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  1. #201
    SitePoint Zealot jazz's Avatar
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    Cost for .NET including database...$0
    Could you explain the database part please
    I didn't know Microsoft was giving away databases too... sounds almost to good to be true.
    The reward of a thing well done, is to have done it.

    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

  2. #202
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    Originally posted by jazz

    Could you explain the database part please
    I didn't know Microsoft was giving away databases too... sounds almost to good to be true.
    If you download the .net framework you get MSDE with it which is a restricted (connection limit etc) version of SQLServer, but it's still fully functional so you can develop your applications on MSDE and then deploy them on SQLserver.

  3. #203
    .NET inside archigamer's Avatar
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    yes and the sqlserver cost a fortune if you are hositng yourself or 44 dollars or so with shared hosting.
    Web Finesse Studios
    Professional, business oriented web hosting and development.

  4. #204
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Jeremy Jeremy Jeremy. Dear oh dear oh dear.

    1. Speed
    It was already proven .NET was faster
    .NET: 1
    PHP: 0
    Actually it's never been proved (don't worry - I'm working on that part ) and with a PHP accelerator I'm more than willing to bet that .NET gets dusted as usual. So at the very worst;

    PHP: 0.5
    .NET: 1

    2. Multi Lingual
    Sorry, but it's definitely a strength. How many times have you found developers who find PHP syntax odd? That doesn't happen in .NET. PHP guys are comfy, VB guys are comfy, Java guys are comfy, Python guys are comfy.
    .NET: 1 (or 1 for each language...)
    PHP: 0
    Wrong! You can put Java inside a PHP script or you can run PHP inside Java servlets. There's a Python extensions coming and as the syntax point, a big part of PHPs success is everyone loves the syntax. Only those with a VB background get nervous using it (plus a few freaks you'll find in these forums). As to this loose / strong typing business - that's a matter of preference nothing more - I'd personally say it's more work to have a strongly typed language.

    So again, at the worst;

    PHP 0.5
    .NET 1


    4. Part of .NET
    Of course it's a point. The framework is incredibly strong, fully featured and does a multitude of things in and of itself that I see in the PHP forums as being massive problems.
    .NET: 1
    PHP: 0
    Personally I find this point stupid. Is .NET part of PHP? No it isn't - zero to .NET and 1 to PHP. What is important though is PHP can access .NET modules(http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.dotnet.php) as it could with COM+, it's also able to mix a little with Java and as this link demonstrates, the time is approaching where you'll be able to write PHP code that runs in .NET. Methinks that's

    PHP: 1
    .NET 0.5

    Given the stupidity of this point.

    5. Cost of development
    Cost for .NET including database, sold text editor, environment and multiplicity of tools: 0$
    Cost in PHP: 25$ (text editor, that doesn't count the cost of components to do what .NET does, we'll let each langauge stand on it's own)

    .NET 1
    PHP 0
    Rubbish! You can choose whatever editor you like (BTW - how thinks Dreamweaver is comparable to Visual Studio? PHP can be written with Dreamweaver). On Windows you'll find plenty of free IDEs and on linux, you have tools like emacs that can put any Windows editor to utter shame.

    Also, the .NET "free tools" are not production level. For PHP I can header over to http://www.firepages.com.au for example and get the complete PHP/MySQL/Apache environment and use it to mirror my production environment. That means no nasty discoveries and less code modification when you move to the live environment. Get "productive" with .NET and you're spending big cash. Things like that free database in WebMatrix - writing code for that is not the same as writing for SQLServer - expect surprises.

    Also PHP hosting is typically at least 50% cheaper than .NET hosting.

    PHP: 1
    .NET: 0


    6. Cross Platform
    Did you really read this thread? PHP is more cross-platform, but .NET is inherently cross-platform, even if it hasn't been implemented yet.
    .NET: .5
    PHP: 1
    Nope sorry. NULL points for .NET. It's not implemented and even if (when) it is, it's likely to be another Chillisoft, with MS playing cat and mouse to make sure their latest features don't run on Linux. PHP runs on any platform to enterprise level now. It's been tried and tested and is very well supported.

    PHP: 1
    .NET: 0

    Overall that makes;

    PHP: 4
    .NET: 2.5


    And that's just comparing the two on your terms.

  5. #205
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    Originally posted by archigamer
    yes and the sqlserver cost a fortune if you are hositng yourself or 44 dollars or so with shared hosting.
    I think it has already been establised PHP hosting on the whole is cheaper, but assuming the client is paying the costs, the developer can easily deveolop in .NET for free with MSDE. (or mysql for that matter).

  6. #206
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    Originally posted by HarryF

    Wrong! You can put Java inside a PHP script or you can run PHP inside Java servlets. There's a Python extensions coming and as the syntax point, a big part of PHPs success is everyone loves the syntax. Only those with a VB background get nervous using it (plus a few freaks you'll find in these forums). As to this loose / strong typing business - that's a matter of preference nothing more - I'd personally say it's more work to have a strongly typed language.
    Where do you get the idea everyone loves the PHP syntax? If someone comes from C/C++ I could see why they would like the PHP syntax, but say they are used to Java, many would prefer the dot notation to pointers for example.

  7. #207
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Where do you get the idea everyone loves the PHP syntax?
    Because PHP is the most popular server side scripting language on the Internet. Many of those it's recruited aren't C/C++ or Java developers but people from entirely different backgrounds.

    But hey, if you want dots instead of arrows, head to http://www.gravitonic.com/software/php/ - Andrei has a PHP patch (at the bottom) to do just that.

  8. #208
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    Okay I assume you mean many people are recruited from non-programming backgrounds, in my opinion if you show someone a page of perl, one of PHP, one of VB to someone who has never programmed and ask which one makes the most sense they will say the VB, because it is closest to English, thus despite the fact I and most others hate it, the majority who have never programmed will pick it as their prefered syntax.

    The fact PHP is popular is hardly an argument that people prefer it's syntax, it might be an argument that it's easier to learn and the hostings cheap.

    Thanks for the link I must have my dots.
    Last edited by neil100; Sep 18, 2002 at 15:29.

  9. #209
    SitePoint Guru sowen's Avatar
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    Things like that free database in WebMatrix - writing code for that is not the same as writing for SQLServer - expect surprises.
    Nope, sorry Harry your wrong. Yes, MSDE is a hobbled MS-SQL Server, it has a connection limit and thats it. You can develop with MSDE and be assured that your app will not break when you deploy to a production environment (MS-SQL)

  10. #210
    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Majglow
    Also,

    If I make a typo in a variable name with PHP somewhere in my code, the code will run but it won't work and I have to hunt through the code trying to find the error. With C# if there is a typo it tells me at exactly which line it is at.
    Turn on error reporting, either in php.ini or via an .htaccess . Yes, it's not there by default. Probably will be 'on' by default someday and everyone will ***** about it.
    Michael Kimsal
    =============================
    groovymag.com - for groovy/grails developers
    jsmag.com - for javascript developers

  11. #211
    SitePoint Zealot jazz's Avatar
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    (What are we back in the PHP Forum now ?)

    That part about the database is pretty good. (Although I'm sure the only reason Microsoft has started giving all of these products away is because of the open source movement)


    Maybe two other points somebody could enlighten me on:

    1. Hardware requirements:
    ASP.NET vs. PHP?

    According to MSDN .NET needs an minimum of 128MB of RAM and either Windows 2000 or Windows XP.

    Now if I just use my personal experience, any of the *BSD's with a standard Apache/MySQL/PHP (yes even X) servers running will run a whole lot faster than anything Windows 2000 runs. Shouldn't that count towards both price and performance. Because if I had a simple 1.3Ghz dedicated server with 256 RAM under heavy load wouldn't the Windows .NET system start slowing earlier than the *BSD/Linux system? Requiring you to make a hardware upgrade earlier.

    2. Security and Stability:
    .NET framework vs. (L/*BSD)AMP
    Execessive downtime due to viruses or system crashes could cost you a fortune depending on what your web site is selling or doing.

    p.s.
    One more thing...I noticed that it says a .NET client needs to be running "...Microsoft® Internet Explorer 5.01 or later and Microsoft® Windows® Installer 2.0 or later are also required."

    That doesn't make it very cross platform? Or am I misunderstanding something?
    Last edited by jazz; Sep 18, 2002 at 19:54.
    The reward of a thing well done, is to have done it.

    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

  12. #212
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HarryF
    Wrong! You can put Java inside a PHP script or you can run PHP inside Java servlets. There's a Python extensions coming and as the syntax point, a big part of PHPs success is everyone loves the syntax. Only those with a VB background get nervous using it (plus a few freaks you'll find in these forums). As to this loose / strong typing business - that's a matter of preference nothing more - I'd personally say it's more work to have a strongly typed language.
    Yes, PHP can unelegantly mate with Java, and Python is a work in progress (like much concerning PHP). This does simply not compare to the language neutrality of .NET. Please accept the advantages of ASP.NET, just like we accept the advantages of PHP, or we will not be able to continue this debate.

    Personally I find this point stupid. Is .NET part of PHP? No it isn't - zero to .NET and 1 to PHP. What is important though is PHP can access .NET modules(http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.dotnet.php) as it could with COM+, it's also able to mix a little with Java and as this link demonstrates, the time is approaching where you'll be able to write PHP code that runs in .NET.
    You can shout "unfair" and "stupid" about the comparision between PHP and the Framework all you want but the fact remains that it's very convinient, powerful and that I can start developing real windows applications in the same way I develop ASP.NET. The learning curve is close to zero. And the class library is, as established earlier, much better than anything availiable for PHP.

    Things like that free database in WebMatrix - writing code for that is not the same as writing for SQLServer - expect surprises.
    Stop posting bltant untruths.

    Nope sorry. NULL points for .NET. It's not implemented and even if (when) it is, it's likely to be another Chillisoft, with MS playing cat and mouse to make sure their latest features don't run on Linux. PHP runs on any platform to enterprise level now. It's been tried and tested and is very well supported.
    Yes, the Linux implementation of the framework will be crap because we all know Ximian is such a bad company with bad coders that produces so bad products.

    And yes, PHP CAN do enterprise development. .NET is still better suited.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  13. #213
    Node mutilating coot timnz's Avatar
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    If I ever need to give anyone an example of the old phrase: like comparing an apple with a pear, this thread is sooo gonna be the place I'm going to point them to.

    So they're both fruit, but they have different shapes. Some people like the more spherical shape of an apple, (cos it is better for rolling), and others like the stretched out end of a pear (cos it is better for... something anyway), and then some people like the bruise to be on the back, and some people would prefer the bruise on the front, but their preference for these are based on things like, whether they are looking at the fruit from the back or the front.

    But that doesn't mean you can't at least try to compare...
    Oh no! the coots are eating my nodes!

  14. #214
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by timnz
    If I ever need to give anyone an example of the old phrase: like comparing an apple with a pear, this thread is sooo gonna be the place I'm going to point them to.

    So they're both fruit, but they have different shapes. Some people like the more spherical shape of an apple, (cos it is better for rolling), and others like the stretched out end of a pear (cos it is better for... something anyway), and then some people like the bruise to be on the back, and some people would prefer the bruise on the front, but their preference for these are based on things like, whether they are looking at the fruit from the back or the front.

    But that doesn't mean you can't at least try to compare...
    While the comparison in itself is futile, its also very educational!
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  15. #215
    ********* Genius Mike's Avatar
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    Mattias- I was just wondering: Was there a single one function/aspect/something of .NET that made you convert? I've been dealing with PHP for a few months now, and although I enjoy it very much, the more I read about .NET, the better it sounds. Would someone with my experience (beginner PHP, some JavaScript, beginner VBasic) be able to pick up .NET fast enough to even consider learning?

    You make some good points regarding .NET, kudos to you.
    I'd like to be proficient in PHP, but also I'd like to learn the more flexible language (Flexible as in being able to build many types of apps for many platforms, but also having transferable skills for other technologies)

    BTW- every knight needs a squire
    Mike
    It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.

  16. #216
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by naramation
    Mattias- I was just wondering: Was there a single one function/aspect/something of .NET that made you convert? I've been dealing with PHP for a few months now, and although I enjoy it very much, the more I read about .NET, the better it sounds. Would someone with my experience (beginner PHP, some JavaScript, beginner VBasic) be able to pick up .NET fast enough to even consider learning?

    You make some good points regarding .NET, kudos to you.
    I'd like to be proficient in PHP, but also I'd like to learn the more flexible language (Flexible as in being able to build many types of apps for many platforms, but also having transferable skills for other technologies)

    BTW- every knight needs a squire
    I love your new title. Feel free to add me to ICQ, and I'll assist you as well I can this evening. (I'm at school now)

    The reason that made me "switch" was the web forms framework. It's incredibly powerful, and allows you to do some stuff VERY fast. It's hard to describe how it works, so I'll show it instead:

    Code:
    <html><body><head>
    <script language="C#" runat=server>
      void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e) {
        if (!Page.IsPostBack) {
          string[] guitarMakers = {"Gibson", "Fender", "Paul Reed Smith", "Hamer"};
          SelectMe.DataSource = guitarMakers;
          ListBoxSelect.DataSource = guitarMakers;
          RadioButtonSelect.DataSource = guitarMakers;
          DataBind();
        }
      }
    </script></head>
    <body>
    
    <form runat=server>
    
      ListBox Selection: </br>
      <asp:ListBox id="ListBoxSelect" runat=server /> 
      </br> </br>
      
      Radio Button Selection: </br>
      <asp:RadioButtonList id="RadioButtonSelect" runat=server /> </br>
    
      Plain old selection: </br>
      <Select id="SelectMe" runat=server /> 
    
    </form>
    
    </body> </html>
    Produces this:

    Viola! Notice especially the bottom selectionbox - all I do is to give it a runat="server" attribute, and feed it a datasource:

    SelectMe.DataSource = guitarMakers;

    ... and bind it:

    DataBind();

    And I'm done. The only editing of the HTML that I do is adding runat="server" to it. That is very nice spearation of HTML and code. Another nice thing is that the selectbox can be lots of stuff, like the arrays of radiobuttons, listbox, or an item template. The source of data does not have to be an array, but can also be an ArrayList, HashTable, Queue, SortedList, Stack, StringCollection, DataView, DataTable, DataSet, SqlDataReader or OleDbDataReader.

    Let me demonstrate how this works with item templates (Called the DataList):

    Code:
    <html>
    
    <script language="C#" runat="server">
    
        void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e) {
    
            SqlConnection myConnection = 
              new SqlConnection("server=(local)\\NetSDK;database=pubs;Trusted_Connection=yes");
            SqlDataAdapter myCommand =
              new SqlDataAdapter("select * from Titles", myConnection);
    
            DataSet ds = new DataSet();
            myCommand.Fill(ds, "Titles");
    
            MyDataList.DataSource = ds.Tables["Titles"].DefaultView;
            MyDataList.DataBind();
        }
    
    </script>
    
    <body>
    
    <ASP:DataList id="MyDataList" RepeatColumns="2" runat="server">
    
          <ItemTemplate>
    
            <table cellpadding=10 style="font: 10pt verdana">
              <tr>
                <td width=1 bgcolor="BD8672"/>
    
                <td valign="top">
                  <img align="top" 
    src="/quickstart/aspplus/images/title-<%# Container.DataItem("title") %>.gif" >
                </td>
    
                <td valign="top">
    
                  <b>Title: </b<%# Container.DataItem("title") %><br>
                  <b>Category: </b><%# Container.DataItem("C
    category") %><br>
                  <b>Publisher ID: </b><%# Container.DataItem("pubID") %><br>
                  <b>Price: </b><%# DataBinder.Eval(Container.DataItem, "price", "$ {0}") %>
    
                  <p>
    
                  <a href='<%# DataBinder.Eval(Container.DataItem, "title_id", "purchase.aspx?titleid={0}") %>' >
                    <img border="0" src="/quickstart/aspplus/images/purchase_book.gif" >
                  </a>
    
                </td>
              </tr>
            </table>
    
          </ItemTemplate>
    
      </ASP:DataList>
    
    </body>
    </html>
    This is what it looks like when ran.


    Now, look that the first four lines of the Page_Load section. (Page load is the event hander that gets called when the page loads) Those lines connects to the SQL database, creates a so called DataSet and fills the DataSet using the the SQL query results.

    Now, line 5 and 6...

    MyDataList.DataSource = ds.Tables["Titles"].DefaultView;
    DataBind();

    .. does exactly the same thing as the line we used to populate the selectbox in the earlier example:

    SelectMe.DataSource = guitarMakers;
    DataBind();

    ... the only difference is that we use a DataList instead of a Select box, and a DataSet instead of an array of guitarMakers. This is just a small demonstration of what the Web Forms can do - there are lots of other very convinient stuff.

    Learning ASP.NET in itself is not very hard - it's learning C# that's tricky. Getting your head around Object Orientation concepts, strong types and all that stuff is very overwhelming at first, since it's so much more complex that PHP is. I'm frankly still a bit confused. "Beginning C#" from Wrox only got me even more confused. Kevin Yanks article series got me started with it, and he has recommended me a book on it - "Programming C#". It should be arriving today - I'll tell you how it is.

    Kevins articles is a VERY good place to start:
    Getting Started with ASP.NET
    Getting Started with ASP.NET
    Object Oriented C# for ASP.NET Developers
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Sep 18, 2002 at 23:28.
    Mattias Johansson
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  17. #217
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by naramation
    You make some good points regarding .NET, kudos to you.
    Indeed he does.

    Originally posted by naramation
    ...(Flexible as in being able to build many types of apps for many platforms...
    I'll correct your typo

    "Flexible as in being able to build many types of apps for Windows".


    Also, can Jeremy or Mattias help me out on this one. I spent a good 30 mins last night searching for information about a binary installer for the .NET framework to install on my (and other) machine. Any ideas where I can get it? And what are the minimal hardware/os requirements?

  18. #218
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Personally I find this point stupid. Is .NET part of PHP? No it isn't - zero to .NET and 1 to PHP. What is important though is PHP can access .NET modules(http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.dotnet.php) as it could with COM+, it's also able to mix a little with Java and as this link demonstrates, the time is approaching where you'll be able to write PHP code that runs in .NET.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can shout "unfair" and "stupid" about the comparision between PHP and the Framework all you want but the fact remains that it's very convinient, powerful and that I can start developing real windows applications in the same way I develop ASP.NET. The learning curve is close to zero. And the class library is, as established earlier, much better than anything availiable for PHP.
    If the point had been something like ASP.NET comes with a library etc. then I'd have been more reasonable. But other frameworks exist. Should we have said "Is part of J2EE" - that would have been no points to either language. And we should remember PHP also has frameworks, for example: http://developer.ez.no/doc/view/structure .


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Things like that free database in WebMatrix - writing code for that is not the same as writing for SQLServer - expect surprises.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Stop posting bltant untruths.
    Head to: http://www.fawcette.com/dotnetmag/20..._4/default.asp and find some blatant untruths such as;

    No support for full-text indexing. Microsoft doesn't advertise this missing MSDE 2000 feature in the technical information page. I didn't discover MSDE 2000's lack of full-text indexing until I decided to add a search feature to my XML Web services site. This omission proves you can't get everything you want for nothing.
    Expect surprises!. I've worked in IT long enough to spot trouble before it happens and where Microsoft is concerned, as Jeremy himself advises: be very wary. Also, expect further problems if you're using the Matrix Web Server. That's not fear and loathing that's good sense.

    The point is with PHP/Apache/MySQL for me personally, I can run exactly the same versions on my own PC as runs on a web server. I know exactly the environment my code will run in and while I'm doing it, I get to learn about the production level software I'll be using.

    And Finally
    Yes, PHP can unelegantly mate with Java, and Python is a work in progress (like much concerning PHP). This does simply not compare to the language neutrality of .NET. Please accept the advantages of ASP.NET, just like we accept the advantages of PHP, or we will not be able to continue this debate.
    "Unelegantly mate" - nice one. Try this (http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/marknold20001221.php3);

    The Java extension is an extremely exciting tool. By learning how to use this module, you can extend PHP by the power of all available Java classes.
    The thing is, running Java within a PHP script, you're running real Java, not J# some other new language with no access to the Java libraries. The same applies with C# - it's not real C++ but should you so desire, you could compile your C++ code to run with the PHP engine - no need to re-invent any wheels.

    But this subject is massively underestimated. I repeat: PHP can access all the Java libraries. Not just that, I can also access Java Beans, meaning you could use PHP in w J2EE environment to access Session and Entity Beans.

    Now we already know PHP can load .NET modules. So what are we actually saying here? Suppose you work in a company where some guys over here are building J2EE apps and some more guys over there are building .NET. Your manager says - "Dammit - we need to integrate all these apps into a single web site but now we've got a big mess.". "No problem you say. Just give me a server with PHP/Apache installed and I'll tie the lot together".

    So PHP is not just cross platform and able to run under all the big web servers - it has native access to both .NET and J2EE - no need for SOAP etc. This makes PHP the great integrator.

    Given the success of both Apache and PHP, this is exactly what I mean when I'm talking about how a fight between J2EE and .NET will do nothing but put PHP in a stronger position. My prediction is PHP will become the default mechanism for deploying web applications. In N-Tier terms, PHP will be the way to deliver the top presentation layers, tieing together data from many different sources into a unified interface.

    Anyway, for anyone interested, another tutorial on using PHP with Java can be found at: http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/P...ava/page1.html

    PS: Another tutorial on the practicalities of interfacing PHP and Java: http://zez.org/article/articleprint/26/
    Last edited by HarryF; Sep 19, 2002 at 01:44.

  19. #219
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    Originally posted by HarryF

    The point is with PHP/Apache/MySQL for me personally, I can run exactly the same versions on my own PC as runs on a web server. I know exactly the environment my code will run in and while I'm doing it, I get to learn about the production level software I'll be using.
    Is MySQL the only database that anyone developing with PHP ever uses? Does no one ever use Oracle for instance or for that matter MS-SQL, do no PHP sites require transactions, foreign keys, triggers, stored procedures etc?

    Originally posted by HarryF

    The thing is, running Java within a PHP script, you're running real Java, not J# some other new language with no access to the Java libraries. The same applies with C# - it's not real C++ but should you so desire, you could compile your C++ code to run with the PHP engine - no need to re-invent any wheels.
    Being able to access Java classes is not the same thing as being able to write .net in your choosen language. Even though you can use the Java ext you still have to code parts in PHP, which is not the same as being able to code the entire application in your prefered language, plus with PHP you have the option of Python or Java, not quite the same as the large and quickly increasing choice you have under .net.

    C# is not microsofts version of C or C++ if someone likes C++ then they can write .net in C++.net, C# is very similar to java and is targeted at Java developers as opposed to C++ ones, I have absolutely no idea why they are even bothering with J#, originally they were going to drop it, but seem to have some sort of mental lapse and decided we need it aswell as C#.

    Now we already know PHP can load .NET modules. So what are we actually saying here? Suppose you work in a company where some guys over here are building J2EE apps and some more guys over there are building .NET. Your manager says - "Dammit - we need to integrate all these apps into a single web site but now we've got a big mess.". "No problem you say. Just give me a server with PHP/Apache installed and I'll tie the lot together".

    So PHP is not just cross platform and able to run under all the big web servers - it has native access to both .NET and J2EE - no need for SOAP etc. This makes PHP the great integrator.

    Given the success of both Apache and PHP, this is exactly what I mean when I'm talking about how a fight between J2EE and .NET will do nothing but put PHP in a stronger position. My prediction is PHP will become the default mechanism for deploying web applications. In N-Tier terms, PHP will be the way to deliver the top presentation layers, tieing together data from many different sources into a unified interface.
    Why would a company want to add PHP to the mix when they could use either .NET or J2EE for the frontend and access applications written in the other language with soap, what advantage does using PHP as opposed to SOAP give?
    Last edited by neil100; Sep 19, 2002 at 03:15.

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    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HarryF
    If the point had been something like ASP.NET comes with a library etc. then I'd have been more reasonable.
    ASP.NET IS a library.

    But other frameworks exist. Should we have said "Is part of J2EE" - that would have been no points to either language.
    Hmmm - JSP is part of the Java Platform/framework. I think that's a plus in the book of JSP.

    And we should remember PHP also has frameworks, for example: http://developer.ez.no/doc/view/structure .
    Yep. Ezpublish is a plus for PHP, even though it's very slow.

    No support for full-text indexing. Microsoft doesn't advertise this missing MSDE 2000 feature in the technical information page. I didn't discover MSDE 2000's lack of full-text indexing until I decided to add a search feature to my XML Web services site. This omission proves you can't get everything you want for nothing.
    Euuurrgggh. That's a really, really stupid stupid move from Microsoft - I stand corrected, and I'm sorry. I need a little clarification, though, as I'm quite unfamiliar with databases - does indexing features really affect the code you write for the database - aren't those just for performance?

    Expect surprises!. I've worked in IT long enough to spot trouble before it happens and where Microsoft is concerned, as Jeremy himself advises: be very wary. Also, expect further problems if you're using the Matrix Web Server. That's not fear and loathing that's good sense.
    Cassini, the free, incredibly small and Open Source web server that comes with Web Matrix, is targeted towards new ASP.NET users that wish to get their feet wet, or just people who don't have XP Pro/Win2000.

    The point is with PHP/Apache/MySQL for me personally, I can run exactly the same versions on my own PC as runs on a web server. I know exactly the environment my code will run in and while I'm doing it, I get to learn about the production level software I'll be using.
    Yes, we have established cross-platform as an advantage of PHP.

    The thing is, running Java within a PHP script, you're running real Java, not J# some other new language with no access to the Java libraries. The same applies with C# - it's not real C++ but should you so desire, you could compile your C++ code to run with the PHP engine - no need to re-invent any wheels.
    Methinks that's unelegant compared to .NET, which compiles it all into one. While I can see the advantage of running "real" Java, there is also the disadvantage that running several different language platforms and using several different class libraries can become quite messy.

    Now we already know PHP can load .NET modules. So what are we actually saying here? Suppose you work in a company where some guys over here are building J2EE apps and some more guys over there are building .NET. Your manager says - "Dammit - we need to integrate all these apps into a single web site but now we've got a big mess.". "No problem you say. Just give me a server with PHP/Apache installed and I'll tie the lot together".

    So PHP is not just cross platform and able to run under all the big web servers - it has native access to both .NET and J2EE - no need for SOAP etc. This makes PHP the great integrator.
    While this would be very cool and convinient, I fail to see how putting up a completely new server, using yet another environment, and coding a specific software/script for intergration is more efficient that simply using SOAP etc.

    Given the success of both Apache and PHP, this is exactly what I mean when I'm talking about how a fight between J2EE and .NET will do nothing but put PHP in a stronger position. My prediction is PHP will become the default mechanism for deploying web applications. In N-Tier terms, PHP will be the way to deliver the top presentation layers, tieing together data from many different sources into a unified interface.
    Or you could just use Web Forms. Or Struts, for that matter.
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    It seems back in the real world companies are using web services/soap to intergrate J2EE and .Net.

    Dublin, June 25, 2002 - Eontec, the global leader in the development and delivery of Enterprise Java™ Banking solutions, today announces that its extensive range of retail and corporate banking functionality can now be deployed in enterprise applications with Web services technology. As a result, Eontec’s customers will benefit from increased interoperability between J2EE and Microsoft .NET technologies and greater component reuse.
    “Eontec recognizes that a critical issue in assembling enterprise applications is interoperability,” says John Randles, chief technology officer. “Our Financial Components are designed to integrate with heterogeneous systems. Now using Web services technology Eontec can further enhance levels of interoperability, allowing banks using Microsoft .NET on the desktop to integrate these systems seamlessly with J2EE applications. Eontec’s endorsement of this technology is based on Web services enabling greater interoperability between components and legacy systems such that our clients can achieve increased return on their technology investment.”

    Eontec has successfully proven that its Financial Components are portable across UDDI, WSDL and SOAP implementations from Web services market leaders such as IBM and BEA. Eontec™ Financial Components, which are based on J2EE technology, are now provided with a WSDL definition making them available for use as Web services.
    http://www.eontec.com/newsroom/release.jsp?show=64

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    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by neil100
    Is MySQL the only database that anyone developing with PHP ever uses? Does no one ever use Oracle for instance or for that matter MS-SQL, do no PHP sites require transactions, foreign keys, triggers, stored procedures etc?
    Yes, why in the nine hells is mySQL so popular? It's fast and easy to use, but that's about it. Why is not postgres used on at least some PHP hosts? Perhaps the fact that mySQL is used so often with PHP tells us a bit about how complex the average PHP solution really is...

    Why would a company want to add PHP to the mix when they could use either .NET or J2EE for the frontend and access applications written in the other language with soap, what advantage does using PHP as opposed to SOAP give?
    Sorry I posted this at the same time as you.. I guess great minds think alike!
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    One quick point (have to go out);

    Why would a company want to add PHP to the mix when they could use either .NET or J2EE for the frontend and access applications written in the other language with soap, what advantage does using PHP as opposed to SOAP give?
    To make use of SOAP for integration, you have to build SOAP interfaces into your .NET or J2EE applications. That's fine if you wrote both are are integrating them (although Sun is grudgingly implementing SOAP so there's a questing as to how fully they'll support it in J2EE - they have their own methods like RMI).

    But if you're in an entirely seperate department in a company (e.g. the "Web" department) and your job is to build a web app on top of a J2EE and a .NET application that were either developed by other departments or obtained from a third party, using PHP you can tie them all together and deploy them on the very reliable Apache / Linux combination (which you're perhaps already using for your corporate web site).

    And looking again at what you've said;

    Why would a company want to add PHP to the mix when they could use either .NET or J2EE for the frontend
    This is the prime objective of Sun and Microsoft - they want to lock companies into their frameworks. Right now they're converging to some extend, given the "arrival" or web services. As new standards come along, that build on SOAP for example (things like web services security), you can guarantee that they'll diverge again to force propietary standards on their customers to prevent them defecting.

    This "lock in" is one of the key things that you avoid with PHP (and open source in general).

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    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    But if you're in an entirely seperate department in a company (e.g. the "Web" department) and your job is to build a web app on top of a J2EE and a .NET application that were either developed by other departments or obtained from a third party, using PHP you can tie them all together and deploy them on the very reliable Apache / Linux combination (which you're perhaps already using for your corporate web site).
    Or you could just use Web Forms.

    This is the prime objective of Sun and Microsoft - they want to lock companies into their frameworks. Right now they're converging to some extend, given the "arrival" or web services. As new standards come along, that build on SOAP for example (things like web services security), you can guarantee that they'll diverge again to force propietary standards on their customers to prevent them defecting.

    This "lock in" is one of the key things that you avoid with PHP (and open source in general).
    I don't see at all how you avoid locking yourself in by building an in-house bridge using Apache/PHP between Java and .NET over SOAP.
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Sep 19, 2002 at 04:19.
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    I'll just say this, that what HarryF said is exactly true.

    I can run exactly the same versions on my own PC as runs on a web server.
    And in most instances you can use an old PC >300Mhz to test it out. I've looked at the Microsoft site and thought I would give .NET a try but after reading all of the system and hardware requirements it seems that I don't currently have the hardware to run it. To have Win 2k + .NET + IIS + Database etc. running you need a either a fast computer or live with a very slow running system. Who cares then how fast the script executes when the system is slowed down by all of the other things?
    Ultimately that's where a lot of the opensource tools shine, they seem to use hardware resources a lot more efficiently than MS. This makes PHP both faster and cheaper compared to ASP.NET.
    The reward of a thing well done, is to have done it.

    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)


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