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  1. #1
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    Question help me i am very beginner

    hello i have basic knowledge of HTML, Photoshop, and Adobe Illustrator.

    I want to design websites, don't have much a knowledge about that. As far as i know, we need to design websites in PSD,(photoshop) first, and then the coding is done. kindly let me know if i am right or wrong. also tell the whole process and do recommend me some books which can help me in designing websites in photoshop and let me know separate list of books for coding.

    one more thing i would like to ask you all is that since websites are designed in photoshop, so i think their text will also be a image.. then how will the users be able to use that text when site is functional, means how will the users be able to copy the text in case they need to?

    i have many queries like that, someone who can help me out, please solve them, i shall be very thankful to you.


    Regards
    Himanshu

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    Hi Himanshu and welcome to SitePoint.

    Before sitting down with Photoshop and working out what looks pretty, decide what is to go on the page. Pictures, text, articles and layout.
    Pen and paper sketches of the layout AFTER you know what needs to go on the page, then move over to photoshop and make it look pretty if you have too.

    I would recommend you look through the SitePoint bookshop: http://products.sitepoint.com/ and learn the basics of site construction.
    Its easier than it looks and post questions if you need help!
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    i did not get the answer what exactly i was trying to ask, i wanted to ask you where to start, i know one need to plan thing on paper before going on photoshop, but what after that? the books here on sitepoint are not sufficient and are not what i am looking for, please suggest some more examples of good books.

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    Robert Wellock silver trophybronze trophy xhtmlcoder's Avatar
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    A functional webpage is not typically an image and doesn't require any images you cannot just create a layout in a graphics program and it magically become a webpage.

    Regarding the main text that is plain text created with markup not an image. To position items on a page you use CSS again, that is not an image.

    To begin with you should start with content and markup then apply CSS and perhaps add some decorative images later to enhance presentation.

    You are probably thinking of Photoshop template slicing and converting similar to what is mentioned in the free SPF Book: Thinking Web: Voices of the Community - Chapter 05 - Successful PSD to HTML Freelancing.

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    I don't know why you think that you need to design the site in Photoshop first.

    If you are familiar with Photshop (as you are), it might be a good way of creating an initial design - something for you to show your colleagues and base a discussion on. But you would never use Photoshop (or any other image editor) to actually create the site. You already know the reason for that: Photoshop will store the pages as images not text. That's not what you want.

    Personally, I would start by doing a rough layout on paper (as SpikeZ suggested). Then focus on creating a style sheet to match the layout - you will need to learn CSS to do thta. After that, write some text in an HTML editor and apply the styles to it.

    That will get you started. With luck, you'll learn the rest as you go along.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by himanshu432 View Post
    the books here on sitepoint are not sufficient and are not what i am looking for
    Why do you say that? There are books that teach you all the principles of web design from the foundations upwards.

    Photoshop is not a web design tool. Photoshop is for making pictures, and a website is not a picture. It is, at its simplest, text that is "marked up" with tags that tell a browser how to display it. So, normal text is wrapped in <p>Text here</p> tags to indicate that it should be displayed as a paragraph. Headings are marked up as <h1>Heading Text</h1> etc. so that the browser will display it as a heading.

    Then, if you want to style your page nicely with colors, columns etc, you write some style rules with CSS, another kind of coding language. And if you want fancy things to happen on your page like popup boxes, you use a programming language like JavaScript to write instructions for the browser.

    You may also want to have some images for your web page, and to prepare and optimize them for the web you can use a program like Photoshop. But otther than that, Photoshop has nothing to do with web design.
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    I think this is the best tip you can use. Photoshop is just for editing images. It can help you to come up with swanky graphics for websites, but you must be competent in coding HTML, CSS and Javascript for starters.

    With these skills, then you can chop up your PSD files and hand code them to website templates. You mentioned your web design skills are elementary, well the best starting point for you would be http://www.w3schools.com/.

    Its not a book, but you will find out how to work with HTML, CSS and Javascript in no time at all. From this, you can Google how to make web templates using Photoshop to complete the whole tutorial.

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    As i have gone through the post it's usual that it's good choice to use Photoshop or illustrator. But as much as text concern you should image for text if they are not used as logo and background. Books are not that much effective for me as i have read many but i like to learn through Video tutorial. Youtube is the best source for this or you can find out some tutorial on torrnetz by typing web designing tutorials.

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    First thing is you have to make the layout in photoshop. So learn photoshop. Look at other cool websites. Feel the design. You will learn in time.
    Learn html5 and css3. Yes. Learn html5 and css3. It's good for you future.
    When you have learn everything above, you're done
    There are so many good ebooks on sitepoint.
    http://products.sitepoint.com/
    Lynda.com is a good place, too.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by robie View Post
    First thing is you have to make the layout in photoshop.
    No. As ralph.m has already explained, Photoshop is for making pictures and a web site is not a picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by robie View Post
    Learn html5 and css3. Yes. Learn html5 and css3. It's good for you future.
    Whether it's good for your future remains to be seen, but it's not a good place to start right now. HTML5 and CSS3 are still in draft and the specifications could change several times before they're finalised. They're not fully supported by any modern browser, and not at all by older browsers. Stick with HTML4 or XHTML, which are established standards.

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    I have to agree with TechnoBear, HTML5 and CSS3 are works in progress. New browsers do support HTML5, but not all of its features. The same goes for CSS3. And in my opinion, if our friend, himanshu432, starts off with HTML4, the next standard of markup will not be that hard to work with. In fact chopping PSD files in HTML5 will be a piece of cake from what I figure. Most of the tags are easy to understand, and not much time will be spent.

    Quick question, is Gimp comparable to Photoshop? Ability-wise, that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ten Writer View Post
    Quick question, is Gimp comparable to Photoshop? Ability-wise, that is.
    I've never used Photoshop, so I can't answer that. You could try asking in the Graphics forum, but I suspect everyone will tell you that their favourite (whichever it might be) is the best, and you won't be any further forward.

    I use GIMP and it does everything I need it to - which doesn't include web page layouts.

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    Thanks mate.

    I have used Gimp to create several Wordpress templates and they are decent templates, from what I figure. Actually sold two of them last year. Its more of a hobby. But lately I was thinking of making some cash from it, that's why I wanted to know the best software. From the Gimp page they claim it can do what Photoshop does, minus the price tag

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by himanshu432 View Post
    As far as i know, we need to design websites in PSD,(photoshop) first, and then the coding is done. kindly let me know if i am right or wrong.
    Excuse me as I queue the broken record

    IMHO the entire "draw some goof-assed picture in photoshop first" approach to web design is putting the cart before the horse, and the reason for the increase in the number of sites that are completely USELESS to me personally as a user. They fit entirely with the "accessibility, what's that" attitude and result in broken inflexible layouts filled with little more than "but I can do it in photoshop" idiocy. It's a paint program... leave it at that, because a LOT of what you can do in photoshop far exceeds the practical limit of what belongs on a website, often is impractical to implement as code, and on the whole pretends the page in question is a urinal at a train station.

    I'm a firm believer in the content first approach since -- and this was a bitter pill for me to swallow some eight or nine years ago -- people visit websites for the content -- NOT the goofy layout and pretty graphics you hang AROUND the content; in fact much of the pretty pictures people are slapping onto sites these days make them painful to watch load, get in the way of actually getting to anything meaningful, and turn the websites they're slapped on into "bounce central"... which is to say most visitors are unlikely to let the page even finish loading, much less visit sub-pages. Ultimately such sites boil down to being "very pretty" -- but who cares how pretty it is if nobody wants to use it!

    Markup your content (or a reasonable facsimile) semantically, create the layouts (preferably fluid/semi-fluid with media targets) in CSS, THEN boot up the goofy paint program to make the graphics that will fit on it... and keep the graphics to a minimum since, well.... look at the big successes of the internet... Google, Amazon, E-Bay, FaceBook, Wikipedia -- these are NOT a graphical tour-de-force of websites and it's why you only ever see the die-hard art f.... art f.... art folk websites on crappy little unimportant small business pages sold to suits who didn't know any better, corporate websites where their Internet presence is effectively an afterthought, or oddball personal pages of artists sitting around stroking their... ego.

    ... and even when the big successes do bring in the artsy types to redo it, it turns into a usability nightmare -- see Google over the past year with the idiotic dark grey on black menu (which with the rest of the page white is effectively illegible), switch to fixed metric sizes, and over the top javascript for nothing that's slowly making even their core functionality of search less useful than it was a decade ago. You'd think they were forgetting what let them rise to the top of search in the first place.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by himanshu432 View Post
    hello i have basic knowledge of HTML, Photoshop, and Adobe Illustrator.
    Hello to you too

    Quote Originally Posted by himanshu432 View Post
    I want to design websites, don't have much a knowledge about that. As far as i know, we need to design websites in PSD,(photoshop) first, and then the coding is done.
    That's not true. Even people that are visual and would design before coding need to do something first: get the content and plan.
    The system you follow to create a website depends on various factors and that includes how you are but also the type and size of the site and your goals and how many visitors you want that site to have.

    Good planning, good organization of the content and a good marketing strategy will make the site rise and these points are decided even before thinking about designing.

    A small fraction of that marketing strategy is SEO and because your content will be affect your marketing strategy, very often sites are coded before even they're design.

    Also, before you design (and while you're at it) there's another aspect to take into consideration: User Experience. And that includes usability of the site and accessibility

    For all of these reasons, it is rare to see that a extremely successful site is first design and then coded.

    Quote Originally Posted by himanshu432 View Post
    kindly let me know if i am right or wrong.
    I think I just did
    Quote Originally Posted by himanshu432 View Post
    also tell the whole process and do recommend me some books which can help me in designing websites in photoshop and let me know separate list of books for coding.
    SP books do cover almost all the basics but I made add books specifically planned for usability. "Don't make me think" is a classic that is still valid even today.

    Quote Originally Posted by himanshu432 View Post
    one more thing i would like to ask you all is that since websites are designed in photoshop, so i think their text will also be a image.. then how will the users be able to use that text when site is functional, means how will the users be able to copy the text in case they need to?
    The text may be an image in photoshop. You can use Photoshop to do your mockup but remember that a mockup is just a draft, nothing else. When you code your page, you don't use Photohop, you use HTML, CSS, Javascript and, if it is a dynamic site, PHP or ASP or even Perl or Python, or a mix of all of them.

    In your site, text is text, it is not an image

    Quote Originally Posted by himanshu432 View Post
    i have many queries like that, someone who can help me out, please solve them, i shall be very thankful to you.


    Regards
    Himanshu
    Thanks. I'm thankfull to myself too
    Last edited by molona; Feb 14, 2012 at 08:51. Reason: typos, typos and more typos

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    Hello, if you are not yet familiar to wordpress, maybe your should try it sometime. Wordpress is very reliable interms of designing a website and they also provide lots of features to make it easier for the user's part.

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    None of the web designers I personally know off line even own a copy of PhotoShop.
    They all write html and css, as that's what web sites are built out of.

    PhotoShop - the clue is in the name - Photoshop - it's for editing photos and creating images.
    Not websites.

    (Actually I've come across a couple of web sites where some fool used photoshop to build a web site - each page was, quite literally, just an image. Linking to other pages was thus a bit of a problem, and the sites were linear (A>B>C>D>E) one route through.)

    Note the post counts for those who say no photoshop is not for building web sites, and for those who say that's where you start. Do you want to follow the advice of people with experience, or beginners?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr John View Post
    None of the web designers I personally know off line even own a copy of PhotoShop.
    They all write html and css, as that's what web sites are built out of.
    It is handy for preparing images for the web, though, as most websites have images of some kind—best it for decoration, a logo, a favicon or whatever. What do you use to create/prepare images? I know there are free programs like Gimp.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    It is handy for preparing images for the web, though, as most websites have images of some kind—best it for decoration, a logo, a favicon or whatever. What do you use to create/prepare images? I know there are free programs like Gimp.
    Personally, I use Paint.Net. Both that and Photoshop are useful for working with the images that you want to show on your site, but that's quite different from trying to design the actual site with those tools.

    Mike

  20. #20
    SitePoint Zealot behati's Avatar
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    This thread is really getting into a developers vs designers discussion isn't it?

    No but, in all seriousness, to answer the initial question of the original poster - a website is not an image created in Photoshop (as others have said), all you need to create a website is a text editor like Notepad (yes notepad!) in which you write code in a language called HTML, the output can then be viewed in a webbrowser! You can style the html output using the mentioned CSS (Cascading style sheets).

    Basics done, in terms of using Photoshop, often you will find that designers and graphic artists will create an entire layout or different parts of it, as layered images. These images are as you stated not functional. It is then the developers job to cut this layout into bits and pieces, and build and place them in a webpage using yet again HTML and CSS.

    As for "How to start when creating a website???" - there is no correct answer to that question, since it depends on many factors and on your own preferences. However, I like to look at an entire development project a bit like building a house/building. First the architect will do some research and form a general idea, which he/she will then sketch and start planning the building process depending on exactly what the customer needs/wants and using experience to optimize everything. Then the architect might create a model of the final design (this would be your photoshop layout image) and then deliver the package (models, plans, sketches) to the builders and contractors who will then start building!

    Sorry for the metaphors, just trying to help out - As for the books part, there are hundreds of good books on getting started with HTML and CSS (some here at sitepoint indeed) - some huge and very thorough, others thinner and more like quickguides - just do some research and get started!

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    SitePoint Enthusiast Sanctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60
    IMHO the entire "draw some goof-assed picture in photoshop first" approach to web design is putting the cart before the horse...
    Yep, he is right. There are many superb developers who do not use Photoshop. You cannot pump out a website through an image editor. If there ever comes a time that do feel you need an one, it does not have to be specifically psd. Your content has to be light when you do use that method. Why? All the bytes add up to how long it takes your webpage to load. Many people have broadband these days. Not everyone. If you are planning to build a media rich site in the future, optimize it for those with slow broadband. When it is meant for a wider audience, then you need to make sure individuals with a dial-up connection can still access your site. That does not really matter for you to know just yet however. There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to web development as you will soon find out. For now focus on the basics. Start with HTML. After that you should begin using CSS. Javascript is not required, but is recommended. Use an editor like Notepad++ with syntax highlighting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanctus View Post
    Many people have broadband these days. Not everyone. If you are planning to build a media rich site in the future, optimize it for those with slow broadband. When it is meant for a wider audience, then you need to make sure individuals with a dial-up connection can still access your site.
    YES, he said DIAL UP!!!

    You know how many places in America there are where speeds faster than 33.6K dialup are a dream? Sure, I can get 22mbps broadband where I am in east BF New Hamsphire (though the 768kbps upstream that goes with it sucks), if I moved just forty miles north the question becomes "Broadband, what's that?" -- Northern New Hampshire, Western Main, entire swaths of the Dakotas.... sure they're sparsely populated, but not THAT sparsely populated...

    But also think about phone plans -- people on metered connection (Say hi to our friends in Australia and Canada) where after a certain amount of bandwidth the pipe gets choked and it turns into pay as you go... All the people in places like North Africa who ONLY access the web via phones on pay as you go... Half the people I talk to via IM, including members of this site are stuck in at least one of those scenarios.

    It's why I still maintain a 70/16 to 140/24 limit on my templates. What that means is ideally a page template WITH content text but not counting content images or videos (but counting 'presentational only embeds') should ideally be around 70k in 16 separate files, and the maximum I would allow for an entire page template (HTML+CSS+IMAGES+SCRIPTS, again not counting content images/vids) is 140k. If you cannot bring the page in under those numbers, you're probably wasting EVERYONE's time, and making the page cost more to host, be harder to maintain, and on the whole writing a giant steaming pile of trash.

    Of course, you'll ALWAYS have the people who will chime in with "Oh people on dialup are only a small percentage of the population", and "oh but people in areas with metered plans are only a small percentage" or "oh people accessing the internet on phones is only a small percentage"... "The Percenters", same people who go "Oh our page doesn't work in Opera? well that's only 3% of Internet users" (yeah, 3% of 2.2 billion), "Oh our page doesn't work with scripting off, who does that?" (the couple million or so people who've downloaded the noscript plugin for FF, use Opera's inbuilt per-site blacklisting/whitelisting, the various copies of noscript released for other browsers?)

    "The Percenters" are great because they'll nickle-and-dime their sites justifying their wasteful bloated useless crap until there's no "target audience" left -- which of course is the other term people use to justify being lazy, stupid or ignorant -- well, "That's not our target audience" -- RIGHT.

    Part of why I keep linking to "Lame excuses for not being a web professional" because it's right on the money in showing how much of this just boils down to the incompetent trying to cover their tracks or make excuses for their fat, bloated, impossible to maintain and requires two or three times as much hosting as it should nonsense.

    As said in that article:
    Using the statistics defense is letting your (bad) design and/or technology choices determine who your target audience is.
    Repeat the mantra -- more PRESENTATIONAL (border, background, hover effect) images than content BAD, more scripting than markup BAD, javascript frameworks BAD... etc, etc, etc...

    Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how pretty it is, how many animated effects it has or how much the graphics "grab you" -- if it gets in the way of the site loading quickly, letting as many users get at the content as possible and presenting that content in an easy to use accessible manner -- WHAT GOOD IS IT?!? Which is the problem with 90%+ (excuse the pulling a percent out of my tuchas) of the garbage "pretty pictures" slapped together by Photoshop jockeys who don't know the first thing about designing for the Internet (which is to say almost all of them), and the developers who slice up those goofy pictures into garbage fixed width (or worse fixed height) layouts with more scripting than you can shake someone with Parkinsons at!

    ... and trust me, I can shake at a awful lot of things these days

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    SitePoint Enthusiast Sanctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60
    Repeat the mantra -- more PRESENTATIONAL (border, background, hover effect) images than content BAD, more scripting than markup BAD, javascript frameworks BAD... etc, etc, etc...

    Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how pretty it is, how many animated effects it has or how much the graphics "grab you" -- if it gets in the way of the site loading quickly, letting as many users get at the content as possible and presenting that content in an easy to use accessible manner -- WHAT GOOD IS IT?!? Which is the problem with 90%+ (excuse the pulling a percent out of my tuchas) of the garbage "pretty pictures" slapped together by Photoshop jockeys who don't know the first thing about designing for the Internet (which is to say almost all of them), and the developers who slice up those goofy pictures into garbage fixed width (or worse fixed height) layouts with more scripting than you can shake someone with Parkinsons at!

    ... and trust me, I can shake at a awful lot of things these days
    That was funny when I read that part. Consider what they do as glitter. It does not add anything of significance for the intended audience. You can create a pretty page without adding a lot of bloat. If you are selling a product, putting five pictures of the item is one thing. Adding six layers of craptastic borders and etcetera is what an idiot does when they are trying to sell something to their visitors. You are targeting an audience even when you are not selling products or services. People look at your site for a few seconds then move elsewhere. "That is why you need glitter?" Relevant lightweight glitter then. Not 2-10mb of useless pictures. Too long to load? They will be back on Google search finding somewhere else to be. I personally despise Javascript thanks in part to script kiddies regular misuse of it. The little *******s need to get off the damn computer more. That is enough doom and gloom for the day. lol ^_^

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    I tend to disagree with skipping the static mock-up stage. Designers design – pure and simple. They need to be able to use tools they know to express their ideas so the technical people can bring them to life.

    As for JS frameworks the fact of the matter is JavaScript sucks. For most medium to large sites one would need to create their own normalization functions anyway. Why not allow a library to take care of it for you. A library that is well known, maintained and tried. It just doesn't make any sense not to.

    I don't think it does any good to bash designers for using the tools they know. Designers aren't technical. It is up to the technical people guide them within the context of what they know to express their ideas within the limitations of technology. Not bash them for not learning HTML and CSS if they will not be responsible for the implementation.
    The only code I hate more than my own is everyone else's.

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    He or she is someone who is starting out. Photoshop does not teach someone how to build a website. It is a graphics editing program. Again, the cart is being put before the horse. This individual wants to learn the very basics of web development whom already knows how to mess around with psd. Why are some sitepoint members telling him to create a mockup before he knows how to do any coding? I know people here might mean well by their suggestions, but that is not helping. This person should learn how to build a website in raw code first. There is nothing wrong with Javascript when it used correctly. Nobody said Javascript sucks. It can be overused as with images and anything else.


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