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  1. #26
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    Originally posted by voostind
    - A couple of knowledgable and/or experienced people should run the project.
    And these people shouldn't have personality/ego problems. This is why Stig is really suited to the job but unfortunately he doesn't have the time (I will not comment on whether he has the skill as I don't know). Diving off-topic, but sometimes people forget that personality can count for as much as skill - if the lead can't get on with the developers then nothing will go right.

    (Do you really want 'sequences' in PEAR DB? Short answer: NO!)
    How should they be handled?

    - Those responsible for the library (the guys/women I just mentioned) must provide a guideline of what code should look like. I don't mean that in the sense of "Use tabs instead of spaces" or something like that. I mean it more like this: "If a function/method returns an object, it should always be of the same class.". Those guidelines force a programmer into thinking about what he's coding much better.
    Do you not feel that coding standards are good then? I like them as it means that I can easily read new code - pull a random class from PHPClasses and try reading it straight off and I'd have problems. What? no whitespace in this file???

    I understand what you mean though - there are more important standards that can be set than how the code should look

    [b]So the method shouldn't be there. If an application needs something like 'fetchOne', let the application programmer put it in his/her own code.[B]
    I'm going to disagree. Because these methods (and the get*() ones ) are so useful they should be in PEAR - but in a separate class that extends the standard database one. I feel taht it's better to have these useful tools distributed with the code to prevent everyone from having to write their own, but I agree with you that they shouldn't be in the main library.
    Oh and a small point about all of you here: you are typically NOT the 'awful coders' I'm talked about in my previous post. Reason: your being here shows that you are aware of the difficulties of programming, and of the eagerness to learn.
    Nice of you to say so

  2. #27
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    To me the whole .NET thing is a bit of a religious crusade - it comes down to whether you want to support Microsoft or the opposition. Short-term it's usually best to go with Microsoft - they always make sure of that. But once Microsoft have eliminated the opposition, then they'll use their monopoly position to make you pay.

  3. #28
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    And these people shouldn't have personality/ego problems. ... Diving off-topic, but sometimes people forget that personality can count for as much as skill - if the lead can't get on with the developers then nothing will go right.
    Of course. This is one of the main reasons Open Source projects so often fail. Try to find an experienced developer who has the will and time to head a large project, and of course he/she has to be a generally nice person as well...

    I don't know Stig too well either, so I won't say he is perfect for the job or no. I do think new additions are approved to quickly. I remember seeing on the PEAR mailing list a single programmer who needed some feature specific for his work, and Stig approved to put it in PEAR. There were too few arguments, and a wrong decision was the result.

    [On sequences] How should they be handled?
    They shouldn't. This is a large discussion that deserves a thread on its own, so I won't go into it here. The basic problem lies with MySQL. As long as there is a single sole that thinks MySQL is a proper DBMS, there will be also be those who say sequences should be handled at the application level (= PHP). In truth, sequences (or autoincrements, or identities, or whatever you wish to call them) are details of the implementation of the DBMS, and should be left there.

    [On coding guidelines] I understand what you mean though - there are more important standards that can be set than how the code should look.
    That is indeed what I meant. Of course it is important programmers use clear formatting and obvious variable names and such, but there other things that are even more important.

    I feel taht it's better to have these useful tools distributed with the code to prevent everyone from having to write their own, but I agree with you that they shouldn't be in the main library.
    I think we can settle for an agreement here...

    Of course I think programmers shouldn't have to write the same code over and over again, but a decision to place such code in the library should be made after considering (at least) these three points:
    - Does it really simplify things?
    - If the code wasn't in the library, would programmers really need to write lots of code?
    - Will each and every application want to handle the simplification in the exact same way?

    In most cases, the decision will turn out to be a negative one. On the other hand, I do agree that it can be a good idea to place such code at a higher level in the library; like a helper class.

    Vincent

  4. #29
    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
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    code standards

    Do you not feel that coding standards are good then? I like them as it means that I can easily read new code - pull a random class from PHPClasses and try reading it straight off and I'd have problems. What? no whitespace in this file???
    Get a 'code beautifier' and run the code through that after you download it, or perhaps before it's committed for public consumption. I get really tired of hearing about people complain about code with space v tabs, or tab=4 space or 8 spaces. At the end of the day it really is a matter of personal taste - there are now beautifier programs (at least one I've referenced a few places) that can redo the code in multiple styles - pull the code, run it through that program. Or get som VIM fanatics to write a macro to do it with a hpcode command
    Michael Kimsal
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  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Just to kick this half of the debate back into life, what no ones really talking about here is .NET vs Java.

    Found an excellent article here: http://www.fawcette.com/dotnetmag/20...umns/strategy/ comparing the two.

    Some highlights;

    Java is top down technology
    Java technology tends to take center stage when companies address technology needs in "big" strategic terms such as best-of-breed vendor selection, long-term architectural compliance, legacy extension, and interoperability.
    MS is bottom up technology
    Alternatively, smaller enterprises and small independent groups in larger enterprises tend to lean more strongly toward Microsoft development technologies as their focal points. These groups are better able to consolidate their data centers around a single platform and are consequently better able to commit to Microsoft's technology exclusively
    About J#
    This will have a limited appeal to developers with an existing background and expertise in Java development. At worst, J# will cloud and confuse the value of Microsoft's own C# language and at best will serve as a intermediary step along the road to C# for the last half dozen developers hidden somewhere on a deserted island who still use Visual J++.

    And finally...

    Not to mention the fringe factor that believes Linux and PHP will dominate the world, insisting that we all bow down to the great penguin.
    While Java and .NET tie up IT meetings for years to come, PHP will rule the world!

  6. #31
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    J# does some to be a waste of space, C# has clearly taken a lot from java and it's similarities would make the transition from Java to C# quite painless, which does make you wonder why they even bothered with J#.

  7. #32
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Yes, I too wonder what the hell J# is for. C# is so close to Java anyway. Java does have a lot of edge over .NET, especially since Java has enoumous credibility, if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it and existing cross-platform support.

    .NET has got the multi-language thing going for it, though, and the fact that it's MUCH faster than Java.

    But frankly, if you have an existing Java solution that works well, there really isn't any reason to switch. Hell, it doesn't matter if it's wirtten in friggin' BASIC if it works well.
    Mattias Johansson
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  8. #33
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    Everything has its place

    As a Cold Fusion, PHP, DOT NET, Oracle Forms developer, I've noticed a couple of things.

    One, fit the technology to the project, not the project to the technology. DOT NET/C#/ASP is great for some things; others, you are better with a CF/PHP approach.

    Two, regardless of the arguments you won't convince anyone. People who have chosen 'sides' are looking for vindication, not education. If you present arguments in favor one way or another, people will either claim you got it wrong or rub it in that they were right. Ultimately, it doesn't matter; what matters is the skill of the developer. A developer with good logic skills and the right attitude can program in Java, turn around and use those skills in C#, layout an application in CF/PHP. Knowing how to program is what's important, not the language.

    But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

    Chris Hansen
    tchansen@xmission.com

  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I'd have to argue with the "talking does nothing" statement. I think Harry, Mattias and myself can all say we've been educated by these threads.

    Heck, I even did my first PHP site last week and didn't once cringe.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  10. #35
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    I'd have to argue with the "talking does nothing" statement. I think Harry, Mattias and myself can all say we've been educated by these threads.

    Heck, I even did my first PHP site last week and didn't once cringe.
    I sit corrected. <smile>

    I'm used to presenting arguments or presentations to people (developers, designers, implementers) and then having them go, "So? I like writing in BASIC."

    I'm all for education - I'm a Broadcast Journalism Graduate turned application developer/designer.

    Chris Hansen
    tchansen@xmission.com

  11. #36
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Re: Everything has its place

    Originally posted by tchansen
    As a Cold Fusion, PHP, DOT NET, Oracle Forms developer, I've noticed a couple of things.

    One, fit the technology to the project, not the project to the technology. DOT NET/C#/ASP is great for some things; others, you are better with a CF/PHP approach.

    Two, regardless of the arguments you won't convince anyone. People who have chosen 'sides' are looking for vindication, not education. If you present arguments in favor one way or another, people will either claim you got it wrong or rub it in that they were right. Ultimately, it doesn't matter; what matters is the skill of the developer. A developer with good logic skills and the right attitude can program in Java, turn around and use those skills in C#, layout an application in CF/PHP. Knowing how to program is what's important, not the language.

    But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

    Chris Hansen
    tchansen@xmission.com
    I would like to officially declare Chris Hansen the winner in the ASP vs. PHP debate, if that's okay. Thank god for this post - I can now be productive again.
    Mattias Johansson
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  12. #37
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    Re: Re: Everything has its place

    Originally posted by M. Johansson


    I would like to officially declare Chris Hansen the winner in the ASP vs. PHP debate, if that's okay. Thank god for this post - I can now be productive again.
    Hey... are you making fun of me? Teach me to comment, eh? <smile>

  13. #38
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Everything has its place

    Originally posted by tchansen


    Hey... are you making fun of me? Teach me to comment, eh? <smile>
    You DID spoil a perfectly good useless argument, after all. Seriously, it was not meant as an insult or anything - you really are right.
    Mattias Johansson
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  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    You know, there are times when the anonymous edit powers of Advisors is very tempting...
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    You know, there are times when the anonymous edit powers of Advisors is very tempting...
    Down with the evil dictator advisor!

    /starts member uprising...*


    *does that sound dodgy or what!!!

  16. #41
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Everything has its place

    Originally posted by M. Johansson


    You DID spoil a perfectly good useless argument, after all. Seriously, it was not meant as an insult or anything - you really are right.
    Oh this is ARGUMENTS! I was looking for ABUSE... must be the next door. (with apologies to Monty Python)

    To be perfectly honest about it, I didn't realize you were having an argument/debate. I thought I was commenting on the article and, as it was my first time commenting, it took me directly to the Post Reply page after registering. Had I read all of you all's previous posts, I wouldn't have tried to muck it up.

    Honest.

    Chris Hansen
    tchansen@xmission.com

  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    We forgive you. Btw, stay awhile, we are trying to find as many people who can put together a decent sentence and point as possible
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  18. #43
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Everything has its place

    Originally posted by tchansen


    Oh this is ARGUMENTS! I was looking for ABUSE... must be the next door. (with apologies to Monty Python)
    LOL

    Originally posted by tchansen
    To be perfectly honest about it, I didn't realize you were having an argument/debate. I thought I was commenting on the article and, as it was my first time commenting, it took me directly to the Post Reply page after registering. Had I read all of you all's previous posts, I wouldn't have tried to muck it up.
    Double LOL

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    We forgive you. Btw, stay awhile, we are trying to find as many people who can put together a decent sentence and point as possible
    Could someone direct me to the door please?

  20. #45
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    You know, there are times when the anonymous edit powers of Advisors is very tempting...
    Sorry, the damage is already done. If harry reads it too, all is lost.
    Mattias Johansson
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  21. #46
    Database Jedi MattR's Avatar
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    You may never convince the other guy, but it's often worthwhile to keep arguing for the effect it has on bystanders, especially his allies.


  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    OK - let me thrust some pace back into this debate. Here's an interesting little ditty: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-957586.html

    One of Microsoft's top executives says that his company is frustrated by the slow adoption of consumer-oriented Web services, once heralded as the future of online commerce.
    Despite the hype, people just aren't using enough SOAP. Do you think it's because;

    [list=a][*]People don't understand web services[*]SOAP is insanely complicated[*]There's no money around right now to spend on them[*]SOAP "ties" you to UDDI - registries of web services owned and run by companies like IBM and Microsoft - people don't want to hand these guys so much power[*]SOAP in fundamentally flawed and only theREST approach has worked out that XML services must be available via Google rather than a UDDI registry.[*]or... because PHP rules the Internet and when we give SOAP permission to be successful, successful it will be [/list=a]

  23. #48
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    Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I've read all the replies to this thread that I just can't help to speak my mind out.

    I've been developing all sorts of stuff using PHP for almost 3 years now. Through those years, never did PHP let me down. Whatever needs to be done there's a way to solve in PHP, although admittedly sometimes there'll be tradeoffs or tedious operations. By the way, to clarify things, when I meant all sorts of stuff, I'm not only referring to websites or e-business sites but to stuff like controllers, ad servers, security systems, etc.

    Now to those who took side to language.NET who have at least intermediate level skills using PHP, give me one VALID reason why language.NET is better than PHP. I don't know anything about .NET besides what I hear or read, which is impressive may I add, BUT have any of you stress-tested it? Based from experience, good things come with tradeoffs. I've tried servlets before and my server (just an old PC) crashed with the same process which works fine with PHP.

    I'm not saying that PHP is better than language.NET, what I'm saying is:
    - PHP have been around for years and have been used for small and large scale systems.
    - PHP is FREE! I've read somewhere that to develop in PHP you'd be spending some hundreds of dollars compared to none using .NET. HA! That guy's dreaming! You can develop in PHP without purchasing a single software. In fact you can publish your PHP in the web for free.
    - Most important of all. PHP is easy to understand and use. Nothing can top that.

  24. #49
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    You are perfectly right that any good thing tends to come with tradeoffs, and so in this case. The tradeoffs with .NET, is that you have to for it. I’m above intermediate level in PHP, and I’d say the tradeoff is definetly worth it, for the reasons I’ve mentioned in my article.

    Originally posted by israel_sioson
    - PHP have been around for years and have been used for small and large scale systems.
    True, but ASP has also been around (albeit in it's crappy form), and run on even more large scale systems.

    - PHP is FREE! I've read somewhere that to develop in PHP you'd be spending some hundreds of dollars compared to none using .NET. HA! That guy's dreaming! You can develop in PHP without purchasing a single software. In fact you can publish your PHP in the web for free.
    PHP is not free to use. It's very cheap, but it's not free. Just because it's free to aquire doesn't mean you are freed from costs of bandwidth, space, processing power, maintenance and most importantly, development time. Many organizations have found that the very powerful toolkit of .NET actually saves them time (and thereby money).

    - Most important of all. PHP is easy to understand and use. Nothing can top that.
    Yes, this is true, and it's the main reason to use PHP - that, and fast implementation of small apps. However, I vehemently disagree that nothing can top that. PHP is easy to understand and use. ASP.NET is hard to understand and VERY easy to use, due to it's very powerful toolkit of class libraries and IDE:s.

    I still claim that PHP is best suited for small scale applications, like relatively simple web sites (that is what it was designed for, after all) and that ASP.NET is better suited for large-scale stuff.

    And israel, about servlets... I'm not at all a Java Developer, nor do I claim to know squat about it, but every single time I've ever tried to do anything with Java on my computer, be it installing the JRE to run Editize or Install Tomcat on Apache, it produced some form of error.
    Mattias Johansson
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  25. #50
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    Since I can't deny .NET's technology is better than PHP's, I'm now looking into another one: JSP. I will not use .NET, nor will I tell my customers to do so. The technology may be good, but as long as Microsoft doesn't change its licensing policy, I refuse to work with it (as many other should but don't because they don't know the licensing policies). I'm not going to 'sell my soul to the devil'.

    Java is much more my language than PHP (I'm an OO guy), so I think JSP is going to suit me just fine. Expect the 'Top 10 Reasons Why JSP Is Better Than ASP' in a few weeks...

    Vincent


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