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  1. #26
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Cool "we'll head 'em off at the impasse" - keep payin', brother - until it REALLY hurts

    first, I would caution to be careful what you say about other people's "defective" "retard" children - I'm guessing they won't like it - but apparently that's not considered a "personal attack" in these environs
    Where that does not hold true is that the wounded can often recover as well as the diseased.
    this whole discussion is, as is so often the case in this section of the forum, dripping with irony - recent and future advances in genetic research/therapy will help to dramatically diminish this population you're so loathsome to "support" - I'll bet you're enthusiastic about increased funding for those programs as well - a real humanitarian

    I find your analysis of homelessness intriguing - it would help if you had the first idea what you're talking about - many homeless people are in strong family units (ever hear of Jim Carey? - a self-made multi-millionaire, I believe - could buy and sell yer butt many times over) seeking to overcome overfinancial problems frequently resulting from our horribly inadequate health care system and an economic model that places corporate profits far ahead of the welfare (like that word? - as in "promote the general ... - read the Constitution ) of our citizenry - of course, many would not die before creating innumerable expensive problems for society - I'd recommend piling the corpses of those who do succumb at your front door for burial
    if during her life she has made appropriate choices to insure her financial security in old age then she should be cared for because she is no burden
    ah, but she is a burden - I simply choose to help her through her old age in some level of dignity and happiness by being here so she isn't forced to live in an impersonal nursing home for several years - (I realize some famililies don't have a choice in this, so I figure we're lucky) - and yes, she has provided for herself - by paying into Social Security for 55 years as a secretary and bookkeeper while voting for elected officials that saw the great value in such a program - we're having a nice turkey, cornbread stuffing, mashed potato, butternut squash, cake and ice cream dinner this evening - if you're employed and paying into the program, I should go out and buy a nice bottle of wine so we can toast your contribution to the festivities

    I suppose yer right about one thing - quite a &@$+@() indeed
    Last edited by mmi; Oct 25, 2002 at 13:33.

  2. #27
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Re: "we'll head 'em off at the impasse" - keep payin', brother - until it REALLY hurts

    Originally posted by mmi
    first, I would caution to be careful what you say about other people's "defective" "retard" children - I'm guessing they won't like it - but apparently that's not considered a "personal attack" in these environsthis whole discussion is, as is so often the case in this section of the forum, dripping with irony - recent and future advances in genetic research/therapy will help to dramatically diminish this population you're so loathsome to "support" - I'll bet you're enthusiastic about increased funding for those programs as well - a real humanitarian

    I find your analysis of homelessness intriguing - it would help if you had the first idea what you're talking about - many homeless people are in strong family units (ever hear of Jim Carey? - a self-made multi-millionaire, I believe - could buy and sell yer butt many times over) seeking to overcome overfinancial problems frequently resulting from our horribly inadequate health care system and an economic model that places corporate profits far ahead of the welfare (like that word? - as in "promote the general ... - read the Constitution ) of our citizenry - of course, many would not die before creating innumerable expensive problems for society - I'd recommend piling the corpses of those who do succumb at your front door for burialah, but she is a burden - I simply choose to help her through her old age in some level of dignity and happiness by being here so she isn't forced to live in an impersonal nursing home for several years - (I realize some famililies don't have a choice in this, so I figure we're lucky) - and yes, she has provided for herself - by paying into Social Security for 55 years as a secretary and bookkeeper while voting for elected officials that saw the great value in such a program - we're having a nice turkey, cornbread stuffing, mashed potato, butternut squash, cake and ice cream dinner this evening - if you're employed and paying into the program, I should go out and buy a nice bottle of wine so we can toast your contribution to the festivities

    I suppose yer right about one thing - quite a &@$+@() indeed
    That's the great thing about this country mmi, You can see logic be presented with it and yet still choose to ignore it. Enjoy your turkey. Also fo the record URally stated that the children are perfect healthy. So once again in order to make a personal attack I have to have a target. And i would rather be a &@$+@() than a fool who pays for the mistakes of others.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  3. #28
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Lightbulb you might want to look for a third alternative

    a compassionate conservative, perhaps

    happy to see we can throw rocks and smile at the same time

    better get that bird in the oven

    Na zdorovia, HB!!

  4. #29
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Re: you might want to look for a third alternative

    Originally posted by mmi
    happy to see we can throw rocks and smile at the same time
    That is a benefit of being enlightened men.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  5. #30
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Hellbent, I’m afraid it’s you that has been brainwashed. Too much of our culture. Our culture is all about the “me”. What can “I” get. How can “I” benefit. That person is taking “my” tax dollars. That guy is not doing as much work as “me”. In many cultures it’s not about the “me”, but the “we”. What I have is yours and what you have is mine. These cultures take care of the old and even give special attention to the ones that need it. They do it, not because they are more enlightened or even kinder or more caring. An outsider may see it that way, but they don’t. If you were to ask them why they take care of all those around them, they would tell you, because it makes the whole tribe stronger. We take care of the old, because someday we will be old too. We take care of the neighbor’s kid not because we are more spiritual, but because someday my kid may need the help. We are stronger as a whole, than we are as individuals. This gives us a better chance at survival. Remember survival, the number one goal of all species.

    On a more personal note, I hope you never obtain a handicap or have a child that has one.
    Last edited by Golgotha; Oct 25, 2002 at 18:38.

  6. #31
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Golgotha
    Hellbent, I’m afraid it’s you that has been brainwashed. Too much of our culture. Our culture is all about the “me”. What can “I” get. How can “I” benefit. That person is taking “my” tax dollars. That guy is not doing as much work as “me”. In many cultures it’s not about the “me”, but the “we”. What I have is yours and what you have is mine. These cultures take care of the old and even give special attention to the ones that need it. They do it, not because they are more enlightened or even kinder or more caring. An outsider may see it that way, but they don’t. If you were to ask them why they take care of all those around them, they would tell you, because it makes the whole tribe stronger. We take care of the old, because someday we will be old too. We take care of the neighbor’s kid not because we are more spiritual, but because someday my kid may need the help. We are stronger as a whole, than we are as individuals. This gives us a better chance at survival. Remember survival, the number one goal of all species.

    On a more personal note, I hope you never obtain a handicap or have a child that has one.
    What you said makes no sense. Keeping the weak alive is only a burden on society. When you say "We take care of the neighbor’s kid not because we are more spiritual, but because someday my kid may need the help" that’s all fine and dandy but it does not make the tribe stronger it does however give the tribe some peace of mind I would imagine. Because no matter how much of a burden they become to their people they will never be cast aside. And provided I were to ever become handicapped I would rather be dead than a burden to my family or society.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  7. #32
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    provided I were to ever become handicapped I would rather be dead than a burden to my family or society
    you wouldn't be the first to feel that way - tragedy on top of tradegy if yer loved one is disabled and then either commits suicide or simply gives up on life - why not pull yer head out of it, HB, and drop this psuedo-Darwinian nonsense?

    let's try again with another Ph.D. biologist

    http://www.iob.org/editorial_display...htm&cont_id=24

  8. #33
    Fine Tuned silver trophy KC's Avatar
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    URally for someone who is arguing against my point I find it odd that you would take a 50-50 chance with another beings life.
    Hellbent, before you debate this any further maybe you should educate yourself a little bit about decisions a woman makes faced with this situation. Life or death = Give birth or abortion. It was my right to choose. You know....Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happines.

    SUA was discovered well into my second trimester which meant if I decided to abort the baby...well I will save the disgusting details, but lets just say I would have lived with the fact I murdered a human life, which I will reiterate, was never an option. But if you want the link of what it's like to murder an INNOCENT baby, I will be glad to send it to you via a PM.

    Since you are on the subject of taxes, this ought to really get ya. If we were having this debate during the late seventies, guess what? Your well-spent tax dollars would have paid for alot of abortions for women on welfare - 295,000 in 1977 alone. But it was probably your parents that footed the taxes for that one.

    Look, I don't regret my decisions and I'm not to blame for anything. In fact, I'm elated that at my age I'm still able to give life to incredible little human beings.
    Last edited by URAlly; Oct 26, 2002 at 16:04.

  9. #34
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Unhappy women

    ya help with the shoppin'
    ya help pay for the groceries
    ya help gettin' things started in the kitchen ...

    they act like they did all the work

  10. #35
    SitePoint Wizard Bill Posters's Avatar
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    Firstly (on a light note) ...

    Can someone please flick the switch on Mmi?
    He seems to have gone into pun overdrive.

    --

    Secondly, forgive me if am repeating any previous points.
    I am not following this (or the other thread) as close as I perhaps should given that I'm posting on it. I am pretty much responding solely to the essence of HB's position which can easily be ascertained just by knowing anything about his previous posts.

    --

    HB, I can see where you are coming from, but I do recognise it as a very limiting, perhaps even *anti*-evolutionary, viewpoint.

    What needs to be recognised here is that the evolution of humankind is no longer a purely physiological process.
    Humankind has now evolved to the degree that our societal habits and instincts for empathy strongly suggest that, for us, evolution is also an intellectual process.

    In fact, it could well be argued that the physiological aspects of human evolution have now taken a back seat to cerebral and spiritual (for want of a better term) evolution.

    Whereas survival of the fittest may effect a balance in natural selection, we may well be facing the beginning of an era dominated by our ability to evolve psychologically.
    Survival of the physically fittest may answer many physical questions. However, given that the immediate questions about the future of mankind now instinctively rest largely upon our talent and ability to 'think' of a solution, I am of the opinion that empathy will prove to be a more useful tool for the advancement of humankind than a revertion to a set of instincts long since surpassed.

    <aside>
    The need for a higher intellectual answer to over-population may well just be one of those intellectual excercises that helps propel us forward to the next phase of our evolution. Over-population may well have been an inevitability that was always going to require us to think beyond that which we already know to prepare us for the next step.
    </aside>

    HB, by expecting us to obey an instinct we progressed beyond thousands of years ago you are asking us to ignore an instinct that has been evolved into us in the time since and which now forms the greater part of us.
    What hope is there of progressive evolution if we forego the best of what we have become only to become the worst of what we used to be?
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  11. #36
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: defective jeans - well, if you've got the receipt, ya should get a store credit

    Mmi ... seems to have gone into pun overdrive
    Member: I understand this is SitePoint.
    Advisor: (still with the fake mustache) Yes?
    M: You told me it was Ipswitch!
    A: ... It was a pun.

    http://looney.physics.sunysb.edu/~da...ty/parrot.html

    btw, for all you cyberbabes, my genes are in mint (in fact almost uncirculated ) condition and available for deposit anytime
    the worst of what we used to be
    ya mean Reagan Democrats?

    ya say ya want an evolution
    well, ya know
    ya better free yer mmind instead

  12. #37
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    It would appear the thread has changed. Welcome Bill, Im glad you decided to weigh in on this one.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  13. #38
    Fine Tuned silver trophy KC's Avatar
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    Re: women

    Originally posted by mmi
    ya help with the shoppin'
    ya help pay for the groceries
    ya help gettin' things started in the kitchen ...

    they act like they did all the work

  14. #39
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellbent

    What you said makes no sense. Keeping the weak alive is only a burden on society.
    I see how this makes no sense to someone of our culture. To you it's keeping 'THEM' alive, it's separate from you, there's YOU and there's them, lesser than you.

    Removing these people from the tribe is like removing your arm because it is asleep. They are part of you, and if they are down, then you are down. In our culture, I have actually witnessed a person stepping over a homeless person on their way to work and say, "will someone remove these people." This doesn't happen in some cultures. There is no homeless, because those people are me, and I am them and if they are having problems then so am I. This is not to idolize these cultures, but they do have some things right. We dismiss them and call them uncivilized, but I’m not so sure about that.

    Lastly, if your goal is to get through life without being burdened or being a burden, then you’re missing it, big time.

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellbent
    What you said makes no sense. Keeping the weak alive is only a burden on society.
    Been reading this thread and finally decided to pitch in.

    Hellbent...don't you realize the value that these "weak" people have to our society? In the case of MMI's mother, you said that you could do "nothing" and it [her broken hip] would take care of itself. Well, what if his mother had previously made valuable contributions to society? Would you not agree that it might be worth a little money and time to gain access to decades of life experience, and in some cases, medical or musical or technical expertise?

    I mean in your ideal world, we could simply do away with lots of people. I mean, musicians don't really contribute to society do they? They don't produce a valuable product..it's just music. They can't build buildings or heal people or protect others from harm. Why not only allow certain jobs to exist. While you're at it, why not get rid of words that we don't really need.

    You know...I think I've changed my mind...I think your idea is double-plus-good.
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  16. #41
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Creole you missed what I said.

    Originally posted by creole
    Been reading this thread and finally decided to pitch in.

    Hellbent...don't you realize the value that these "weak" people have to our society? In the case of MMI's mother, you said that you could do "nothing" and it [her broken hip] would take care of itself. Well, what if his mother had previously made valuable contributions to society? Would you not agree that it might be worth a little money and time to gain access to decades of life experience, and in some cases, medical or musical or technical expertise?
    "mmi talks about murdering his 85-year-old mother. This will not be necessary, if during her life she has made appropriate choices to insure her financial security in old age then she should be cared for because she is no burden. However if she has not made these choices then all you need do is quite simply, nothing. Murder would not be necessary."

    Originally posted by creole
    I mean in your ideal world, we could simply do away with lots of people. I mean, musicians don't really contribute to society do they? They don't produce a valuable product..it's just music. They can't build buildings or heal people or protect others from harm. Why not only allow certain jobs to exist.
    My ideal world? Musician is as good a profession as any (creole seems to know somehow im a musician). If they can make their living without burdening their society more power to them. You seem to be missing the point of my words. Everyone is talking about "Social Evolution" and "Higher Reasoning" and that’s fine, but there is NO doubt that changing the natural order of things is adversely affecting the overall genetic makeup of our species. It is not even an arguable point, right or wrong as you feel it to be it is a fact. Also another thing, you don't necessarily have to contribute to society to avoid burdening it.

    Originally posted by creole
    While you're at it, why not get rid of words that we don't really need.

    You know...I think I've changed my mind...I think your idea is double-plus-good.
    Now here you may be on to something. In my "Ideal World" as you call it the words that could go away are "deformity", "congenital", "handout", "charity", "pity", "welfare", etc.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  17. #42
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Golgotha


    I see how this makes no sense to someone of our culture. To you it's keeping 'THEM' alive, it's separate from you, there's YOU and there's them, lesser than you.

    Removing these people from the tribe is like removing your arm because it is asleep. They are part of you, and if they are down, then you are down. In our culture, I have actually witnessed a person stepping over a homeless person on their way to work and say, "will someone remove these people." This doesn't happen in some cultures. There is no homeless, because those people are me, and I am them and if they are having problems then so am I. This is not to idolize these cultures, but they do have some things right. We dismiss them and call them uncivilized, but I’m not so sure about that.

    Lastly, if your goal is to get through life without being burdened or being a burden, then you’re missing it, big time.
    That’s a very kind view you take. Unfortunately it is not a position that can be supported through fact or logic. It seems to me you are a firm believer in egalitarianism. If this is the case I doubt I will sway your fanatical views. This too is another gross falsehood that much of the western world has adopted. It seems apparent enough to me that regardless of some unrealistic high moral edict passed down from dead men, that we are "all created equal" that many men have proven their own inferiority.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  18. #43
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellbent


    That’s a very kind view you take. Unfortunately it is not a position that can be supported through fact or logic. It seems to me you are a firm believer in egalitarianism.
    My views don't need to be supported by fact or logic, rather careful observation will be enough. They don't do it because they are more moral or spiritual or caring, but because it is what is best for the tribe.

  19. #44
    Database Jedi MattR's Avatar
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    That's why I secretly go and remove all the safely devices on the power tools at Sears...

  20. #45
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    Hellbent is correct about 'all men are created equal'. It is painfully obvious that all men are not created equal in any sense.

  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard johnn's Avatar
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    by golgotha
    Mozart- Deaf
    Roosevelt - wheelchair bound
    Harriet Tubman - civil rights activist - Epilepsy
    Tom Wiggins - composer - autistic
    Helen Keller - Activist- Deaf / Blind
    Jhamak Ghimire - Poet - cerebral palsy

    These people have probably contributed more to humanity than some of the brightest scholars around, not to mention the genetically 'normal'. The question is, what are you contributing?
    Add two more:
    Abraham Lincoln - schizophrenia
    Thomas Edison - deaf

  22. #47
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Polymath
    Hellbent is correct about 'all men are created equal'. It is painfully obvious that all men are not created equal in any sense.
    I don't think this was ever in debate. You mean you don't think I could take Shaquille Oneal at hoops?

    I think a bigger point to be noted is that not everyone needs to be a scholar, a college graduate or even a high school graduate, we need the ditch diggers too, we need the janitors, we need these people just as much as the so called famed professions.

  23. #48
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Golgotha
    My views don't need to be supported by fact or logic
    This will be akin to debating with a Christian for me then.

    Originally posted by Golgotha
    They don't do it because they are more moral or spiritual or caring, but because it is what is best for the tribe.
    Im sorry but you are wrong. There is nothing you can say that could possibly make beleive that someone who is unable to provide for themselves is not a burden on their tribe. You argument simply defies logic.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  24. #49
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    Hehe... according to this thread I should have put a bullet in my head 19 years ago. Someone should go tell my employees that I have done nothing for others or society, that I haven't contributed to the betterment of their life. I think they'll have to disagree...

    Life is good...
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  25. #50
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Hellbent, do me a favor, next time you quote me, quote the whole sentence.

    what I said was, "My views don't need to be supported by fact or logic, rather careful observation will be enough. "

    If you were going to learn more about another culture, how would you do it? I'll give you the answer, it has nothing to do with what YOU think will be logical. It has nothing to do with what YOU think are the facts. It can ONLY be done by careful observation.


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