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  1. #126
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Here's the .NET EULA: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...redisteula.asp

    This EULA is not as restrictive as other MS EULA's. That doesn't matter, because .NET only runs on Windows. So to be able to use .NET, you are also agreeing to all other EULA's Microsoft has placed on that.

    Also, you might want to look here:

    http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op...11opfoster.xml
    http://www.arachnoid.com/boycott/
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/26517.html
    http://slashdot.org/articles/01/06/21/1810258.shtml

    ...or use your favorite search engine and see for yourself....

    Note, I'm certainly not agreeing with all the statements made on the various sites (like boycotting Microsoft). Even I am not that pessimistic. But there's no denying there's something very wrong going on here!)

    Vincent

  2. #127
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by firepages
    PHP is suitable for enterprise development and is used as such
    ColdFusion runs enterprise applications despite being utter carp
    Where did we establish those two facts?
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  3. #128
    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.


    Thanks for the vote of confidence. Installation of software is an MIS issue, thanks. They give the nod, I do the work.
    Are you, and end user, legally bound to the MS EULA if you didn't explicitly accept it? More to the point, if you didn't even read it (MIS installs it, in your case) how can you know what you can and can't do with it? (reverse engineer, for example).

    Yes, it's beyond most average user's day to day capabilities, but I think the question is still valid.
    Michael Kimsal
    =============================
    groovymag.com - for groovy/grails developers
    jsmag.com - for javascript developers

  4. #129
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Most of the objections in the articles, and the terminology in most of the EULA's (which I've now mostly read), is basically: MS can update at will.

    This doesn't apply to us, we have a service contract with MS, whereby updates are loaded to Active Directory, and then systematically installed to our workstations. So, MS can't "force" anything, as that would require them to install a leased line, or hire crooks to come install security updates.

    Sure, some of the terms such as not using Open Source software are rather disconcerting, but MS isn't the only company to have these conditions. For the longest time, and still in some of it's software, IBM didn't allow you to use "unapproved" software at all because it could cause hardware and software failure. Using it forfeited any support.

    This is basically what the MS EULA's say as well. Use at your own risk.

    Yes, it's sobering, but it's not enough for me to boycott or move. Did I make an uneducated "decision". Yeah, but by the time I'd had the EULA's for me to read, it was a touch late (products on my desk, ordered to install).

    So, corporately, my opinion is "yeah, and so?", because that's what my Manager's and Director's opinions would be.

    Personally, I'm definitely wary, but then again I always have been of Microsoft.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  5. #130
    Anonymous
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    This article has been written by someone who displays a total lack of knowledge about .NET. It is a pathetic attempt at getting hits driven to this domain.

    Some points to notice:

    ...such as ASP+ or C# (referred to as "Language.NET" here).

    -->ASP+ is not a language. It was an initial branding MS was applying to .NET in the early beta stages and such.



    ..it's likely to make its first big appearance on corporate Intranets..

    -->What proof/data does the author have to substantiate this claim? What about the hundreds of sites already publishing .NET sites?


    ...the only significant difference is the price. Try asking yourself "So how much does it cost to host this ASP.NET page I just wrote?"

    -->You must ask yourself this question in both cases. You cant tell me that just everyone wanting to do PHP can get enterprise level quality hosting for free, of course with Zend support, etc..
    Very lame point.


    Microsoft's use of the word "compiled" in regard to .NET is not what a C++ coder would call "compiled".

    -->If the author would do a bit of research they would soon discover that MS knows exactly what they are doing. That is the process is similar to the java model. Compiled down into byte code/IL, and then interpreted. Another sure sign of poor research.


    5. ASP.NET has accountable support. PHP has none.

    -->How is MS themselves as the single point of very accountable support? With PHP itself, you have only community itself to aid you. If you choose to buy the additional stuff (Zend, etc..) then you can begin holding them more accountable. Either way, is this article about .NET itself, and not just ASP.NET? I wonder if the author even knows the difference. Probably not. Pathetic.


    ...it's likely each .NET language will eventually "tune in" to a particular type of application development

    -->Where is this coming from? What proof does the author have in order to make a claim such as this? Did i say pathetic yet?



    For those who know PHP and its limitations, you may be amused by this .NET FAQ -- sound familiar?

    -->How does deterministic destruction play along with OOP? Does the author even understand with it is? Doubt it.


    What is significantly different is "Language.NET" will force you into an object oriented approach from the start, while PHP won't.

    -->Whats so bad about having skilled people coding instead of people like this author? In fact this whole article suggest that the author loves to just simply hack things together (this article proves that fact).


    Microsoft has a long way to go with security before it will be able to unleash that on the Internet -- and even when that time comes, browsers and content delivery may be sufficiently advanced to make it irrelevant.

    --> Do your research.


    its down-to-earth approach to problem solving

    -->This is an advantage for the framework/language? Or does it have to do with the human factor?

    its active and inspired community,

    -->.NET has a very large and growing community.


    the freedom you have as a developer, both in terms of price and choice of code architecture, to do with PHP as you please.

    -->.net hosting solutions will offer a variety of solutions for their clients, just as PHP has. That is not an advantage.


    Language.NET really only amounts to ASP version 4.0 (with an option of writing in C++ style C#).

    --> This has to be one of the most uneducated statements ive heard in a long time.


    "Do I want to be forced into a sharp learning curve, a particular coding style and particular strategies for Web development?"

    --> How is having support for 23+ languages forcing anyone into a particular style/strategy, not to mention a sharp learning curve?


    "Do I feel like paying more for hosting?"

    -->Documentation? Proof?



    I do highly recommend that the next time this author decides to compare two technologies he actually does some research.

    Rob Chartier
    rchartierh at aspfree dot com

  6. #131
    Anonymous
    SitePoint Community Guest
    Yes, you are bound by the Microsoft EULA even if you don't read it. It's not Microsoft's fault if you don't read the contract you're buying into.

  7. #132
    Anonymous
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    .NET vs. PHP? Give me a break. That's an apples to oranges comparison.

    .NET vs. J2EE, ASP.NET vs. JSP, and perhaps ASP.NET (or JSP) vs. PHP are valid. But comparing ".NET" to PHP is stupid.

    .NET is an enterprise solutions platform and philosophy, much like J2EE. PHP is quick and dirty scripting language/HTML pre-processor, albeit a very handy one. They both have their place, and usually those palces are leagues apart, even if you can attempt to use one to do the others job.

  8. #133
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Remember, this article is nearly 2 years old. At the time the PHP community looked at .NET as MS's way to scare the crap out of everyone with a bunch of "marketing" and that it had no real substance at all. Not fast, not functional, no place on the web.

    Things have changed just a little bit. Heck, at the time PHP'ers were saying that in 3-5 years there'd be no need for anything but PHP.

    Things change
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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  9. #134
    Anonymous
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    This article is the typical PHP/open-source fan kind of thing. Insted of setting first *what* is going to be compared in both technologies, the author jumps in and out of different issues, sometimes taking a serious developer approach and sometimes taking the "php has made a lot of people start coding" position.

    I do think PHP is great, and open source as a whole is good. But you have to be more serious. PHP and ASP.NET are useful for something bigger than your website composed of "a few scripts among your HTML".

    And when you have to build something escalable, manageable, then I think .NET approach is better. More robust application design, object oriented and event-driven coding, and things like that. Trying to do something similar with the incredibly large number of PHP functions modifying untyped variables is hell.

    My two cents...

  10. #135
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    This article is the typical PHP/open-source fan kind of thing. Insted of setting first *what* is going to be compared in both technologies, the author jumps in and out of different issues, sometimes taking a serious developer approach and sometimes taking the "php has made a lot of people start coding" position.
    If you're interested in a somewhat regretful reflection on this article, try here. The main point, which I guess the article doesn't make clear, was it was written purely in context with discussions "raging" on these forums, not long after .NET became big news. The main thrust was some kind of "reality check" for PHP in the light of .NET as opposed to saying PHP is better technology.

    As Jeremy point out, think we can all say, including myself, that we're somewhat the wiser.

    That said I still believe that .NET does not deliver a significant advantage over PHP for web apps. ASP.NET, as component model for templating web pages, is a very clever idea but it's hamstringed by static typing, among other things. The "problem" is highlighted here. Believe MS are working on resolving CLR issues hampering a decent dynamically typed language for .NET and when that happens, that's good news.

    And when you have to build something scalable, manageable, then I think .NET approach is better. More robust application design, object oriented and event-driven coding, and things like that. Trying to do something similar with the incredibly large number of PHP functions modifying untyped variables is hell.
    Only if you write PHP applications that way. Here for people who agree with you. As to event driven coding, there's an interesting point here (when it stops throwing exceptions) how attempting to bring desktop GUI design to web apps is barking up the wrong tree.

  11. #136
    Anonymous
    SitePoint Community Guest
    "Also, have a look at the results of this job search -- not bad."

    Do that same search with C# as the keyword.. about 7x as many postings.

  12. #137
    SitePoint Member Rodent's Avatar
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    Vincent's right...

    I've been programming in all the major languages for over 20 years and PHP is still fairly amateurish, (although they try really hard).

    I really like PHP... but I don't take it seriously, (yet).

    Keith.

  13. #138
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    .. been programming in all the major languages for over 20 years and PHP is still fairly amateurish,
    I can only assume you mean programming for 20years but asleep for the last 2-3 of them ?

  14. #139
    Anonymous
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    I found this article too bias in php and agree that the author hasn't really given ASP.NET a chance. He has turned it into a Microsoft vs Open Source debate as opposed to the real pros and cos. I've been using ASP.NET for a while now and realise for business it saves a lot of time in development and especially ongoing maintenance. PHP code is a mess and anyone trying to pickup where a PHP programmer left off will know this first hand. ASP.NET fixes this, especially using Visual Studio .NET. Also I hate the arguement about ASP.NET hosting dearer, if you work out the cost difference between ASP.NET hosting and PHP on a wholesale cost (taking into account the MS liceneses etc) divide this between how many sites will run on the server, you are really only talking a couple of dollars per year per site. What's the big deal!

  15. #140
    SitePoint Guru toasti's Avatar
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    I found this article too bias in php and agree that the author hasn't really given ASP.NET a chance. He has turned it into a Microsoft vs Open Source debate as opposed to the real pros and cos. I've been using ASP.NET for a while now and realise for business it saves a lot of time in development and especially ongoing maintenance. PHP code is a mess and anyone trying to pickup where a PHP programmer left off will know this first hand. ASP.NET fixes this, especially using Visual Studio .NET. Also I hate the arguement about ASP.NET hosting dearer, if you work out the cost difference between ASP.NET hosting and PHP on a wholesale cost (taking into account the MS liceneses etc) divide this between how many sites will run on the server, you are really only talking a couple of dollars per year per site. What's the big deal!
    I dont really think you got the point. the article wasnt meant to say PHP is by far the better, but rather that PHP was still a viable option in the face of [ASP].NET. It was part of a dual article release, (the other being 6 reasons why .NET is great (or something)), so you cant really blame if for having a certain level of bias...

    anyway. There's lots of talk here about how PHP isnt / cant be used in the enterprise ( and i know it has come a long way since most of the posts in this article where writtrn), but there are a lot of big sites which run on php (yahoo apparently invested a lot of time in php), and interestingly, safari.com (which hosts onjava.com) is apparently also done in php(?). So i was just wondering if this is still the case? and what exactly is an example of an enterprise web application?

    Personally i quite like Zend's analogy of php as: "the glue that ties together functionality from the diverse systems to address pressing business needs" and think this is quite relevent with web services now improving interop so much

    I also think that php is a pretty rapid development programming language (i dare say comparitive to .NET(?))

    So...has anyone got some good examples of enterprise web applications?

    Do thinks like vbulletin, phpbb, php-nuke, phpmyadmin etc. count? because they been around for years and are developed in PHP...

  16. #141
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    This thread is something like 2 years old. The post to which you responded is nearly 1 year old.

    Give. It. Up.

    Update: Actually, it's almost 3 flipping years old.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  17. #142
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    Well, you started it, didn't you? You must have ran out of favourable arguments, as we all know that PHP is far, far better than what Dot Net is

  18. #143
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    .NET is the defacto standard for enterprise development outside of the Java world. More corporate sites are done in .NET than every other language combined. Amazing what 3 years'll do, eh?
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  19. #144
    SitePoint Guru toasti's Avatar
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    hey i know you must be sick to death of this topic by now. i am just a little confused as to what everyone means by enterprise, and was hoping some people could give some good examples, and this looked like a good place to ask...

    Update: Actually, it's almost 3 flipping years old.
    last post was in 2004 (ie: last year)..

  20. #145
    SitePoint Guru toasti's Avatar
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    last post was in 2004 (ie: last year)..
    oh. hang on. i see you mentioned that...

    my bad. just didnt feel like starting up a whole new post, and was wondering about the question above as i read this one...

  21. #146
    SitePoint Addict mx2k's Avatar
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    enterprise is one of those relative words that mean different things to different people that programmers often throw around to make things sound more complicated than need be. But it usually refers to a software that is scalable, robust, not fragile, or prone to a great number of bugs

    most corporations use dot net probably because they are already tied into the windows platform by contract or their programmer(s) has/have been brainwashed into one way of thinking.

    i say use what best fits your needs. the reason that we have so many languages is because there is no superior language or platform, despite what MS would like for you to believe.

    oop is sometimes overkill for simple tasks when dealing with web design. also i find the dot net web application design enviroment to be buggy and troublesome at times. The cache tends to cause issues and must be cleared every so often, which can get annoying. however, i do see that dot net has a lot of very powerful tools for developers that php lacks, but i hope that will change within the next year or so.

    also the fact so many people have their own projects, which is a good thing sometimes because it gives more choices, but the downfall is, that in some instances, this can take away the power of the community in the area of "enterprise" development, due to the lack of a corporate (corporate as in a bigger body of people) commitment by the community to a few key projects that would push php a head as a whole.

    my biggest problem with most projects in php (and dot net for that matter) is poor documentation and terrible coding pratices and total lack of flexibility in some instances. alot of projects are time consuming to implement and sometimes its easier just to write you own.

  22. #147
    Currently Occupied; Till Sunda Andrew-J2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    More corporate sites are done in .NET than every other language combined. Amazing what 3 years'll do, eh?
    Hi Jeremy,

    Just curious whether there are some actual figures that prove this, as today a number of clients won't touch .NET still?

  23. #148
    SitePoint Guru toasti's Avatar
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    ok. this might sound strange, but i am actually looking for (good) critisisms of PHP (in particualr 5). While a lot of very valid points are raised on these forums, I am looking for white papers or academic papers regarding these points (and i cant for the life of me find any - maybe im blind) - im trying to do a literature review - i've got the pro PHP stuff (Harry is very good at providing nice pro-PHP articles ), and i know (many) of the arguements against it, but am looking for valid (official) sources of such arguments.

    I remember reading a thread a while back in which M. Johansson raises some very good points, in particular along the lines of:

    1.) lack of standards regarding design patterns - although there are many (good) design patterns, there is not one (or even many) industry accepted 'default'. for example while ASP.NET has code behind with web forms and server components; with PHP there are a number different design frameworks (ie: PEAR,PHP,Smarty,MySQL or no PEAR, or no templating..or this templating engine or that on, or the one i made myself etc.). Although you can argue this both ways (increased flexibilty as well as the nice modularity of PHP), this does mean that accross projects and teams there are differing standards of developement being used.

    lack of a proper class library. I know PHP has PEAR. but PEAR doesnt really stand up to something like the .NET class library, which (some might say) doesnt stand up to the Java class library... (at the same time, i do find that mostcases, PEAR has everything you need, and you can actually do things with less code in PHP cause its functions tend to be more specialised (which voostind described as a shortcoming of the PEAR library as a framework for PHP earlier in this thread)

    The argument about PHP being a looser language also seems to hold some water, as it allows programmers to get away with worse coding. although, again, im not saying PHP code has to be bad, im saying it can be bad. it seems PHP shifts a lot of the responsibility onto the programmer (not the compiler / interpreter). *looser typing* ...which can be an advantage too, i know.

    Help would be appreciated

    Also, just because im interested, could people post urls to sites/applications which they believe are 'enterprise'? in any language..


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