another. There some truly awful sites that have been through a mock-up stage, just as there are truly awful sites that haven't. People are different - each of us has a preferred method of working, according to our gifts and skills. It's a case of finding the best way for you.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    If people were fine with mundane, boring but useable and accessible sites there would be no need for graphic designers.
    Lose the 'boring' and we could only dream... But I will admit I'm much more utilitarian than others; I'd rather have an accessible website I can use than a pretty picture I can't navigate, read, or use for what a website is for, the exchange of information.

    Which is where most of my problem with the "draw a pretty picture in photoshop first" approach really comes from -- I've rarely if ever seen a page done with that approach that wasn't too wide for my netbook, uselessly tiny without zooming on my 17" Laptop, broken at 120dpi on my desktop with it's three 24" displays, and weren't total bandwidth disasters meaning good luck getting me to visit them on the free bandwidth on my CR-48 or if I'm up at a friends house in Coos County where 33.6 dialup is a good day.

    It's why the very pretty but ultimately useless PSD jockey based sites typically are only found on personal pages for the designers or design firms, small businesses who don't know any better and were led down the garden path by said designers, or large brick and mortars for whom a web presence is an afterthought... and why the big successes of the Internet I'd find it hard to believe had a PSD as their starting point.

    Don't get me wrong -- Photoshop is a great tool -- AFTER you have semantic markup of content and a working layout; but slapping together a layout in it first typically results in elements that to be frank, aren't viable for web deployment if you actually care about having people use the page.

  5. #30
    <title class="lol"> bronze trophy TehYoyo's Avatar
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    We're not saying that web developers should take the Photoshop layout and put together a website using only images. Obviously, that's bad practice. We're just saying that, in our own opinions, Photoshop is a good tool, even before you have any code down (especially before you have your code down, in my own, humble opinion. We're not trying (well, I can't speak for others) to annoy you, insult your design process, or anything like that.

    ~TehYoyo

    Note: Here's what a design mock-up might look like in my process. Totally serious.

    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehYoyo View Post
    We're not trying (well, I can't speak for others) to annoy you, insult your design process, or anything like that.
    The problem being by the time most everyone I've seen use that approach has a page done, it's a broken inaccessible mess, and that DOES annoy me; and a great many other users. It's why on the whole the Internet is becoming less and less useful to me as a tool thanks to all the "But I can do it in photoshop" idiocy turning site after site into bloated, slow buggy inaccessible train wrecks. It's as bad if not WORSE than the endless Javascript for nothing nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by TehYoyo View Post
    Note: Here's what a design mock-up might look like in my process. Totally serious.
    Which is a PERFECT example of what I'm talking about -- where's your CONTENT? Content should dictate layout, NOT the other way around... You've got a bunch of colored boxes -- ooh, impressive.... and completely meaningless... and probably already 'broken' and in need of so much revision by the time you plug content into it, you need to throw it out and start over on the layout anyways -- at which point all you did was waste time on some goofy picture that has NOTHING to do with a web layout.

    To compare, I typically would start out with something like this:
    http://www.cutcodedown.com/for_other.../template.html

    Actually, not true -- because I'd have the actual content or at the very least a reasonable facsimile of it in there, so I can tell if my layout actually fits the content. If you don't have the content in there, or at least something remotely resembling the content, what business do you have making a bunch of colored boxes of varying sizes? Even people who work in print know better than that (or at least they used to -- given some of the infographic and slide-show asshattery I've seen of late... not so much?)

    ... and the real laugh is, I bet I can swap that layout around and make color/font/other changes many times faster than you could ever do dragging and dropping layers around.

  7. #32
    <title class="lol"> bronze trophy TehYoyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by medxpower View Post
    This is very normal and anyone will be confused by reading those html and css code. If you want to learn to build website i would suggest you to use youtube video.
    Wait a second...I wouldn't recommend that at all. In fact, that's pretty much the opposite of what I would suggest.

    To deathshadow60:
    I've mentioned before that I don't want to criticize your views(or at least I thought I did). This seems to be evolving into a (well, in my view one-sided) flame war so I think it's best if we just forget it.

    ~TehYoyo

  8. #33
    billycundiff{float:left;} silver trophybronze trophy RyanReese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Which again, I've been calling W3Schools webrot for almost a decade now. Possibly one of the worst places to try and learn ANYTHING about writing HTML/CSS.
    Sadly I started there . I also joined their forums first. Over there isn't too bad, they have...Snyder is it? Some really smart web design person, can't remember who it is, nor can I be bothered to find it out.
    Always looking for web design/development work.
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  9. #34
    SitePoint Enthusiast Sanctus's Avatar
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    You gentlemen are still going on about this? lol W3Schools have halfway decent short tutorials. Google search might be your new best friend to fill in any gaps.

  10. #35
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    People do things in different ways and in ways that work for them. Just because we don't all do it the same way doesn't mean it is any less effective.
    DS, I know your thoughts and feeling towards 'pretty picture' designs and the usability car crashes that CAN SOMETIMES result from the plan being designed before content added but it doesn't always happen that way.

    IMHO what TehYoyo has there is a wireframe rather than a mockup and has some idea of content that would be included (correct me if I am wrong). It is practically impossible to put together a coherent design without some idea of content and whilst I am not going to get drawn into a flame pit on this, it is possible to PS a rough plan before writing the HTML - just as I would sketch the design roughly on paper after deciding the MAIN areas to be included.

    People learn in different ways and shooting them in the @ss with a crossbow for not doing it YOUR way is a bit medieval. Put a cork on your bolts please Jason
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  11. #36
    SitePoint Member Cythes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikeZ View Post
    People learn in different ways and shooting them in the @ss with a crossbow for not doing it YOUR way is a bit medieval. Put a cork on your bolts please Jason
    ^That is funny.

    On topic, I have been learning through books and other things mostly apress stuff. I have been thinking of switching to sitepoints books for a while now. If I ever get the money for it I'm sure I will revamp my library with the latest and the greatest. Including the new books on HTML5 and CSS3. Since I have been curious about it just never really got around to learning it. From what I can tell it keeps most of the XHTML standard intact while adding new more simple things like a set doctype tag instead of a giant link. I'm sure there is more to it then that though. Either way that is the future plans at least.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehYoyo View Post
    Wait a second...I wouldn't recommend that at all. In fact, that's pretty much the opposite of what I would suggest.

    To deathshadow60:
    I've mentioned before that I don't want to criticize your views(or at least I thought I did). This seems to be evolving into a (well, in my view one-sided) flame war so I think it's best if we just forget it.

    ~TehYoyo
    We all have opinions and they are usually very strong.

    Sitepoint is intended to be a place for intelligent and civil discussion. Sometimes a member will become too 'emotionally charged' about an idea and, through the anonymity of the forum, state his case very strongly without careful consideration of how the particular words will be interpreted.

    I commend you, TehYoyo for taking "the high road" here. But I want to submit that I agree with BOTH PERSPECTIVES.
    The Internet, to a hard-core coder like me, is a set of "information" that must be presented in a clear, concise, semantically-sensible manner. I approach all websites from the CONTENT perspective.

    On the other hand, unless you are using Lynx as your browser, we cannot ignore the fact that STYLE and APPEARANCE are crucial. This is particularly important when your site is attempting to win-over people (ie Sell something).
    A successful website - IMHO - is one with the proper blend of both these ideals.

    Now. Can we all "agree to disagree" and put this discussion to bed?
    Don't be yourself. Be someone a little nicer. -Mignon McLaughlin, journalist and author (1913-1983)


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  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehYoyo
    Note: Here's what a design mock-up might look like in my process. Totally serious.
    That isn't really what I was referring to. I was referring to a mock-up that establishes the content of the home page, branding and over all "look and feel" that is to be carried through to all other pages. If a designer were to hand me what you just provided I would just look at them and stare. The mock-up should be exactly what the home page should look like not just merely blocks with no context nor branding. I can do that in my sleep. I'm interested in the home page context + overall look and feel from a mock-up.
    The only code I hate more than my own is everyone else's.

  14. #39
    <title class="lol"> bronze trophy TehYoyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikeZ View Post
    IMHO what TehYoyo has there is a wireframe rather than a mockup and has some idea of content that would be included (correct me if I am wrong).
    Nothing to correct The only reason I even had that wireframe (digitally, that is) in the first place was because I stupidly did my sketch in pen

    Quote Originally Posted by Cythes View Post
    ^That is funny.

    On topic, I have been learning through books and other things mostly apress stuff. I have been thinking of switching to sitepoints books for a while now. If I ever get the money for it I'm sure I will revamp my library with the latest and the greatest. Including the new books on HTML5 and CSS3. Since I have been curious about it just never really got around to learning it. From what I can tell it keeps most of the XHTML standard intact while adding new more simple things like a set doctype tag instead of a giant link. I'm sure there is more to it then that though. Either way that is the future plans at least.
    I, personally, love the Sitepoint books...all of them (well, except this photography one I'm reading, but that's because I don't have a camera :/ ) and find them very interesting (which is beautiful for a coding book) and informative (which is valuable for a coding book).

    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    That isn't really what I was referring to. I was referring to a mock-up that establishes the content of the home page, branding and over all "look and feel" that is to be carried through to all other pages. If a designer were to hand me what you just provided I would just look at them and stare. The mock-up should be exactly what the home page should look like not just merely blocks with no context nor branding. I can do that in my sleep. I'm interested in the home page context + overall look and feel from a mock-up.
    That's what I progress to, eventually.

    ~TehYoyo

    Note: Glad we've turned this thread around
    Last edited by TehYoyo; Mar 1, 2012 at 14:24. Reason: Added Note

  15. #40
    SitePoint Zealot irishman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParkinT View Post
    We all have opinions and they are usually very strong.

    Sitepoint is intended to be a place for intelligent and civil discussion. Sometimes a member will become too 'emotionally charged' about an idea and, through the anonymity of the forum, state his case very strongly without careful consideration of how the particular words will be interpreted.
    So glad you posted this. I have only been a member for a few weeks and have already considered leaving due to the number of (IMHO) over-critical comments I have seen. For a noobie like myself it is very discouraging to read these as they only foster divisions between those of us who are learning (but darent ask anything for fear of getting our heads bitten off) and those with the knowledge we aspire to.

  16. #41
    Robert Wellock silver trophybronze trophy xhtmlcoder's Avatar
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    One of the reasons SPF has the 'Getting Started With Web Design' forum is for the more newbie web design questions so typically the regulars should observe; many of the Original Posters tend to be less experienced and so forth, and respond appropriately etc.

  17. #42
    <title class="lol"> bronze trophy TehYoyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishman View Post
    So glad you posted this. I have only been a member for a few weeks and have already considered leaving due to the number of (IMHO) over-critical comments I have seen. For a noobie like myself it is very discouraging to read these as they only foster divisions between those of us who are learning (but darent ask anything for fear of getting our heads bitten off) and those with the knowledge we aspire to.
    I sure hope that isn't the case with other new members.

    To quote the forum description...
    Quote Originally Posted by Getting Started With Web Design
    A place for those new to web design to ask questions about where to begin, what's involved, and where to turn next. No question is too simple!
    ~TehYoyo

  18. #43
    SitePoint Member Cythes's Avatar
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    I knew there was a reason I learned to take constructive crit the right way. They dont mark down your markup to mean, they do it so you will see true success.
    But I can see where Irishman also see's it as being over critical. Truth being we dont know how much effort some one put into making a site.
    It might look like something from the 90's but to them it might be something awesome. It might have been the first site they ever built, it can be a little deminishing to be all proud of something just get get knocked on your rear at the end of the day by someone who is 20x greater then you are. -- We all start somewhere.

    But in respect to the people who are reviewing It only makes sense that you would want to be honest because if your not it could lead to issues for the person doing the design. Plus if they did not want the brutal they should not post it. After its posted its open to be fired at.

    -I did not spell check sorry if there are errors there.

  19. #44
    <title class="lol"> bronze trophy TehYoyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cythes View Post
    I knew there was a reason I learned to take constructive crit the right way. They dont mark down your markup to mean, they do it so you will see true success.
    But I can see where Irishman also see's it as being over critical. Truth being we dont know how much effort some one put into making a site.
    It might look like something from the 90's but to them it might be something awesome. It might have been the first site they ever built, it can be a little deminishing to be all proud of something just get get knocked on your rear at the end of the day by someone who is 20x greater then you are. -- We all start somewhere.

    But in respect to the people who are reviewing It only makes sense that you would want to be honest because if your not it could lead to issues for the person doing the design. Plus if they did not want the brutal they should not post it. After its posted its open to be fired at.

    -I did not spell check sorry if there are errors there.
    You can be proud of something and still take constructive criticism. I think it's a skill to learn and to have (a necessity, really). Although some people do cross the line. I just hope I'm not one of them.

    Constructive criticism is how you grow. If I looked at a (in my own opinion) terrible site, and then I posted that it was fantastic and that the OP should be extremely proud of it, would that help him/her learn? No. Of course not. In fact, I think it would stop their learning and growth. Therefore, I try to be honest but not mean.

    ~TehYoyo

  20. #45
    SitePoint Member Cythes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehYoyo View Post
    Constructive criticism is how you grow. If I looked at a (in my own opinion) terrible site, and then I posted that it was fantastic and that the OP should be extremely proud of it, would that help him/her learn? No. Of course not. In fact, I think it would stop their learning and growth. Therefore, I try to be honest but not mean.
    ~TehYoyo
    Which is exactly what I said in regards to the people doing reviews. (I see both sides of the coin mind you... which is rather rare. I can see why some would take a review as being harsh but I also see why the review is harsh...) I know with out Joomla my sites I hand code are not the most pretty to look at and in all frankness they are basic. But I can still say I know how to code and I am trying to get better with it.

    -This is a live and learn kind of business-

  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60
    Lose the 'boring' and we could only dream... But I will admit I'm much more utilitarian than others; I'd rather have an accessible website I can use than a pretty picture I can't navigate, read, or use for what a website is for, the exchange of information.

    Which is where most of my problem with the "draw a pretty picture in photoshop first" approach really comes from -- I've rarely if ever seen a page done with that approach that wasn't too wide for my netbook, uselessly tiny without zooming on my 17" Laptop, broken at 120dpi on my desktop with it's three 24" displays, and weren't total bandwidth disasters meaning good luck getting me to visit them on the free bandwidth on my CR-48 or if I'm up at a friends house in Coos County where 33.6 dialup is a good day.

    It's why the very pretty but ultimately useless PSD jockey based sites typically are only found on personal pages for the designers or design firms, small businesses who don't know any better and were led down the garden path by said designers, or large brick and mortars for whom a web presence is an afterthought... and why the big successes of the Internet I'd find it hard to believe had a PSD as their starting point.

    Don't get me wrong -- Photoshop is a great tool -- AFTER you have semantic markup of content and a working layout; but slapping together a layout in it first typically results in elements that to be frank, aren't viable for web deployment if you actually care about having people use the page.
    You keep on mentioning the big successes of the web but you can't compare the likes of fb, twitter, amazon, etc to these small personal and business sites. The sites you are referring to are dynamically driven web applications with a high level of user interactivity. That is a far cry from *most* of the types that show up in design galleries. Smaller sites such as those for small businesses tend not to have a lot of content. So are we are to tell them they can't have a website because they have nothing meaningful/new to add the the web. So I guess where I am getting at is that larger application type sites can get away with a much lets say "cleaner" but I really mean is bland design because there is so much content and user interactivity to balance aesthetics out. Whereas, a smaller sites tend not to have much content nor user interactivity so they balance it out with more aesthetics. Otherwise I guess the site would be worthless but most of those types of sites are pretty much worthless from the beginning… design isn't the cause.
    The only code I hate more than my own is everyone else's.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Zealot irishman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cythes View Post

    -This is a live and learn kind of business-
    ..and thats how it should be. My point wasnt that I or other noobies may not be able to take criticism, its just that some of the comments made in the forums (and not just the reviews) are overly aggressive with an overuse of CAPITALS and exclamation marks!!! which when allied to some rather caustic and sarcastic comments, are not at all helpful.
    Everyone has an opinion and there is no need for some posters to shout down others who are simply offering their honest opinion and/or advice. If someone disagrees with anothers statements instead of launching into an attack on the first person they could show a little more respect, perhaps starting with a 'I see what you are saying but I feel...' or ' I have found that way of doing things a bit slow/old fashioned, you could try this...'

    Live & let live

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishman View Post
    ..and thats how it should be. My point wasnt that I or other noobies may not be able to take criticism, its just that some of the comments made in the forums (and not just the reviews) are overly aggressive with an overuse of CAPITALS and exclamation marks!!! which when allied to some rather caustic and sarcastic comments, are not at all helpful.
    Something is crap, you call it crap. This namby pamby dancing around it does nothing but promote the status quo. GOD FORBID you say something negative about anything... To blazes with that and that type of thinking.

    I was raised to believe you tear everything down to the bones and build it back up, that's how you make things BETTER. Artisanship, craftsmanship, PRIDE in ones work...

    ... and there's SO MUCH bad advice out there, that unless we start telling nubes they're having the rose coloured glasses slapped on their head and are being led down the garden path -- by IDIOTIC NONSENSE like jquery, HTML 5, WYSIWYGS, tables for layout, "Oh everyone has broadband", drawing goofy pretty pictures before you even think about content, flawed and broken approaches to building websites -- we'll never have anything approaching progress otherwise.

    As George Bernard Shaw said: The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man..

    Though it could just be that period of military service talking... or my being a genuine New England Yankee. Ya cahn't geht theyah frum heeya isn't just a catch-phrase, it's a way of life.

    "When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can't run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn't fight it's way out of a piss-soaked paper bag. As for the types of comments I make -- Sometimes I just, By God, get carried away with my own eloquence."
    -- General George S. Patton Jr.

    So if the kumbaya singing hand-holding tofu eating millivegan PETA donating drum circle crowd can't handle it, OH WELL!!! Maybe they should look in the mirror or take a breather to realize that we're trying to HELP make better pages that are useful to everyone. If you're knee jerking into a panic over the comments someone else makes, MAYBE, JUST MAYBE it's time for a bit of self reflection.

    Perish the thought. No, let's just slap on those rose coloured glasses, pat them on the back and say well done no matter how much bad advice they've taken and bad practices they've used. THAT HELPS EVERYBODY!

    If you don't want help and can't take people pointing out things you did wrong on your page -- what's broken and what to do about it, what are you even asking for?

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Black Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    So if the kumbaya singing hand-holding tofu eating millivegan PETA donating drum circle crowd can't handle it, OH WELL!!!
    My fellow libs feel the same way about me. I ain't vegan (though I respect them), I don't do drum circles (though I love drums), I'm not a member of PETA (though I am an animal rescuer), and I don't sing kumbaya or much else because I sound like a rusted foghorn (though I do sing along with Eddie Vedder and don't care if my voice isn't in the same galactic quadrant of talent as his). I'd much rather kick Rush Limbaugh's scraggly hind end than coo over him and help him "understand." But ...

    When I came into SP dragging my first, horrifically busted Web site in tow to find out why something didn't work like it was supposed to, I expected to get mocked, vilified, sneered at, and chased out with my tail tucked between my legs. Didn't happen. The folks here (some of whom are still here) were occasionally harsh ("what the hell did you do THAT for? Try this instead") but very supportive and very helpful. They still are.

    Jason's like the crusty old b@stard Marine DI who slaps you upside your helmet and screams at you about your mama every time you do something wrong -- then he shows you how to do it right, and slaps you upside the head again so you'll remember. It doesn't bother me because I face far worse than his all-caps grumpiness and sharp-tongued correctives every working day (I teach middle schoolers and have worked in lockdown facilities -- taking a gun off a kid twice your size who's screaming and spraying spit while trying to get his hand on your throat will inure you to online vituperation very quickly). But I understand others are more easily intimidated and put off by Jason's rough approach, especially those who are new to the field and insecure about their designs and code to begin with.

    Newbies who are put off by Jason's approach: I understand how you feel. I was you not that long ago. I invite you to stick around and learn: that's what we're here to do, to help you (and each other) learn. Jason is a hell of a good teacher, and if you can pick through the rough language and skip past the all-caps snarling, you'll find a lot of good info in his posts. I'm a teacher, and I've also been Jason, or very close to it -- I almost lost a job once by going overboard and yelling at the kids too hard. I know how he feels. It's frustrating to see people make the same mistakes over and over again, and not respond the way you want them to when you correct them. I had to learn to moderate my frustration. I'm still learning, and have to forcibly rein myself in on occasion.

    Jason: You have a real gift for instruction. When you "cork your bolts" and get down to teaching, you're superb at it. (You have a PM in your box from me about this same subject.) But you won't make your point in this milieu by howling and ranting at the newbies (especially when they're not 100% sure what you're berating them about -- they don't know as much as you. Hell, I don't know half of what you know, and I've got the spiffy green mantle). They'll just leave and go somewhere else where someone will calmly and nicely tell them all about the wonders of Photoshop and Dreamweaver, and we will have even more badly made sites to exasperate us. I'm not asking you to get all gooey and kumbaya on us. That ain't you, and if you did try, your gift for explication and example would suffer. Just moderate the roughness. If you can't, you'll end up not being here, and that would be a great loss both for SP, for our forum denizens, and, I believe, for you. Keep up the superb instruction, keep rolling out the examples of how it's properly done, and understand that everyone doesn't know as much as you, nor do they always want to approach coding/design the same way you do. You're in the position I've been in, when the kids told me, "You need to stop yelling!" I used to retort, "I'm NOT yelling," and I wasn't -- in my view. In their view, I was. After a while, I had to learn to split the difference. I have moderated my volume and toned down on the "firmness" of my tone, and now when the occasional kid tells me to stop yelling at him, I can confidently say, "Dude, I'm not yelling at you. You just don't like what I'm saying." You know you're not "yelling" at the posters, and they just as certainly know you are "yelling." Split the difference and see what happens. And I'll tell you the Big Old Secret of teaching: if you ease down off the throttle and give them a chance to show you their stuff, they will teach YOU something. It's inevitable. And it's the coolest thing in the world.

  25. #50
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    Off Topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Max View Post
    When you "cork your bolts"
    I prefer loc-tite, grease 'em up to slide 'em in, then loc 'em down once good 'n tight..

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Max View Post
    Jason's like the crusty old b@stard Marine DI who slaps you upside your helmet and screams at you about your mama every time you do something wrong -- then he shows you how to do it right, and slaps you upside the head again so you'll remember.
    Break them down so you can build them up. It's the only method I've ever found that actually accomplished anything -- everything else being feel good nonsense with no actual logic, pride or effort behind it.

    ... and on that note; good night Chesty, wherever you are.


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