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  1. #76
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    But did ya check the figures? Sensationalism sells...

    Originally posted by neil100
    Having seen this survey http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2345355.stm I am coming around to Hellbents way of thinking, at least on the point that society enables the terminally stupid to survive when perhaps the human race would be better off if they didn't.

    The survey of 1,063 people
    Hardly a huge sample. I'd be very interested in how they ensured equal distribution of Religion, Language, Region, Socio-economic status, education levels etc etc.

    It's a crock, frankly.

    FACT1:

    89.3% of Statistics are made up on the spot...

    FACT2:

    100% are taylored to suit the researchers angle....
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  2. #77
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    Okay the sample is small and no doubt the researches who conducted the survey were going for a certain angle, however I am really struggling to find a reason as to why someone would not know who the leader of their own country is or for that matter Saddam Hussain given how much media coverage he has had over the last few months. I would also be less likely to agree with the conclusion of the survey, that Britain is indeed "Dumbing Down" if it was not already so obvious just by taking a look at the news, science programs, the amount of soaps, reality TV in fact TV in general or films, music, ridiculously low exam standards, the list goes on...

  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    No-one ever "survived" on TV alone...

    Originally posted by neil100
    however I am really struggling to find a reason as to why someone would not know who the leader of their own country is or for that matter Saddam Hussain given how much media coverage he has had over the last few months.
    Perhaps they're not media victims??

    I personally don't think I've watched any TV for at least a month, maybe 2 (although I did watch a dvd last night).

    I do read the odd paper, but not the 3 a day I used to (to cover various angles). I get much of my info from the internet, but have to ask myself, how relevent is it really?

    Useful for having the odd debate, but other than that the time spent absorbing this information is really a waste of what could otherwise be productive time in my life.

    Of course that argument is totally void when weighed against the "Phil Mitchell" stats in the article, but still food for thought....

    A lack of knowledge of current or world affairs could easily indicate a simple lack of interest, and given then level of tripe coming from all media sources at the moment, that is hardly surprising.

    It's entirely possible that these are healthly, strong, intelligent, rational people who just happen to use media as an enterainment rather than information channel.......


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  4. #79
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Re: No-one ever "survived" on TV alone...

    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    It's entirely possible that these are healthly, strong, intelligent, rational people who just happen to use media as an enterainment rather than information channel.......
    Interesting. Now that you mention it, any person uninterested in politics and TV would score bad on those tests.
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  5. #80
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    I agree people may still be perfectly intelligent and simply be not interested in world affairs or politics, but to be honest knowing who the leader of your country is, hardly means you have to have an a interest in government or world affairs. I mean I find baseball and basketball the most boring games on the planet, but even I have heard of Michael Jordan and Babe Ruth, surely some time in the last five years these people must have turned the radio on and heard the name Tony Blair or even walked past a newspaper in a shop, given that the majority of these people can name "Phil Mitchell" they obviously watch TV yet for some reason don't know who the prime minister is.

    Anyway as I said earlier the results of the survey only confirm what is painfully obvious, Britain is dumbing down.

  6. #81
    SitePoint Wizard Bill Posters's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    ...Hardly a huge sample. I'd be very interested in how they ensured equal distribution of Religion, Language, Region, Socio-economic status, education levels etc etc.

    It's a crock, frankly.
    Given that you admittedly don't know the circumstances of the cross-section used as the basis for this survey you are assuming alot by calling its finding a crock.

    FACT1:

    89.3% of Statistics are made up on the spot...

    FACT2:

    100% are taylored to suit the researchers angle....
    Clearly your cynicism is blinkering your outlook on life and worse, it's causing you to prejudge the ethics of others.
    Not every question is leading. Not every survey has a point to make (read: axe to grind).
    Until you know otherwise, it's not reasonable* for you to assume that its findings are nonsence.
    (* being un'reason'able is uncharacterisitic of you, TOH.)

    Imho, (presuming as we can that we the survey was UK-based) I find the notion that *any* person does not know the name of their country's political leader totally inexcusable.

    TOH, I actually find it quite strange that you are attempting to argue that such a level ignorance (that's exactly what we are talking about here) is not only defendable, but reasonable too.

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  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Heh - cynicism hat is definately on at the mo. I have recently witnessed widescale (and reputable ) clinical psychology research being quite literally "made up", in spite of generous funding, and am working on a research website at the mo. The idea that a sample of 1000 (no matter how well selected) is capable of being a good benchmark for what, 60 million odd people, is almost laughable. To accept that sort of pseudo-science as fact without evidence of a really carefull sample gathering excercise is dangerous.

    I don't think the UK is dumbing down at all, I just think that it's easier with the various media we now all have access to to see the bigger picture.

    (and to distort it....)
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  8. #83
    SitePoint Wizard Bill Posters's Avatar
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    Aww, come on.

    You only have to be caught dateless *once* on a Saturday night and witness what passes for entertainment nowadays to know that this country's combined intellect is fast going down the pan.
    Saturday night primetime really is TV for vegetables.

    fwiw, UK (afaik) tv ratings are extrapolated from a survey base of only 1500 viewers, so the low figure is not neccessarily the issue.
    Even as 'typically' low as it is, the figure used for this survey is capable of yielding reasonably usable results as long as the cross-section is appropriate to those it is making claims about.

    Personally I blame all those "don't make me think" merchants.
    Now there's a perfect example of a section of society that *should* be sterilised en masse.

    (See how I brought the thread back on track? smoooooth)
    New Plastic Arts: Visual Communication | DesignateOnline

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  9. #84
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by neil100
    Having seen this survey http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2345355.stm I am coming around to Hellbents way of thinking, at least on the point that society enables the terminally stupid to survive when perhaps the human race would be better off if they didn't.
    It is rare that I hear these words. I appluad you for not calling me a Nazi at the very least
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  10. #85
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by johnn
    Somehow, when I read hellbent words remind me about the Nazis sent people with mental disabilities to gas chambers. (not just the Jews)
    Nazis did this? I dont believe that, They look so cuddly in their polished boots and pressed uniforms. You must be mistaken...
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  11. #86
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Wink yeah, yer no nazi - I don't think you'd have the stomach for it

    but you do kill mme

    "to promote the general ... non-burdensomeness"??

    "fanatical egalitarianism"

    "all men are created equal" is, imho, the most beautiful phrase in the English language, the high point of American civilization
    There is nothing you can say that could possibly make [me] believe that someone who is unable to provide for themselves is not a burden on their tribe.
    true by definition and utterly meaningless - a burden in some sense, but surely not necessarily on balance - and as you note, you don't need to be physically disabled to be a non-contributor
    The overseer hit her in the head with a lead weight
    relative of yours??
    I have REPEATEDLY stated that any creature that is a burden on its society should not be tolerated. Stop "enabling" these weaklings and they will either die off or step up to the plate and provide for themselves.
    and thereby repeatedly made a fool of yourself - I say exterminate those who can't spell correctly
    Anyone who does not provide for him or herself after childhood has no right to existence.
    pompous crap - I'm thinking that's what yer whole argument here is about - "throw the bums off welfare" - there's schmucks all over town peddling this nonsense - no need to back it up with a lot of highfalutin pseudo-science
    Somehow, when I read hellbent words remind me about the Nazis sent people with mental disabilities to gas chambers. (not just the Jews)
    yer not alone in that assessment

    on dumbing down, the Posterman's got it right - people follow entertainment because there's $$ to be made selling it (with a fat taxpayer subsidy - watch out, HB ) - while individuals surely benefit from publicly-funded education, the large amount of resources expended can really only be justified by measuring the benefit to society as a whole - a weak lobby in the inner cicles of gov't nowadays - it all comes down, as is so often the case, to old Henry George's Tragedy of the Commons
    The idea that a sample of 1000 (no matter how well selected) is capable of being a good benchmark for what, 60 million odd people, is almost laughable.
    1063 is a decent sized survey - results within 5% or so if respondents were selected fairly randomly
    Myths abound about determining sample size. One myth is that a fraction of the population must be specified for the sample. Not true. Another myth is the size of the population from which a sample is drawn has an impact on how well the sample will describe the population. If all else is equal, a sample of 150 will describe a population of 15,000 or 15 million with the same degree of accuracy. A third myth is national surveys should include about 1,500 people while state or local surveys should include about 500. This also is not true. - Survey Research and Measurement Error
    Last edited by mmi; Oct 31, 2002 at 05:07.

  12. #87
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    mmy apologies mmr.spelling

    I’m surprised that the only recourse you have left after I have thoroughly thrashed your arguments mmi is to attack typos and racial lineage. This from a mman who’s mmajor gimmick is mmolesting the mm key on his keyboard. Pfft, I guess that’s what passes for debate in Rhode Island. If you cannot defeat what they say attack how they said it.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  13. #88
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    I have thoroughly thrashed your arguments
    is that was passes for a victory in Texass? - you'll note that I didn't give you an opportunity to shoot down any crippled retardos that happened to have clean genes - I'm confident there are a large number of examples on "our' side, but I'm not going to look into it - you've made it clear that your views are not based on reason, but rather on a knee-jerk "I ain't payin' no taxes to support no bums" attitude - this is a complex issue - no one wants public support programs to waste money, especially those of us who see the merit in them - perhaps you could stop being an idiot and make a contribution to the tribe by coming up with ideas to make the system work more effectively - you seem to have the intelligence required as well as a passion for fixing the problems that exist currently


  14. #89
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mmi
    perhaps you could stop being an idiot and make a contribution to the tribe by coming up with ideas to make the system work more effectively
    I would say this qualifies as a personal attack, However no worries. I have seen many with little facts resort to either comedy or insults when it suits them.

    Originally posted by mmi
    you seem to have the intelligence required as well as a passion for fixing the problems that exist currently
    An intelligent Idiot? Sort of an odd combination. A passion for fixing problems that exist? Yes, however me and you (and thos like you) disagree on what the problems are.

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by mmi
    knee-jerk "I ain't payin' no taxes to support no bums" attitude

    Your right what kind of incosiderate ******* would not want to work all day only to have his money go to someone who does not work? What was I thinking. I only hope the ignorant and the lazy can find it in their hearts to forgive my lack of desire to support them in their uselessness.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  15. #90
    Yugo full of anvils bronze trophy hillsy's Avatar
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    that's me!
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  16. #91
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    This thread needs to get back on track. First and only warning.
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  17. #92
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Your right what kind of incosiderate ******* would not want to work all day only to have his money go to someone who does not work? What was I thinking. I only hope the ignorant and the lazy can find it in their hearts to forgive my lack of desire to support them in their uselessness.
    strawman nonsense - how unusual

    I said you were being an idiot, not that you necessarily are one - raises the question of why you make these outrageous statements - perhaps the people who say yer simply trying to be provocative are correct

    you guys make me laugh with your recent spate of warnings - I think SitePoint is a very strong forum on web development issues and God knows it's gotta be difficult to have a section that allows for discussion of volatile political issues - but it seems to me the staff needs to be a lot more polite to members in this area - as has been said many times, if you don't like heated political and religious discussions, don't read these threads - I'd like to see the level of discussion raised but I think that's just another forlorn hope - I don't think threats from hall monitors are gonna get it done

  18. #93
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    I'm lurking.

    It'd be nice if the thread stayed open long enough for me to get my two cents worth in.

  19. #94
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    I'm still wondering: In what way is modern society not a part of nature/evolution?
    And this: "...if nature were truly allowed to take its course." ???
    What is the true nature of nature?
    Obviously, according to HB, some outcomes of evolution aren't truly evolutionary

  20. #95
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mmi
    you guys make me laugh with your recent spate of warnings - I think SitePoint is a very strong forum on web development issues and God knows it's gotta be difficult to have a section that allows for discussion of volatile political issues - but it seems to me the staff needs to be a lot more polite to members in this area - as has been said many times, if you don't like heated political and religious discussions, don't read these threads - I'd like to see the level of discussion raised but I think that's just another forlorn hope - I don't think threats from hall monitors are gonna get it done
    Look, it's very simple - the Forums Guidelines says this:

    DON'T ATTACK EACH OTHER
    Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack.
    ... that's not unreasonable.
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Nov 1, 2002 at 05:55.
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  21. #96
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    peersonal attacks are not the issue

    I was referring to this
    First and only warning.
    I don't like the tone and I'd expect more from a staff member - I don't so much hold RKuhle responsible - I think it's an attitude that has become widespread in this section of the forum

    not to be dramatic about this, but I'm going to take a break from SitePoint - as I said above, I think you guys have an excellent resource and community here - I've enjoyed my participation and wish you all the best

  22. #97
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Re: peersonal attacks are not the issue

    Originally posted by mmi
    I was referring to thisI don't like the tone and I'd expect more from a staff member - I don't so much hold RKuhle responsible - I think it's an attitude that has become widespread in this section of the forum

    not to be dramatic about this, but I'm going to take a break from SitePoint - as I said above, I think you guys have an excellent resource and community here - I've enjoyed my participation and wish you all the best
    While I admit that Ryans post could have been a little more nice, so could yours. Do unto others as you would want others to do unto you.
    Mattias Johansson
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  23. #98
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    Originally posted by mmi
    you guys make me laugh with your recent spate of warnings - I think SitePoint is a very strong forum on web development issues and God knows it's gotta be difficult to have a section that allows for discussion of volatile political issues - but it seems to me the staff needs to be a lot more polite to members in this area - as has been said many times, if you don't like heated political and religious discussions, don't read these threads - I'd like to see the level of discussion raised but I think that's just another forlorn hope - I don't think threats from hall monitors are gonna get it done
    The rules and guidelines in this forum are very strict. I wasn't even referring to your "personal attacks", or whatever was going on, I was referring to the thread going off topic, which it was.

    I have no problem with political and religious discussions, otherwise I wouldn't even read these forums. I'm simply enforcing the basic rules and guidelines that have been placed on this particular forum.

    As a frequent poster of these particular forums, you know the guidelines and I'm fairly positive that you've seen them be enforced.

    akohl, please feel free to post your two cents. Just try to stay on topic.
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  24. #99
    Fine Tuned silver trophy KC's Avatar
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    The rules of these threads have not been followed in strict accordance as stated. I think its biased for advisors to make comments in a thread and then close it because of personal attacks especially if they are the one attacking. Calling someone a "pathetic waste of flesh" is just as bad as calling someone ignorant for their opinion. Everyone is guilty of it in one form or another - from advisors to SP enthusiasts.


    I would hate to see this thread closed based on personal attacks because its an interesting debate and one that warrants a discussion. Altough I don't completely agree with HB, I still believe he is entitled to his opinion, right or wrong. And if we can't continue this discussion as adults, then someone other than the advisors that made comments in this thread should see fit to close it if necessary.

    I'm looking forward to hearing other comments about "Natural Selection and evolution in Modern Society." So can we please continue on with this without attacking each other like elementary school children?

  25. #100
    SitePoint Wizard johnn's Avatar
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by johnn
    Somehow, when I read hellbent words remind me about the Nazis sent people with mental disabilities to gas chambers. (not just the Jews)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Nazis did this? I dont believe that, They look so cuddly in their polished boots and pressed uniforms. You must be mistaken...
    Oh yeah, you know of course...hmm, I wonder what costume did you wear for Haloween last night?


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