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  1. #176
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I'd just like to add to my post on Enterprise Development with a more specific example.

    If you were creating a Mailing List Manager for a non-enterprise system, you would probably have a basic features list something like:

    Mailing List
    - user management
    - list management
    - reporting

    Ours looks a lot more complex. A bit hard to explain, but our layers go something like:


    ____ Mailing List System < (depends on) MS Exhange on win2k
    ____ Profile System < (gets data from) CAS (business logic system)
    ____ User Authentication | Controller
    ____ TACF AWS Library
    ____ .NET Framework | MS SQL 2K | AWS Security Framework (inhouse developed project)

    Where the bottom is the lowest level (most highly dependent one), and each subsequent level works towards the actual "product" we are developing. Of course, it goes deeper than this as well though, since changes in the Mailing List system to any records in the Profile System are reflected in the Change Request & Notification dialog which is presented to Profile System Administrators.

    I guess the biggest difference between Enterprise and Hobby development (for lack of a better word) is that Hobby focuses more on "does it work" and Enterprise focuses on much longer term goals:

    a. Increase vision – so that people can see what is possible with technology
    b. Empowering people/staff with appropriate technology
    c. Security
    d. Integration – interoperability (adherence to standards)
    e. Increase access to the right tools for the job
    f. Reliability
    g. Cost-effective
    h. Scalable
    i. Ease of use – intuitive
    j. Finding solutions – problem solving
    Aim for increased clarity – documentation
    Each of our projects actually gets a score on all of the above criteria. Each of our projects are evaluated by the MIS team. Each of our projects are assessed by an external development team. Each of our projects is costed, fueled and held accountable by the Board of Directors. Each of our projects has to prove "value".

    So, Enterprise development is about more than development, but I'll stop rambling now. Can PHP do all the above? Yeah, of course, but the fact that .NET and Java are more suited to the realm of Enterprise development where you could easily have multi-tiered development taking place around the world is undisputed.

    In Enterprise development there's a higher focus on API's, proper nomenclature, backups, stability if one piece is removed, etc, etc, etc... Dunno... ergh </ramble>
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  2. #177
    SitePoint Zealot jazz's Avatar
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    I take it that means everyone agrees that PHP is not suited for enterprise development, as long as Java and .NET exists?
    Well I never argued on the technical details but like I said earlier if Deutsche Bank and Lufthansa are running PHP sites that's probably as "enterprise" as I'll ever get. I don't really know if the statement "PHP is NOT suited for enterprise development" is necessarily true, maybe JAVA and ASP.NET are better suited for enterprise development than PHP, but I wouldn't count out PHP completely. It also depends on what your definition of "enterprise" is, something like yahoo, ebay or amazon? Because just because the site is owned by a big corporation doesn't mean it's terribly complex (that might be true for D. Bank and Lufthansa ).

    HarryF's last post hits the nail right on the head and basicially sums up how I feel as well. I'm currently writing this post on my Laptop running NetBSD with Opera which is connected to my home Network which has OpenBSD as its Internet gateway/ firewall. What does PHP have to do with that? Because I was already in that community, Open Source, I was exposed to all this stuff. This would probably never have happened had I learned ASP.NET instead of PHP. When I was working with Windows I never worked from the shell in fact I was always scared that I might break something . Now I look at Windows in a completely different way I understand what an Operating System is and so Windows is no longer a big mystery. Just like I know what happens when a visitor requests a .php page from my webserver. Maybe its "Ueber"-Knowledge but for me it answers a lot of the questions that arise when working with these complex technologies. Remember I am/was a visual artist who didn't really know much about computers until I was out of high school.

    PHP is almost like a gateway drug in that you initially experiment with it just to see what it's like and before you know it you're in the back alleys of the OpenSource Community shooting up OpenBSD and sniffing Apache!

    It's one of those intangible/unmeasurable arguments that another big plus for PHP that often gets overlooked in ASP.NET vs. PHP discussions.
    The reward of a thing well done, is to have done it.

    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

  3. #178
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Dang. It looks like I should stop trying to define stuff I don't know anything about. Please disregard my comments and listen to Jeremy instead.
    Mattias Johansson
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  4. #179
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Yeah, sure, great. But, the exact same thing could be said of .NET.

    No matter how you look at it, .NET will bring you closer to be a true application developer than any other framework or development platform. Every person who I know who has ever tried .NET has moved in this direction.

    You start with some simple ASP.NET, you realise how easy it is to do stuff that used to take you weeks, and you move onto Application Development because it isn't so scary. All of a sudden you have a deeper and more alive knowledge of what happens inside your computer.

    Now, when I have a tool I need I dont' open up Notepad and do a quick site in ASP. I write a Windows App. I do it faster than I coulda done in ASP. It is better. And I can distribute it to my friends who all have the Framework installed.

    I have all this "Uber"-knowledge that I would never have come to have had it not been for .NET. Things like the intricacies of SQL Server. Network permissions, how they work, how to get around them, how to "fakey firewalls" (as we like to call it, ISA is a pain), how to sandbox applications, how to work with Web Services (yes, in all 3 modes. I dont' care what Harry says, Data Transmission and Data Format are 3 different things, and I know why I should use each of the 3 modes), how to lead a team, how to do collaborative work, how to spec out projects... All these things have happened not because of .NET, but because of the kick in the pants it gave me.

    What is PHP? Another tool in my belt that I use when I need to. What pushes me to learn thigns xNix? Plain and simple: I run an xNix hosting company. That's the only reason. PHP doesn't make me go deeper. Passion and interest make me go deeper, and I have no passion for or interest in things xNix. Why? Because what I learn in .NET are universal truths to development.

    3 Months ago my arguments with Harry were feeble and half-hearted. Now he goes on about OO, N-Tier applications, how certain things are impossible and I can say "impossible? pfft, we're doing it, and here's why".
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  5. #180
    SitePoint Zealot jazz's Avatar
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    PHP doesn't make me go deeper. Passion and interest make me go deeper, and I have no passion for or interest in things xNix.
    I'm only speaking from personal experience, but I usually don't have an interest in something unless I'm exposed to it. My experience working with Windows was that I was pretty sheltered from a lot of what was available. When I think back to those days I would have never guessed that I could be running an similar OS that runs on many large mainframes on my own computer or have my own powerful SQL relational database to administer. When I was with Microsoft I just blew off those kinds of technologies as either being too expensive or too difficult. PHP and OpenSource brings it to the people, it may not be as polished but it gets tons of people into using those technologies and I'm one of those people.

    Sure ASP.NET is free but what about everything else there's always that uncertainty. With PHP and opensource I see GPL or BSD license and I'm home free.

    I think the problem is that I'm coming from a different background and see things from a different perspective. You are an enterprise-level application developer and probably are very aware of everything that is available. You have the budget and need/clientele for rapid application development and have probably been using these technologies for many years. I'm not and I still remember the days when I knew very little. I have a lot of my friends who are fellow M.I.S. graduates who barely learned anything using MS technologies and had we been taught with anykind of opensource technology be it PHP or Linux it might have sparked the one or the other too dive into it further. But just working with windows based technologies kept me inside this little box -> window . I still use Windows and I don't think MS makes crappy products But during the time that I did work with MS Products I was never exposed to the things I was exposed to once I started learning PHP.

    Just my experience.

    Plus if you want to talk "enterprise" computing isn't UNIX part of that equation? So any kind of exposure to *nix is good right?

    p.s.
    Bob Marley, Ghandi and Jesus would have used PHP!
    Last edited by jazz; Sep 17, 2002 at 10:32.
    The reward of a thing well done, is to have done it.

    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

  6. #181
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    The "enlightenment" you are talking about (that I also have gone through) are not so much due to the fact that you left windows, as the fact that you started DEVELOPMENT. If you had begun coding ASP instead PHP, the situation wouldn't had been any different. You would have needed the same understanding of Operating systems, SQL and web servers.
    Mattias Johansson
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  7. #182
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    I agree with Jeremy's definition of what might make software "Enterprise Level" plus a couple more points whee are kind of there already but don't stand out;

    Maintainable (the code can be easily adapted to a changing environment)
    Reusable (elements of the software can be easily re-used for other problems / projects).

    Plus perhaps one more;

    Managers believe in it

    All of those points are down to the developers to deliver, not the technology they use.

    Looking at this;

    .NET and Java are more suited for very complex projects where many developers collaborate.
    Here's what I'm prepared to concede.

    Java and MS software in general (though not entirely true yet for .NET) still have greater acceptance in corporations, fulfilling the "Managers believe in it". But slowly that's changing.

    J2EE and .NET have better tools and methodologies than PHP, but only where it comes to deploying applications within the respective proprietary environments. Scratch the word "Integration" from .NET's list and make it fade out some for J2EE.

    J2EE (but not .NET at the moment) is able to deploy N-Tier applications more quickly than PHP, using proprietary standards and methods, such as RMI, Entity Beans and Session Beans.

    What makes a technology suited to collaboration and complex projects is the developers and the strategies they use, plus the nature of the project itself. Use good practices in software design, documentation, version/revision control, object orientation and n-tier architecture and you'll succeed.

    I think what you're getting at overall with the remarks that "PHP isn't enterprise" is more "many PHP developers don't know how to develop" - you've seen badly designed and written projects. Many have a background like my own and are still learning.

    But PHP is capable of OO (shortly to become stronger than .NET), N-Tier and in general of being a solid language for applicaiton development. OO wise at the moment, it suffers from having a "mixed bag" of available classes which can help save time but that's improving day by day and is already pretty good.

    Otherwise, I've said enough - try these links:

    http://php.weblogs.com/enterprise_php
    http://www.imakenews.com/badblue/e_article000080431.cfm

  8. #183
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Most of what you (and the articles) are talking about is now over my head - I'll let Jeremy tend to them, but I doubt that PHP:s OO will reach the levels of ASP.NET anytime soon, where everything is an object, including the .aspx pages themselves, and the code they inherit from. If you put runat="server" attribute in a HTML element, you have access to that tag as an object. I might be wrong, though - you are a better programmer than me.
    Mattias Johansson
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  9. #184
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    but I doubt that PHP:s OO will reach the levels of ASP.NET anytime soon, where everything is an object
    Don't mistake language OO capabilities with framework. With PHP 4.3.0, PHP will be capable of things OO wise that .NET can't do, like using destructors. We should do an in depth comparison when the time comes - might be some more surprises.

    The fact that even .aspx files can be objects is due to the framework, not the language (which is why I say you can't compare PHP to .NET). A PHP developer can write his apps to work that way.

  10. #185
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    While the distinction between teh langauge and the framework is an important one, it can only go so far. It is impossible to make .aspx pages not be treated as objects because they ARE objects. ASP.NET will never be used outside .NET because they are one and the same.

    It's like Lego. ASP.NET has certain holes, which only .NET can fill.

    So, yes, .NET doesn't have destructors. I'll concede. I'm not even going to make a defence such as "not everyone needs them" because we've run into several circumstances where we did.

    Will PHP's OO be better than .NET? Dunno. Will it be enforced? If not, than it's just another "option" that very few developers will use which will further split the PHP community. You'll have some programming the quick and dirty way, and others who are using tools which bring PHP closer to the Enterprise arena.

    But, so long as PHP doesn't enforce, it will still be a "baby technology" which doesn't allow managers to "dream as freely".

    Again, I have nothing against PHP. A slight bias, probably, but I do hope it gets to the point where it is "Enterprise Strong". It isn't right now.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  11. #186
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HarryF
    What makes a technology suited to collaboration and complex projects is the developers and the strategies they use, plus the nature of the project itself. Use good practices in software design, documentation, version/revision control, object orientation and n-tier architecture and you'll succeed.
    PHP can do that. You can write enterprise applications using PHP if you have good developers. It's all up to the developers. The tool is irrelevant. With that logic, people could go ahead and write their applications in assembly or BASIC. You CAN, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. The truth is that good tools, like a good class library and a sweet Development Environment does increase productivity.

    With PHP 4.3.0, PHP will be capable of things OO wise that .NET can't do, like using destructors.
    PHP will be able to do this. PHP will be able to do that. Microsoft will take over the world. Jesus will come back to earth. One day, Elvis will be reborn. That's all good, but can we please leave it out of this discussion? And whats all this about .NET not having destructors? My C# book from Wrox talks about destructors and disposable objects...? Can Harry or Jeremy please educate me?

    The fact that even .aspx files can be objects is due to the framework, not the language (which is why I say you can't compare PHP to .NET). A PHP developer can write his apps to work that way.
    If the fact that .aspx and HTML elements can be objects is not an advantage of ASP.NET but it's framework, then cross-platform is not an advantage of PHP.
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Sep 17, 2002 at 12:34.
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  12. #187
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    .NET has garbage collection, not destructors. If it has destructors for C#, though, I'd love to see it so we can improve a couple of our Windows Remoting apps

    Really garbage collection is "smart/stupid destructors". As long as everything goes as expected, garbage collection is actually more efficient, has centralized load balancing, etc. It's when things go wrong that it's a problem. Not a massive one (as the garbage collector will grab it), but it's an issue.

    Again though, I stand to be corrected, as the issue of OO and Destructors is just at the reach of my knowledge right now. People talk about learning, and let me tell you...
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  13. #188
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Dammit. Lost connection and a post! Only Jeremy knows how long it takes to do them

    Anyway - PHP 4.3.0 and Zend 2 is currently in Alpha 2 and can be obtianed from here to test, so it's arrival, unlike Elvis or Jesus, is a reality in the very near future;

    I'm also pretty amazed that Zend 2 will have destructors - they must have pulled some tricks to make that happen, given PHP's interpreted nature.

    It would be possible to simulate aspx files with PHP as is but to truly do it, you'd need to have "compiled" PHP scripts stored somewhere. An interesting discussion with the developer of the free PHP accelerator: http://www.usephp.net/article.php3?id_article=25

    There are other interesting possibilities for code translation though. Another way to accelerate might be to turn PHP into C code on the fly.

    I have a concept called TurboPHP that I've been thinking about on and off. This would again be transparent, except unlike the cache, it would turn some PHP code into C and load it dynamically into the engine after compiling it. It really could be that

    one moment when you call function foo() that you're calling PHP, and the next moment calling foo() would be calling C code.
    One other completely unrelated thing. Was following up a comment made by Rasmus in his interview here. Looks like PHP might be crashing the .NET party after all: http://chora.php.net/co.php/php4/sap...t/README?r=1.1


  14. #189
    SitePoint Guru sowen's Avatar
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    My knowlege of OO is also slim at present as well, but stand back, I have a book and I'm quite prepared to use it

    You can specify destructors in c# by calling the Dispose method for managed code and a destructor (class name prefixed with ~) if your class holds unmanaged resources. Your class needs to derive from IDisposable to call the Dispose method, destructors are not determanistic, you don't know when an instance will be destroyed. The .net runtime (generally) decides when it need garbage collection to occcur and your distructors will be implimented then.

    Code:
    class MyClass : IDisposable
    {
       public void Dispose()
       {
          // do stuff
       }
    
       ~MyClass()
       {
          // do stuff
    
       }
       // etc
    }
    You can however force Garbage Collection to run by calling System.GC.Collect().

  15. #190
    SitePoint Zealot jazz's Avatar
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    An interesting discussion with the developer of the free PHP accelerator: http://www.usephp.net/article.php3?id_article=25
    It really is intesting article and I noticed that they mention that yahoo.com runs PHP.

    Companies such as Yahoo ! using PHP give it visibility.
    (does that mean all of their applications are using PHP!?)

    I think if yahoo.com are running PHP on FreeBSD that should put all of the scalability(/enterprise) questions to bed. Who's bigger than Yahoo.com?
    The reward of a thing well done, is to have done it.

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  16. #191
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jazz


    It really is intesting article and I noticed that they mention that yahoo.com runs PHP.

    (does that mean all of their applications are using PHP!?)

    I think if yahoo.com are running PHP on FreeBSD that should put all of the scalability(/enterprise) questions to bed. Who's bigger than Yahoo.com?
    I know Yahoo uses mySQL for their finance section, so I assume that it's there they use PHP. PHP scales pretty well under load (or so I've heard) - that, we never debated. However, I really doubt that the Yahoo application is really all that complex if it uses mySQL, even though it's big.
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  17. #192
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    I really doubt that the Yahoo application is really all that complex if it uses mySQL
    That's an interesting discussion in itself. MySQL certainly has the capabilities as far as performance goes but as we know, it's lacking some important features like enforcing data "rules" (constraints) with foreign keys etc, stored procedures and triggers. The implementation of SQL is also not complete - you can't do sub selects for example:

    Code:
    SELECT y FROM (SELECT * FROM TABLE WHERE val='x')
    At least that's the case with 3.2x. 4.x has some of these although I've yet to hear a report of how well they're implemented.

    But here's the question: should a database have all these features?

    I tried putting together a sketch of N-Tier application design here: http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...threadid=76228

    Now if you have a database that enforces data integrity, are you not in fact implementing business rules that should be part of the "Business Tier" in N-Tier?

    Looking at Oracle, another database I know a bit about, it has a whole load of extra features above it's basic function of data storage such as;

    PL/SQL - a scripting language (a very poor language IMO compared to real programming languages) to write stored procedures in.

    TNS - basically their own version of DNS for databases, in some ways violating the normal IP network.

    Plus loads of other stuff.

    If you take advantage of it all, you most definately will violate the N-Tier model. The consequence if your database administrators will end up being the people writing most of your applications, when their expertise is in fact database administration not application design.

    The N-Tier design is applicable mainly to peer to peer networks (such as you have online when a web server provides HTML to a browser but fetches the data from a remote web server using SOAP for example. In that environment MySQL is perfectly capable of scaling to any problem.

    Oracle is great for internal networks where client server is more common but online doesn't have much to offer over MySQL.

    Anyway - just an idea. Personally I see no reason by MySQL couldn't meed Yahoo's demands. Anyway - the full details are here: http://www.mysql.com/articles/us/yahoo_finance.html

  18. #193
    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HarryF


    Oracle is great for internal networks where client server is more common but online doesn't have much to offer over MySQL.
    Transactions and triggers are probably the two biggest 'common' things most other DBs have which MySQL doesn't. Transactions per table type is halfway there, but until that's the default table type (innodb) instead of myisam, it'll be hard to count on it being used in most installations.

    I won't even count stored procedures as a real big loss at this point, although they can be useful. You essentiallytie yourself explicitly to that database vendor, and any thought of moving if you ever needed to becomes a gargantuan task. Yes, I know changing DBs isn't something you take lightly, but it becomes harder to prove a case to even justify moving if you can't prove any benefit with the code.

    Example: we had a MSSQL and Oracle dual application - by that I mean a web app which used both databases. There were stored procs in both databases, and each camp wanted to move the whole thing to their database. Neither side could prove much without having to go through a considerable amount of stored procedures in the other database to port those over and then change the code in various spots to change the driver for the stored proc to point to the new database. It was much more trouble than it was worth for the short term, but migrating to one system would have saved them in the long run (over 4-6 quarters).
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  19. #194
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    re: stored procs. I couldn't live without them. Honestly.

    I mean, imagine the following scenario (complicated, but bear with me):

    An online bookstore. For a product to be displayed online it needs to:

    1. Be active
    2. Be part of an active category
    3. Have an active author

    In order for a category to be displayed, it either must have an active product in it, or have an active product in one of it's subcategories.

    So, how would you write a high-performance SQL-query to handle this? Good luck getting that top category to display. I mean, an existing example was:

    - TACF (cat, no products)
    - Worship (ditto)
    - Owen Hurter (ditto)
    - Youth (cat, has products)
    - Instrumental (no prods)
    - Ruth Fazal (prods)
    - Internal (prods)

    We HAD to use a stored-proc, otherwise we were doing tonnes of recursive queries from our application. So, we wrote a massive stored proc which does the recursion very nicely and very efficiently. Before it was a 6 second process to get the top category listings for a given product type. Now it's just a couple of milliseconds.

    Anyways, without storedprocs, I don't know how any high-end database could survive, unless the sites or apps were just querying temp tables which were being updated on a scheduled basis by external data management apps. How fun is that?
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  20. #195
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Concerning yahoo and mySQL - as MattR, our resident DB guru, said in an earlier thread, the reason Yahoo Finance can use mySQL is that the querys they run are 99% SELECT queries, at which mySQL is very good at. He also said that they would be better off with flat HTML, since they hardly do any writing.

    Like the man has earlier stated, mySQL scales badly when the application involves lots of writing to the database. There are MUCH better choices out there than mySQL.
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Sep 18, 2002 at 08:26.
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  21. #196
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    so summing up

    the summation as I see it (i.e. though my bleary eyes) after reading though this lovely thread

    6 Great Reasons to Use .NET

    1. Speed
    after it appears that .NET is not truly compiled & there are no benchmarks to show either is faster, nor any anecdotal evidence.... ASP:0 PHP:0

    2. More Language Support
    "..comparison to .NET languages like C++, VB.NET or C# -- languages that give you more control, and more reusability."
    daft , nor can the reverse be said to be true. ASP:0 PHP:0

    "....You can currently write (or will be able to in the very near future) ASP.NET applications in C++, C#, Visual Basic.NET, Jscript.NET, Python, Perl, Java (J#), COBOL, Eiffel and Delphi."

    & why would ya if you already had 1 language that did it all ? + PHP lets you use Java & PERL anyway + with apache2 & filters add Python and some others to the list .. not really an advantage to score


    3. Your Choice of Development Environments
    "This is an area where ASP.NET shines! "
    at last a point !! ASP:1 PHP:0 (I would love to hype the Zend Studio but its carp (on win32 at least)) - I could even make the point that thats only true if you are developing on win32... but in general I do so I won't go there.

    4. It's Part of .NET
    wow! what a coincidence ... how is that a point scorer ???? thinking of docking a point for being cheeky....ASP:0 PHP:0

    5. It's Cheaper to Develop for
    nonsense, unless you take the stance that 'I have to retrain my 200 developers' which of course can be strrev()ersed
    ASP:0 PHP:0 (really its PHP:1 but we wont go there OK)

    6. It's Cross-Platform
    ASP:-1 (do me a favour! (docked one point for taking the *))
    PHP:1

    sooooooo... without going any further (i.e. security etc) we already have a winner, nuff said.

  22. #197
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    1. Speed
    It was already proven .NET was faster
    .NET: 1
    PHP: 0

    2. Multi Lingual
    Sorry, but it's definitely a strength. How many times have you found developers who find PHP syntax odd? That doesn't happen in .NET. PHP guys are comfy, VB guys are comfy, Java guys are comfy, Python guys are comfy.
    .NET: 1 (or 1 for each language...)
    PHP: 0

    4. Part of .NET
    Of course it's a point. The framework is incredibly strong, fully featured and does a multitude of things in and of itself that I see in the PHP forums as being massive problems.
    .NET: 1
    PHP: 0

    5. Cost of development
    Cost for .NET including database, sold text editor, environment and multiplicity of tools: 0$
    Cost in PHP: 25$ (text editor, that doesn't count the cost of components to do what .NET does, we'll let each langauge stand on it's own)
    .NET: 1
    PHP: 0

    6. Cross Platform
    Did you really read this thread? PHP is more cross-platform, but .NET is inherently cross-platform, even if it hasn't been implemented yet.
    .NET: .5
    PHP: 1

    So, by my count, yes, we do have a clear winner. However, the whole debate has already been summed up.

    .NET and Java are both well suited for enterprise development.
    PHP is well suited for small-scale development
    PHP can do enterprise development
    .NET can do small-scale development
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  23. #198
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    yes I did read it and have enjoyed very much .... but come on now..

    "but .NET is inherently cross-platform, even if it hasn't been implemented yet."

    5 points for that ? ... its x-platform even though it isnt (yet could be (partially))

    "Cost in PHP: 25$"

    "How many times have you found developers who find PHP syntax odd? "
    - very few, most developers I know have a C/C++ background and found PHP very easy to work with.

    `.NET is part of .NET` ......

    & if anything else I note that PHP advocates are much fairer in thier scoring system (.NET:5 PHP:0 for x-platform .... really !), due I assume to the soothing nature of looking at PHP code

  24. #199
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Actually, .NET got 1/2 (.5) and PHP got 1.

    The ability, potential, tools, etc are there for .NET to be cross platform, even if it isn't yet. Feel free to give it .25 if you want, either way, .NET scores higher purely on a website level.

    On an enterprise level (what it was meant for) it is above and beyond. When was the last time you compared J2EE and PHP?
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  25. #200
    SitePoint Guru Majglow's Avatar
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    Also,

    I far prefer coding with C# than with PHP. It is soooo much easier to insert hard to find bugs in PHP code than it is with C#. Just the fact that all variables have to be declared in C# prior to being used is far superior. Then, C# is a strongly typed language, which also is a lot nicer for coding.

    If I make a typo in a variable name with PHP somewhere in my code, the code will run but it won't work and I have to hunt through the code trying to find the error. With C# if there is a typo it tells me at exactly which line it is at.

    -cARL
    Ohai!


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