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  1. #26
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    perhaps the best way of determining whether something will help SEO is to ask if it will help real people to find the site. The goal of the search engines is to help people find the pages with the information those people are looking for. If the search engines could actually do what they are trying to achieve then there'd be no SEO at all - SEO is just adjusting things so as to make it easier for the dumb search engines to find out what they are looking for about the web pages based on their limited ability.

    As for the domain name being a minor factor - Google uses over 200 different tests to determine placement in search results. Does anyone realistically expect that the domain name would play a part in more than a small number of these tests. Even if it is a part of 90 of these tests it would still be a relatively minor factor.

    Most SEO is just common sense and knowledge of how the web works. If you make the pages attractive to real people as your first concern then any legitimate SEO tweaking will be minor. Anything more than that would be trying to scam the search engines and while it might get you a better ranking now it will get you banned later. Once search engines do become intelligent enough to actually work out the right pages to display it will be interesting to see just how many currently top ranking sites are gone from the results.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoBear View Post
    I make no claims to know anything at all about off-page SEO, so I wanted to see what more knowledgeable folk than myself think. Unfortunately, the person who gave them this advice has since died, so I can't ask him what he was basing it on.
    There are plenty of other forums that have much more knowledgeable members on the subject of SEO, unfortunately I can't name them but if you google seo forum you can ask this same question and get answers from people with practical experience. You're better asking this quesiton of people who do SEO for a living and don't just imagine themselves to be knowledegable about it.

    The SEO forum on Sitepoint should be closed and replaced with the stickies written by Stymiee and Aspen.

    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    perhaps the best way of determining whether something will help SEO is to ask if it will help real people to find the site.
    Really.. explain how nofollow links help people find your site and how they help SEO? What a ridiculous thing to say.



    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    The goal of the search engines is to help people find the pages with the information those people are looking for.
    Nope, the goal of the search engines is to make a profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    As for the domain name being a minor factor - Google uses over 200 different tests to determine placement in search results. Does anyone realistically expect that the domain name would play a part in more than a small number of these tests.
    So your categorical statement that domains have a 'very minor' impact is just a guess based on knowing that there are 200+ ranking signals (they're not called 'factors' or 'tests' stephen).

    But in answer to your question, yes, given that Google saw fit to make an entire video about how they were going to address the problem of overpowered exact match domains and I don't see them doing it for most of the other 200+ signals AND given how much I've read on the subject in posts written on SEO forums by people who HAVE tested this and DO know something about SEO because they actually do it for a living, I realistically expect that domains play much more than a 'minor' part in rankings.

    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Most SEO is just common sense and knowledge of how the web works.
    I see. So your authoritive, categorical statements on SEO are you using your common sense?

    Can you do me a favour? Please list the 200+ signals that Google use in their ranking algo and then place them in order of importance, should be easy, just use your common sense.
    It's 530 people, but do you really get it?
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  3. #28
    SitePoint Zealot MrFlicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    There are plenty of other forums that have much more knowledgeable members on the subject of SEO, unfortunately I can't name them but if you google seo forum you can ask this same question and get answers from people with practical experience. You're better asking this quesiton of people who do SEO for a living and don't just imagine themselves to be knowledegable about it.

    The SEO forum on Sitepoint should be closed and replaced with the stickies written by Stymiee and Aspen.



    Really.. explain how nofollow links help people find your site and how they help SEO? What a ridiculous thing to say.





    Nope, the goal of the search engines is to make a profit.



    So your categorical statement that domains have a 'very minor' impact is just a guess based on knowing that there are 200+ ranking signals (they're not called 'factors' or 'tests' stephen).

    But in answer to your question, yes, given that Google saw fit to make an entire video about how they were going to address the problem of overpowered exact match domains and I don't see them doing it for most of the other 200+ signals AND given how much I've read on the subject in posts written on SEO forums by people who HAVE tested this and DO know something about SEO because they actually do it for a living, I realistically expect that domains play much more than a 'minor' part in rankings.



    I see. So your authoritive, categorical statements on SEO are you using your common sense?

    Can you do me a favour? Please list the 200+ signals that Google use in their ranking algo and then place them in order of importance, should be easy, just use your common sense.
    Can I start?

    1 Title

    First word or two or three sometimes four and even five words in your title are the A1 most important factor/signal to every search engine (well every search engine that matters in this context

    Obviously Wolfram Alpha couldn't give two hoots about each pages Title (note the each page there).

    So who wants to add number 2?

    This is thread is funny btw

  4. #29
    SitePoint Zealot MrFlicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    If the additional domains are set up to redirect then the search engines never see those domains at all as they only see the final domain the page is on.

    If the additional domains point to the same content without redirecting then they are seen by the search engines but the content is duplicated and so again the search engines ignore them.

    It is only when you set up the additional domains with their own separate content that the search engines can see them. They are then judged based on that content and what other sites link to them just as applies to any web page.
    Question

    I put a link on a web site

    Any website Let's say for arguments sake it is http://www.number10.gov.uk/

    OK I have my link on the site the link is a redirect URL

    This link is the-worlds-best-kept-secret-revealed.com

    When the "the-worlds-best-kept-secret-revealed.com" is clicked on number10 it redirects to "the-worlds-best-kept-secret.com"

    According to what you have just stated Google (or presumably other spiders reading words on the web) cannot see these words on the number ten site and does not recognise their existence in any way (they can't see them after all) and although they can't see these links and words they will mark them as duplicate content

    Now at the risk of getting this deleted and myself banned do you realise how incredibly stupid your statements sound when put together and dissected as I just tried to do to to simplify things and explain why what you are saying does not make any logical sense?

  5. #30
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFlicks View Post
    When the "the-worlds-best-kept-secret-revealed.com" is clicked on number10 it redirects to "the-worlds-best-kept-secret.com"
    Either "the-worlds-best-kept-secret.com" is ignored because it doesn't have a web page attached to it and so there is no actual page for it to provide a benefit to OR it points to the same page as "the-worlds-best-kept-secret-revealed.com" and is therefore duplicate content which will also be ignored.

    Of course in that situation you would have TEXT in the link for people to click on to get to the destination page and that text would be significant for SEO.

    The important thing to remember is that SEO is defined by the search engines as black hat and ANYTHING that you do that doesn't make the experience better for real people will eventually be penalised. Eventually the scamster profession of "SEO Expert" will cease to exist. If you make the experience as friendly as possible for real people then it may not have quite as great an immediatel impact as scamming the search engines vis SEO but it will have a more significant effect long term.



    The most important reason for getting additional domains for a single web site has nothing whatever to do with SEO. By getting those extra domains you prevent other people from getting them and setting up competing sites. Any SEO effect of having the additional domains is effectiveloy ZERO in comparison to the impact that has.
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  6. #31
    SitePoint Zealot MrFlicks's Avatar
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    So you are now saying that to use a domain in directories as a redirect, let's say in order to make sure the directory listings didn't interfere with your own Serps and other online marketing, is "Black Hat" and would in some way be detrimental to the end users experience.

    felgall where do you get this stuff from? It is still making no sense. Do you do SEO at all? Proper SEO I mean where you get results based on making the search results better match the search queries and use "links" for other things that work with your natural SERPS?

    There is nothing "Black Hat" or anything like it in what I have mentioned. Black Hat seeks to find holes they can exploit whereas god SEO works with the SE's and the above I have mentioned in no way does anything that works to the contrary.

    If you think and believe that the only and important reason for other domains of similar names or context is just to stop others I will leave you with your thinking Sir as that suits those who think differently just fine.

  7. #32
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    The 301 command is an instruction that basically indicatesd "this address has permanently changed sp please ignore this address and substitute the one it redirects to". Why would you expect a search engine to disregard an HTTP code that is instructing it to ignore the address?

    If you want the redirecting domain to not be ignored then you would either use a 302 redirect to indicate that the redirect is only temporary or you would need to intercept the 301 before it is sent and replace it with a 200 instead so as to indicate that the access was successful and to ignore that the redirect happened at all.

    If you don't understand basic HTTP codes then you obviously have no idea of what you are doing with SEO.

    A 301 redirect is specifically an instruction to IGNORE the address that is being redirected BECAUSE it has been PERMANENTLY changed.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Eventually the scamster profession of "SEO Expert" will cease to exist.
    Would your definition of 'SEO expert' be people who make categorical statements about how search engines rank pages when they don't actually know?

    The irony is thick enough to cut with a knife :P

    Anyway, I've asked you a number of questions on this thread that you've steadfastly ignored so here they are again, for the benefit of everyone reading this thread, if you'd be so kind as to take your valuable time and actually answer them:

    1. What is the actual SEO experience from which you draw to make your statements, like domains have a 'very minor impact'?

    2. Can you list the 200+ ranking signals just using your common sense?

    3. If things that help SEO are the things that help real people find your website (as you said in post #26), how does 'nofollow' fit into your SEO theories?


    Quote Originally Posted by MrFlicks View Post
    Can I start?

    1 Title

    So who wants to add number 2?

    This is thread is funny btw
    2 Exact match domain

    It's only going to get funnier.
    It's 530 people, but do you really get it?
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  9. #34
    SitePoint Zealot MrFlicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    The 301 command is an instruction that basically indicatesd "this address has permanently changed sp please ignore this address and substitute the one it redirects to". Why would you expect a search engine to disregard an HTTP code that is instructing it to ignore the address?

    If you want the redirecting domain to not be ignored then you would either use a 302 redirect to indicate that the redirect is only temporary or you would need to intercept the 301 before it is sent and replace it with a 200 instead so as to indicate that the access was successful and to ignore that the redirect happened at all.

    If you don't understand basic HTTP codes then you obviously have no idea of what you are doing with SEO.

    A 301 redirect is specifically an instruction to IGNORE the address that is being redirected BECAUSE it has been PERMANENTLY changed.
    OK I will take your word for it that I don't know what I am doing

    Actually you could be right

    I am only number 2 on Google for "hire best SEO writer" and only have number one on Bing & Yahoo so as I can't get number 1 on Google and only have position 2 I suppose you are right, I can't know owt about SEO now can I? I mean position 2 that's rubbish isn't it?

    @JJMcClure

    Drop me off some of that Moonshine you re running there bandit I shall need some after this

    RE the second indicator

    Good call

    There are only 4 winners in the Domain name game

    Exact Match

    Brands

    Those who do the SEO or get it done

    or 4th those with the marketing budget "Simples"



    So I think we should let someone else give us number 3

    Anyone like to offer something?

    Or are we just to continue with the "lets tell people what I heard type of thing where we listen but we do not try for ourselves to see if what this person or that person says is actually true" type of thing?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFlicks View Post

    Or are we just to continue with the "lets tell people what I heard type of thing where we listen but we do not try for ourselves to see if what this person or that person says is actually true" type of thing?
    My point exactly. I'm not really saying that exact match domains are #2.

    There's enough evidence to suggest that domains have more than a 'minor impact', plus there's the fact that felgall has a habit of making authoratitive statements like that without actually having the knowledge or experience to do it and I'm simply trying to get him to either stop doing it, politely, of course or.. back it up with some actual evidence and/or practical experience.

    But... no one here can say one way or the other. It's just a question of how you interpret the evidence.

    I'm just waiting to see if he'll actually answer my questions.
    It's 530 people, but do you really get it?
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  11. #36
    SitePoint Zealot MrFlicks's Avatar
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    If anyone wants to know how difficult it can be to beat some exact match domains I would suggest they search

    "Hire An Illustrator"

    Then I dare anyone to tell me that exact match is not only important it is a huge factor.

    So huge it is actually also a huge problem

    A problem Google presently do not have a solution to.

    Masses of Counterfeit goods are sold via exact match domain named sites. Problem is though circa 98% of how Google deals with the info it finds involves text and making sense of that text, so how they are going to tackle the exact match domain problem without it affecting legit ones is up for speculation for many a month more and beyond me thinks.
    Speculation

    That's a nice word that "Speculation" it sums up the sort of thing that Copyscape could pick up with a bit of fine tuning if you get my drift

    It's quite easy to speculate and it sound authoritative

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    Anyway, I've asked you a number of questions on this thread that you've steadfastly ignored so here they are again, for the benefit of everyone reading this thread, if you'd be so kind as to take your valuable time and actually answer them:
    Excuse me, but there is already a perfectly good question in this thread, which is the one I asked initially and you seem not to have answered.

    Clearly, you have a problem with felgall. Might I suggest you find a way to sort it out that doesn't involve hi-jacking this or any other thread? You might disagree with his replies, but at least he has tried to answer my question, several times, very civilly. I have re-read this entire thread three times and am unable to find your answer to my original post.

    Please could we put down the handbags and get this thread back on topic?

    Thank you.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoBear View Post
    I have re-read this entire thread three times and am unable to find your answer to my original post.
    I'm sorry if you feel I've hijacked the thread, that wasn't my intention (threads often deviate organically, which this one did after the actual subject fizzled out), can I suggest that you re-read the thread as I think that the only answers you're going to get are there, the general consensus is that no one on this forum knows for sure. Also, your last words on the subject were "I'm convinced I'd be wasting my money" and "that does also seem to confirm my original theory that the practise is useless for improving SERP" so from my perspective the question has been answered to your satisfaction.

    So, unless you have something to add, I think Felgall answering my questions would be beneficial to anyone else reading the thread, ok with you?
    It's 530 people, but do you really get it?
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  14. #39
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoBear View Post
    Can anyone give me genuine information on this point, rather than hearsay and rumour?
    The second point that I made way back in post 2 is the most important consideration for getting extra domains - it prevents other people from obtaining those domains and setting up sites to compete with you. That makes getting the extra domains worthwhile regardless of any other impact that they have on getting genuine visitors to your site. Of course they will also bring extra visitors to your site simply by people typing in likely addresses in their browser. So you get a huge benefit from having the domains without even needing to consider how the search engines will treat them.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    The second point that I made way back in post 2 is the most important consideration for getting extra domains - it prevents other people from obtaining those domains
    So you're now saying that there aren't any SEO considerations or is it that you're sticking with your 'very minor impact' statement?

    Fine, but can you please back it up with some knowledge you've gained from practical experience with this, or at the very least some linked sources that counter the sources I mentioned that suggest that domains do in fact have more than a minor impact, so far you've given us nothing but speculation which just confuses the issue.

    Also, when do you plan to answer my questions? The SEO community on SP can only benefit from you doing that, ignoring them just makes you look like you don't know the answers.
    It's 530 people, but do you really get it?
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  16. #41
    SitePoint Zealot MrFlicks's Avatar
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    Could I just add a scenario where an extra domain could be a saving grace for a business please?

    No answer (og I'm still typing Doh)

    OK I will write it anyway (Hey I am only trying to add some humour here! ).

    Ok

    You (Everyone reading)

    You own

    Worlds-Best-Widget.com

    It makes thousands every week. People love your Widget it is the best selling commercial widget for WordPress. Almost every time a little thing pops up in the corner of your screen it is yet another sale.

    You sit on beach with your Laptop supping your Sangria and marvel at your good luck.

    One Monday morning you head down to the beach with your trusty Laptop. And about 11am you realise there are no little notififications coming through.

    Sales have stopped.

    You investigate and Shock Horror your site has been hacked. Stolen, your are completely locked out.

    You start to try and fix things.

    Next day you find you are no linger listed on Google and it looks like your little bubble has burst and it is back to the grindstone for you.

    But wait you have a back up plan

    Luckily you had the forethought after noticing some directory listing messing up your own SERPS that you would use a different domain and so all your directory listings (where circa 20 to 25% of your sales come from) are on a redirect domain and it is called

    Worlds-Best-WP-Widget.com

    So you remove the redirect and load your old site up (you have a clean unhacked version on your hard drive (phew) and Bobs your uncle a slower tickle of sales notifications begin.

    OK you are only making 25% (Circa) of what you we're making but you are back online and low and behold about 4 or 5 perhaps six days later your newly loaed domain has somehow now got your SERPS back.

    Your old domain has vanished but somehow Google have replaced the links you had on page 1 making some 60% of your other sales are now all nice and fresh again and new and your notifications are near back to normal and sales are back to ABOUT 80% OF WHAT THEY AVERAGED B4. = BIZ SAVED!!!

    Where please tell me where is the detrimental effect to the search engines results?

    Where is there no benefit for SEO (both b4 and after redirect got changed)? (Don't forget you use this so directories don't compete with your own SERPS by using your keywords in the listings)

    And how can doing this and buying other domains as a back up plan (just one of many possibilities if you open up your mind) outlined above be of no use, a waste of money or not a well thought out, out of the bx (thinking wise) back up plan to ensure your presence should things go wrong?

    I do not see how a person can say "There is no SEO benefit"

    SEO is in essence helping the SE's to improve the search results for everyone.

    If this includes using a redirected domain as a back up plan I would venture Google would be far more likely to reward you for making sure peole still find what they are looking for than they would to penalise you if you did this as a back up plan as I outlined above

    I would go so far as to say it is IMHO (I have not tried this I am just going by a gut feeling) if your first site got hacked and you could not fix it the chances are Google would indeed recognise your new site as the solution

    It takes a couple of mins to pop over to G Webmaster tools and add a site map and confirm your site and write on the site about the problem.

    I would not wish this on anyone (the hacking part) but I bet this would work.

    Now I have stated clearly I do not know for sure your SERPS would get restored with the new domain but form what I know I would say there is a very good chance this would be what would happen.

    More especially perhaps if you had to contact Google RE the hacking on original site.


    I am not saying this will happen (The SERPS replaced I mean)

    But it could

    Without the other domain name of course you will never know

    You got hacked , you had no back up plan. Your biz died. The Job Centre is that way >

    To make matters worse

    You purchased a Tesla Roadstar for cash the day b4 you got hacked and you only had $200 left in your account. Trouble with that is though your totally successful WP widget site needed a dedicated server and that cost $500 a month (hey it's worth it you make 50 times that) and the account needs paying tomorrow!

    Ut oh (All ridiculous I know but food for thought).

    Any Company with more than one word in their domain could use the hyphented version of their domain as a redirect without directory listings to achieve the same back up scenario to!

  17. #42
    SitePoint Zealot MrFlicks's Avatar
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    PS

    RE exact match

    Google cannot solve the problem of exact match. As far as I can ascertain it needs to be done on a site by site basis.

    One thing I am pretty sure of though.

    If CompareTheMarket.com got hacked and by some bizarre thing that could likely never happen they really could not solve the problem the answer lays in Compare-The-Market.com
    sorry for extra post I ran out of edit time


    Exact Match works for both presently (to some extent with a slight sway towards the unhyphenated - which may not be real but forced into belief by being used more)

    both being with and without hyphens

  18. #43
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    I know why business person prefer to business related domain name because you are purchase business related domain name. Seo point of view good effect of site.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Zealot MrFlicks's Avatar
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    Can you do some English Language copywriting for me please outsource?

    Or really "Say What?"

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Search engines look primarily at web pages - the domain name is a very minor factor.

    Also search engines ignore duplicate content and so will only list one of those addresses in their results.

    Getting the extra domains serves two purposes neither of which has anything to do with search.
    1. It provides an alternative way for people typing in the address manually to get to the site - those people who forget the exact address is frodomotors but remember it is something to do with middle earth might try typing in middleearthcarhire
    2. It prevents others from registering those names and setting up competing businesses.
    Your answer is above, not only does having multiple domain based on keywords helps but the fact that the extra domain passes authority (which will increase serp) but if the serp ever goes stale you can sell the domain and no the whole site. I think thats handy.


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