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  1. #1
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    Can I convince my boss to switch?

    I want to sugest switching from asp on IIS to php on Apache to my boss.

    I doubt it'll actually happen but I want to take a chance.

    The problem is that our TD could not be any more microsoft and will argue 'till the end.

    What are good places on the net where I can get actual facts that can help me discuss this issue?

    Thank you,
    Luis

  2. #2
    SitePoint Wizard Rick's Avatar
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    Depends what you mean - do you mean pros and cons of apache?

    Anyone who stays loyal to a brand or product because they 'think' its the best is an idiot in my opinion.

    For some companies Microsoft products running websites etc can be a very useful and powerful feature, for example exchange server combined with Outlook opens up alot of powerful communication features. Microsofts server products can allow office users to be very productive in sharing infomation etc, and in my experience with it IIS isn't a bad product, in some environments its very useful, just because I prefer open source products and use Apache as my webserver of choice doesn't mean I would never consider another webserver, that would be silly.

    But then again there are times when vast amounts of money can be saved by switching to open source etc software.

    If your boss is stickin microsoft for a very good reason then thats fair enough, but if he won't even consider another product because he prefers microsoft then he's and idiot!

    In response to your question: I don't think I know of anywhere where you could find an un-biased opinion about apache over MS IIS and I havn't used IIS nearly enough to give you one myself.

    There have been lots of interesting debates on these forums about ASP over PHP or the other way round (I have noticed quite a few whilst reading over old topics) so I'm sure there has been at least one about Linux V. NT Server or 2K server - if you can't find a good 'en start one. It would be nice to have a debate about a greedy giant verus a Penguin!

    Rick

    P.s. when I say 'un-biased' what I mean is that most people seem to argue for or against something, I rarely see someone who puts across the points (good and bad) of both. I do not mean to say that you are all Linux / MS devotees! and are completely biased

    OK I seem to have gotten my-self into a large hole now, I am just gonna stop digging and wait for a reply telling me off!
    Last edited by zoo; Oct 21, 2002 at 13:11.
    Rick

  3. #3
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    If you were to analyze the reasons why they want to keep MS you'd see that they are not being reasonable (I'm refering to our tech dept.) and they seem to be protecting their own interests.

    Our company was hit by the dot com fall as many others and saving money became and remains a top priority. They are not even considering this when they insist on using MS.

    We are also going through major changes in our internal systems and look and feel. If there's going to be a good time to switch, it'll be during the next few weeks.

    The ironic thing is 90% of our mother company's developpers are 100% unix.

    Let's see what their reaction is...

    I'll let you know.

    Thank you,
    Luis

  4. #4
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy
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    Show him the difference between a license for Windows 2000 Server and Linux... oh, wait... Linux is free! LOL

  5. #5
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Linux/Apache/PHP/mySQL isn't really all that better than Windows/IIS/ASP/MSSQL. A change would be pretty expensive, and there is probably no way you could justify that cost.

    I'm not saying that you are biased, but the fact that you seem to have decided that PHP/mySQL is a better solution even though you need to ask this question seems a little strange.

    With that said, the biggest problems you are facing in a debate would be that

    • Microsoft is a safe bet, and has credibility
    • Linux/Apache/PHP/mySQL doesn't have the same level of credibility
    • IIS and ASP integrates very nicely with other MS systems
    • They have already invested in a Microsoft solution
    • The cost of migrating and retraining is huge


    You will need to shoot down those points in a gentle manner, so that you don't compromise the authority of your boss.

    I suggest that you point out that there is money to make in the long term, that other very credible companies (including your mother company) use Unix systems with success. If you want to be certain, I suggest doing a real cost savings estimate with real figures and presenting it to the decision makers along with your proposal. The dollar talks louder than any other argument.
    Mattias Johansson
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  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Karl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M. Johansson
    Linux/Apache/PHP/mySQL doesn't have the same level of credibility
    Now there is a highly contentious point that you could debate all day, I would put the levels of credability the same, although you do only have to look at the number of medium to large organisations changing core services to Linux to see that it is gaining even more credability - for example, I believe the UK Police force is nearing completion of a large scale system utilising Linux.
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  7. #7
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Karl

    Now there is a highly contentious point that you could debate all day, I would put the levels of credability the same, although you do only have to look at the number of medium to large organisations changing core services to Linux to see that it is gaining even more credability - for example, I believe the UK Police force is nearing completion of a large scale system utilising Linux.
    And Yahoo uses mySQL. We all know. MS still has a higher crediblity in the corporate world due to the fact that everyone, and I mean everyone, knows who they are.
    Mattias Johansson
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  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard Rick's Avatar
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    I sort of agree with what M. Johansson is saying...

    A switch as hudge as that would cost - ALOT!

    You would have to retrain IT staff, Re-configure even replace equipment, retrain those who have to interact with the system.

    Of course then theres the fact that while your IT people know Windows very well, they may not know anything about Linux - slightly emarassing when an entire IT dept has to re-train.

    Also the Microsoft brand has a good reputation and more importanly Microsoft support isn't exactly difficult to come by, there are massive resources available to those who need support with Microsofts products, both from microsoft and from other sources.

    Although, some governments have passed laws insisiting all its departments / services use Open Source software, for example Germany (I think - not 100% though!) and some major airlines recently replaced all of the microsoft driven equipment they used with Linux driven systems, at hudge cost but they claimed the reliability they now recieve was worth it and the Microsoft Licenses they were paying were driving them bankrupt!

    Open Source must be a big worry for Microsoft - thats for sure. They have annouced they will take legal action against anyone who releases a way to get Linux installed on XBox over the Win 2K based system it uses, they have strongly criticised governments who isnist on thier departments using Open Source systems and have formed an anti-open source organisation with several other big players in the IT scene (Intel for example), the aim of which is to:
    abolish the current Bias towards Open Source software
    I wonder why companies and governments alike are becomming more and more biassed!

    Even if a switch is impossible, you should be able to get your IT guys to at least admit Open Source Solutions has benefits, possibly over the MS driven system the currently use!

    Rick

    P.s. Anyone in IT not knowing what Linux is should be fired, quick!

    P.P.s. The UK Police force is a little strange in that respect! Each force (each county has its own) uses a slightly different system for which they are in control of. For example lancashire police uses Windows NT servers for most systems, MS Exchange server combined with Outlook for all email and internal electronic communication solutions, but uses a Unix system and Unix Mainframe servers for the massive database systems they use, each PC has an application on its desktop to allow users to access this database via Unix.

    Its a bit of a mix, MS SQL here, Unix here, Exchange server over there, but I can tell you one thing, there ain't any plans to move to a complete Linux driven solution! Even if Linux is being adopted for some systems, MS based development is in evidence, several million £ being spent on new win 2k workstations, thier corprate intranet is still under development using... ASP
    Last edited by zoo; Oct 22, 2002 at 10:50.
    Rick

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Karl's Avatar
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    Can't remember the exact details of the ne wpolice system, I just briefly scanned it on TheRegister, from what I remember it was a desktop roll-out with about 60,000 machines
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  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard Rick's Avatar
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    ne idea which force(s) will be invloved?

    police IT is pretty mixed up, as far as I can remeber the only national database / national run system was the holmes national database of serious crimes, that had its own server equipment, specially developed OS, special software etc

    Rick
    Rick

  11. #11
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    What you could do as an interim is have PHP on IIS.

    I presume you are talking about running Linux instead of Windows 2000, rather than simply Apache on Win2k?

  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Karl's Avatar
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    My mistake, the police system is a pilot at the moment, with the potential of 60,000 desktops:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27692.html

    Right, back on track now
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  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard Rick's Avatar
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    Ah I see....

    I hope they do move to Linux, I reckon while windows can do alot for the novice home PC market (which I don't think Linux is ready for), Linux and other Open Source systems have alot to offer to large organisations such as national police etc. The cost savings are emmense, money that can then be put to better use, for example community support officers etc.

    Lancs Police have just moved over to a 100mpbs Microwave network to link thier sites as opposed to leased lines from BT. This is a tenfold increase in bandwidth for them and is also saving several hundreds of thousands a year.

    Rick
    Rick

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard big_al's Avatar
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    Hi,

    lgomez I really have to go with your I.T. department.

    Now I do not have anything against open source, including *nix. I run a FreeBSD server.

    BUT...

    I have recently completed 2 MCP's (on my way to MCSE) and must say that it has really opened my eyes on how good MS makes it for system admins.

    ZAW (Zero Administartion for Windows) has numerous components that make life so easy. Group Policies and IntelliMirror to name just two that make it very easy for system admins to manage large networks. Especialy if you have people moving from system to system, off-site reps, hardware failures etc.

    The grouping of network resources in Active Directory makes network managment very easy.

    I would say 80%+ of people that are against any Microsoft platforms, have not used them in an enterprise environment. A trained monkey can install a "stock standard" installation of Windows 2000 and set up IIs... Doesn't mean it's done right, nore does it mean that they are using it to it's full potential.

    I am in no way implying that *nix does not do a great job of managing networks, but I have not seen any *nix implementation that can make administering a large network that easy.

    Sure Microsoft software is quite expensive, but if you run down the time saved on a yearly basis times the hourly rate the system admins are on, you start seeing that costs start leveling out.

    Microsoft also gets plenty of attention when a bug does get found, just because of how big the company is, doesn't mean that *nix do not get their share of exploits.
    There's a worm similar to CodeRed going around exploiting Apache, how many people heard about this in the general media? (TV News, newspaper etc)

    Just my two cents

    Karl, not sure what the police use in the UK, I know that many government organizations still use novell down under
    .NET Code Monkey

  15. #15
    SitePoint Wizard Rick's Avatar
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    I agree that MS offers some very powerful features for managing large networks, but this isn't always needed. I have worked with a Microsoft network spanning pretty much the whole of lancashire in the UK, with several thousand machines, and several hundred servers, and I agree that some of the management features are excellent, and the way other systems (such as the UNIX mainframes and database systems they used) were intergrated excellently - but I put this down to the wide range of skills that the dept has.

    Microsoft isn't very good at offering network wide management intergration for other systems. The network had various SMS servers and used many Microsofts management features, but these didn't include a way to manage other network wide facilities very well, for example anti-virus and printer drivers.

    Open source has alot to offer and the cost savings can be hudge, just like Microsoft's products, when used properly by someone who knows how to get them working to thier full potential they can be very very powerful systems

    I'm not anti-microsoft and when people ask for my comments or recommendations on systems I base my suggestion on what I think would best suit there needs rather than on a bias towards any particular system. I think anyone who calls them self an effective manager needs to use a system that meets thier needs best, not the system with the nicest graphics or biggest brand.

    Rick
    Rick


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