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  1. #151
    SitePoint Zealot jazz's Avatar
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    Your post doesn't really answer that
    It wasn't meant to. Your point was that Visual Studio is for experienced programmers not newbies, Correct? My point is that Microsoft markets all of their products to newbies.

    That said though, you can't do ANYTHING in .NET without programming. So, what does VS.NET, and much of .NET do, hides the complex stuff until you need it. What's so bad about that?
    Nothing really if you know what you are doing, but if you don't it lends itself to lack of a fundamental understanding of what is really going on. I've met people who know how to get certain tasks accomplished under MS based products but take them out of that environment or ask them what they are doing and you discover a fundamental lack of understanding. Not all people are like this but I've found this to more common with MS users than compared to OpenSource users.

    To use your Doctor Example: Would you go to a doctor who says "I just make a cut here and an incision there and that person is healed. Without knowing why he is doing it but only knows that if he follows certain steps that it more or less works"?
    The reward of a thing well done, is to have done it.

    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

  2. #152
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jazz
    Nothing really if you know what you are doing, but if you don't it lends itself to lack of a fundamental understanding of what is really going on. I've met people who know how to get certain tasks accomplished under MS based products but take them out of that environment or ask them what they are doing and you discover a fundamental lack of understanding. Not all people are like this but I've found this to more common with MS users than compared to OpenSource users.
    I can bet a lot of money that lots of people don't know how to administrate mySQL without myPHPadmin or mySQLfront. I can also bet that a lot of PHP programmers don't know how to write their applications in a more low-level language, like C++. I also bet that a lot of C++ programmers can't write their applications in assembly. I have NO idea how my applications work on hardware level. That is the "fundamental lack of understanding" you are referring to, but seriosuly, I don't need to know that. If I needed to care about every goddamn abstraction layer that lies between my code and the silicon in the CPU, I wouldn't get ANYTHING done.

    But I do admit that Access does WAY too much for you, especially if you are a developer. However, as Access is not marketed only at developers, but at people doing real, non-IT-related work, it's not really Microsofts fault.
    Mattias Johansson
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  3. #153
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Maybe it is more likely with MS products, it is possible, but we know what that statement implies: the exact opposite of Harry's: It means MS products are more accessible.

    As far as not knowing what's going on, I'll say it again, in .NET you still need to program. In VS.NET you still need to program. In reality, I don't see the interface or functionality of VS.NET as being that different to Delphi. At the end of the day they are both IDE's, and basically the same in that respect.
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  4. #154
    SitePoint Zealot jazz's Avatar
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    That is the "fundamental lack of understanding" you are referring to, but seriosuly, I don't need to know that.
    It is? I guess you would know what I meant more than I do, right? Who's talking about hardware here? I sure wasn't!

    I respect ASP.NET 100% and it may be better than PHP in many ways. But my biggest criticism with Microsoft's Products is that many users have become dependent on their tools and can only do things the MS way. I see it everyday and that's part of MS's marketing strategy, get people hooked on MS and then sell them upgrades etc. Just like a drug pusher gives out free drugs because once you are hooked you can sell them anything. (*maybe this is what voostind is talking about when he says he won't use ASP.NET for other reasons)

    It may not be that way for everybody, but I would say this is more likely to happen with an ASP.NET user than with a PHP user.
    In previous posts, I was very careful to say "lends itself" rather "it forces" users to skip the fundamentals. Also I never said that the "fundamentals" means knowing "...every goddamn abstraction layer that lies between my code and the silicon in the CPU..."

    My very small point is that many PHP users, because they are often pulled out of their cushiony world of Windows and MS Products, are introduced to a whole new world of doing things forcing them to expand their knowledge. A newbie using ASP.NET may get into the afformentioned "only Microsoft Way" cycle of doing things and become dependent on it.

    One of the drawbacks of PHP, the lack of a Windows-like GUI, may be it's biggest bonus.

    When I set out to learn PHP I was still in a Windows mindset since then I've learned MySQL (although I had already been formally been trained in Oracle), Linux/the *BSD's, Unix Networking etc. Sure it has hindered initial productivity but I've also added tons to my resume and in ability. I can also easily move from UNIX to Windows without much trouble because often the "fundamental principles" are the same.

    Since all the technical specifications of PHP and ASP.NET has already been thoroughly discussed in this thread, I thought I'd add the point that staying in the Windows world may hinder an understanding of fundamental concepts where PHP can be a gateway to a vast amount of learning.
    The reward of a thing well done, is to have done it.

    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

  5. #155
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally posted by jazz
    It may not be that way for everybody, but I would say this is more likely to happen with an ASP.NET user than with a PHP user.
    And here was me thinking PHP made people into Open Source Advocates who say "if only MS does this, then they'll be decent". Then, MS does that and they still whinge and won't using anything by them, will use inferior products (GIMP ) and will tell others who don't they are fools.

    No, wait, that must be the Mac users... Or is it?

    Code:
    private void Form1_Load(object sender, System.EventArgs e)
    		{
    			cheek.remove(tongue);
    		}
    	}
    }
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  6. #156
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    I respect ASP.NET 100% and it may be better than PHP in many ways. But my biggest criticism with Microsoft's Products is that many users have become dependent on their tools and can only do things the MS way. I see it everyday and that's part of MS's marketing strategy, get people hooked on MS and then sell them upgrades etc. Just like a drug pusher gives out free drugs because once you are hooked you can sell them anything. (*maybe this is what voostind is talking about when he says he won't use ASP.NET for other reasons)

    It may not be that way for everybody, but I would say this is more likely to happen with an ASP.NET user than with a PHP user.
    In previous posts, I was very careful to say "lends itself" rather "it forces" users to skip the fundamentals. Also I never said that the "fundamentals" means knowing "...every goddamn abstraction layer that lies between my code and the silicon in the CPU..."

    My very small point is that many PHP users, because they are often pulled out of their cushiony world of Windows and MS Products, are introduced to a whole new world of doing things forcing them to expand their knowledge. A newbie using ASP.NET may get into the aforementioned "only Microsoft Way" cycle of doing things and become dependent on it.
    I completely hear what you are saying, but you are basing your arguments on the fact that ASP.NET is easy to get into, while with you have to learn PHP from a fundamental level, while it is in fact the other way around.

    With PHP, you can start writing code directly, and your first year as programmer will most likely be spent writing horribly structured applications (mine sure was). With ASP.NET, you need to know the fundamentals of Object Orientation and such before you can write any real applications. ASP.NET requires you to begin at a more fundamental level. Take it from someone who was taken from the cushiony world of PHP, and forced to expand his thinking with ASP.NET. ASP.NET is a lot of things, but cushiony isn't one of them. C#, Java, C++ or even VB.NET is not for the faint of heart - the learning curve is much bigger for those than for PHP. There is nothing whatsoever in ASP.NET that encourages nor forces you to skip the fundamentals - rather the other way around.

    My "Beginning C#" book taught me about OO and UML (the visual language used to describe the structure of object-oriented application) before it even got to writing anything close to real applications. PHP books simply don't teach you such fundamental and important aspects of software development until advanced levels. Due to this fact, a transition to a more low-level (fundamental) language like Java, C++ or C# is quite painful due to their earlier cusiony PHP environment (take it from someone who knows )

    One of the drawbacks of PHP, the lack of a Windows-like GUI, may be it's biggest bonus.
    What is this GUI you are referring to? As far as I know, code is written using a keyboard. Are you referring to Development Environments like Visual Studio? First, such things do most certainly exist for PHP (albeit nothing as advanced) Secondly, Visual Studio writes very little actual code for you. It can do some basic stuff, like generating code for class declaration (1-liners), auto-creating virtual directories in IIS for speedy web app testing and such. It really can't write any real code for you. Software isn't simply advanced enough to do that yet. You still have to do the real, fundamental stuff.
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Sep 16, 2002 at 12:31.
    Mattias Johansson
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  7. #157
    SitePoint Zealot jazz's Avatar
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    ASP.NET is easy to get into
    I didn't think it was but if you checkout the official ASP.NET site:
    You'll hear phrases like:
    "Writing dynamic, high-performance Web applications has never been easier"...."ASP.NET server controls enable an HTML-like style of declarative programming"

    Easy this and easy that. "HTML-like" style? And their main page has a screen shot of Web Matrix. That site would be very misleading to a newbie/non-programmer.
    The reward of a thing well done, is to have done it.

    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

  8. #158
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Both of the statements there are absolutely true. HTML-Like structure, yes, just like in Mattias's article :

    Code:
    <select id="ColorSelect" runat="server">  
    <option>SkyBlue</option>  
    <option>LightGreen</option>  
    <option>Gainsboro</option>  
    <option>LemonChiffon</option>
    </select>
    <span id="Span1" runat="server">Some text.</span>
    Not that you can do everything in it, but you can definitely use server controls.

    As far as them showing Web Matrix... Why not? It's a great little piece of software that makes some people wonder why they'd ever use VS.NET at all. Of course, I don't agree with that, but WM is certainly handy
    Last edited by Jeremy W.; Sep 16, 2002 at 13:34.
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  9. #159
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Using ASP.NET is wonderfully easy. Learning it is not. But when you've learned it, it's a breeze to develop things. For instance, have a look at this (not in the article):

    Code:
    <html>
    <body>
    <head>
    <script language="C#" runat="server">
    
    void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e) {  
      String[] guitarMakers = {"Gibson", "Fender", "Paul Reed Smith", "Hamer"};
      SelectBox.DataSource = guitarMakers;
      DataBind();
    }
    
    </script>
    </head>
    <form runat=server>
      <select id="SelectBox" runat="server" /> 
    </form>
    
    </body>
    
    </html>
    That produces this when the page is ran:

    Code:
    <select name="SelectBox" id="SelectBox">
      <option value="Gibson">Gibson</option>
      <option value="Fender">Fender</option>
      <option value="Paul Reed Smith">Paul Reed Smith</option>
      <option value="Hamer">Hamer</option>
    </select>
    That's what easy is all about. Not about easy to learn, but painless to use.

    edit - Jeremy - Add linebreaks in your (my) code, you crummy person!
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Sep 16, 2002 at 13:17.
    Mattias Johansson
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  10. #160
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally posted by M. Johansson
    edit - Jeremy - Add linebreaks in your (my) code, you crummy person!
    ehoops
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  11. #161
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    Originally posted by HarryF

    So you're saying the only way to learn about software development is by being a software developer. I completely disagree.
    Well no, what I am saying is the correct and best way to become a good programmer is the recommended way you learn Java or .Net by getting a good grasp of the theory, rather than diving in like you suggest.

    Originally posted by HarryF

    Most people who learn PHP will write software, albiet perhaps only for their own purposes on their own web site. But it's still software. In in building a site with PHP as their first programming language, they'll encounter problems which if they follow up will take them into OO thoery, UML, N-Tier etc. etc. Furthermore, PHP developers will learn by mistakes and have real first hand experience of why things like OO is important. Developers taught to recite theory first won't see the wood for the trees until they step out of the rules they've been taught and found out why those rules were important in the first place.

    Java / .NET remain in many ways inaccessible to those with no programming experience. Even if you learn how to use the web matrix GUI editor, the Microsoft way will mean you'll never really
    So you think it is better to learn from your mistakes rather than building up from theory first, perhaps you would like to inform every university on the planet that they are in fact teaching computer science incorrectly by teaching theory first rather than trial and error.

    Developers taught theory first can actually understand exactly what the code does and why, unlike people who blindly crash in mindlessly copying out code.

    Java / .NET / C++ etc may have a higher learning curve than PHP, but if anyone seriously thinks of themself as a programmer then it shouldn't be a problem. Have you ever used a microsoft IDE like visual studio or web matrix? Do you think you can just turn it on draw some rectangles and as if by magic you produce photoshop? To use these IDE's effectively you have to know the fundamentals, something which many people who learn PHP lack.

  12. #162
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    So you think it is better to learn from your mistakes rather than building up from theory first, perhaps you would like to inform every university on the planet that they are in fact teaching computer science incorrectly by teaching theory first rather than trial and error.

    Developers taught theory first can actually understand exactly what the code does and why, unlike people who blindly crash in mindlessly copying out code.
    To forestall an upcoming argument )): I went to University so I can speak from experience. I am grateful I learned a lot of theory, but I can also assure you that most students don't know how to write software. Theory is all well and good, but without actually writing programs (as is the case in University - there's simply no time to practice enough), you will still fall flat on your face when you write your first serious program. Becoming a software developer takes both a lot of theory and a lot of practice. Thanks to many years of working apart from University, I have become a pretty good programmer in various languages (I hope), so I don't make the same stupid mistakes again and again. Thanks to many years studying theory at the University, I have a good idea of which solution is going to work for some problem (and which isn't) and why. As I said: I'm thankful for having learned the theory, but I assure you that many programmers who didn't have a formal education in it are better programmers by far than most students just graduated from University. The latter simply have no practical experience.

    Vincent

  13. #163
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    Originally posted by voostind


    To forestall an upcoming argument )): I went to University so I can speak from experience. I am grateful I learned a lot of theory, but I can also assure you that most students don't know how to write software. Theory is all well and good, but without actually writing programs (as is the case in University - there's simply no time to practice enough), you will still fall flat on your face when you write your first serious program. Becoming a software developer takes both a lot of theory and a lot of practice. Thanks to many years of working apart from University, I have become a pretty good programmer in various languages (I hope), so I don't make the same stupid mistakes again and again. Thanks to many years studying theory at the University, I have a good idea of which solution is going to work for some problem (and which isn't) and why. As I said: I'm thankful for having learned the theory, but I assure you that many programmers who didn't have a formal education in it are better programmers by far than most students just graduated from University. The latter simply have no practical experience.

    Vincent
    I too went to university and agree you don't learn the theory then write perfect code, but the main thrust of my point was the way we learn computer science at university, ie theory first is the best way to learn rather than simply learning from trial and error without any base of knowledge.

  14. #164
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    /me wonders why the heck this is in the PHP form...moves to .NET
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  15. #165
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Silence seems so have ensued... I take it that means everyone agrees that PHP is not suited for enterprise development, as long as Java and .NET exists?
    Mattias Johansson
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  16. #166
    .NET inside archigamer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M. Johansson
    Silence seems so have ensued... I take it that means everyone agrees that PHP is not suited for enterprise development, as long as Java and .NET exists?
    I do agree that asp.net is better for enterprise level web applications, however i do think this thread can be laid to rest, but i doubt harry will allow you guys to have the last laugh Also, who really cares what language is better if it is going to get you food on the table. i think that is one of the things people are forgetting in this thread.
    Last edited by archigamer; Sep 17, 2002 at 02:58.
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  17. #167
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by archigamer
    I do agree that asp.net is better for enterprise level web applications, however i do think this thread can be laid to rest, but i doubt harry will allow you guys to have the last laugh Also, who really cares what language is better if it is going to get you food on the table. i think that is one of the things people are forgetting in this thread.
    You are entirely correct on all accounts, but the reason this thread came up at all is because of my article, and the reason my article came to life was because of the popular belief that PHP is overall superior to ASP.NET, which is untrue and unfair to a very powerul solution.

    My article got rated "1" by quite a bit of PHP developers, with unbiased comments such as

    "PHP IS BETTA"
    and
    "booo. are you sure that you were a php guru ? because i doubt you are. php has a bigger brighter future than.net because it's free all the way through. and you don't have to pay for VI :P".

    That is why my article and this thread was needed - ignorance.
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Sep 17, 2002 at 03:11.
    Mattias Johansson
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  18. #168
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I agree Mattias, and that's what I was saying about Harry's article. 50 odd ratings of 9+. The PHP community can be very paranoid and untactful.
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  19. #169
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Sorry you got rated down - but hey - PHP coders are frequently fanatics. Perhaps that is after all the strongest argument for PHP: it's not MS (or Sun). Many people believe that by backing the non commercial software they're "doing the right thing" and so it's an ethical choice. But that's beside the point;

    Since all the technical specifications of PHP and ASP.NET has already been thoroughly discussed in this thread, I thought I'd add the point that staying in the Windows world may hinder an understanding of fundamental concepts where PHP can be a gateway to a vast amount of learning.
    I completely agree. Microsoft (and Sun) know the value of "capturing" developer mindset. For example, compare their definitions of N-Tier software - both are similar but both push elements of their software while claiming to using a model which is a standard (like the OSI model for networking).

    Tools like Visual Studio and the Web Matrix mean you can knock together your first dynamic page real fast. It is possible to learn the fundamentals the development while using such tools but all the time you're being assaulted by Microsofts mindset. One prime example if I can dare to make Jeremy nervous, is how MS is pushing web services (web services is an MS term in itself: ask yourself - what are web services? Isn't a website which sells books online a service on the web - a web service?) on it's developers - at a fundamental level it's failing to make important aspects clear. MS is also sub categorising web services in a misleading manner into SOAP web services, XML web services, HTTP wbe services and no doubt more. First of all, web services is such a loose term, it's hard to define in the first place. Sub categorising it is more of a joke: SOAP is XML so shouldn't SOAP web services be XML web services. And what are HTTP web services? When I visit a web site with my browser, is that an HTTP web service? Or is it when I write a "web fetching" script (e.g. http://snoopy.sourceforge.net) to pull a web page from a remote site onto my site? MS developers are using those terms which out really understanding what they refer to. This is particulary "dangerous" securitywise, as building an XML based API to your companies IT resources and publishing it on your website it wide open to abuse - you really need to know what you're doing. Do you use the HTTP protocol: what authentication mechanisms does it offer? How do you encrpyt traffic with SSL? Or do you go for the new web services security mechanisms being speced by IBM, making use of stuff like XML encryption and signatures. MS has a very poor record on security so when Visual Studio tells me "Hey! You're web service is now secure " I'd be highly suspicious.

    Having slammed GUI IDEs, I recently came across one which is truly impressive: http://www.gentleware.com (try the free community version via web start) - this is a UML tool, currently geared for writing Java apps. This is the future for IDEs IMO. If you're a Java developer, it not only designs but also documents and more or less writes your code. I've been using it to design PHP apps and even though it's writing Java behind the scenes, for visualising an OO application, it's awesome!

    But going back to this point;

    PHP can be a gateway to a vast amount of learning
    I can't agree strongly enough. I've been working in IT (after studying Physics - a subject big on theory) for about 8 years now, the early years building/administering networks with stuff like Cisco technology. I got into PHP while trying to document a network using HTML and a web server. Three years with PHP has increased my general knowledge of IT by at least 1000%. I had no formal software education, apart some bad experiences with Fortran. I'm by no means a "great developer" but PHP has opened up so many things I can't begin to list them. Perhaps the proof is I'm now learning how to design OO apps with UML.

    I'd played with Access and VB in the past, long before touching PHP and basically learnt nothing about databases or development from them. Otherwise, apart from Fortran, all the programming I'd done was a little Shell Scripting.

    What made the PHP/MySQL combination a winner for me;

    - Their raw (some would say lacking) nature makes them perfect for learning the fundamentals of development and databases
    - The "environment" for PHP is (in the end) the web browser: you can instantly see what you've done (no compile etc.)
    - With a web server and a web browser, the only tool you need is a text editor. Programming at this level with PHP, as a beginner, is easy because it's syntax is great (VBScript or even JavaScript do not make good starting points for beginners IMO)
    - It's all free
    - It's cross platform (I can develop on a Windows box then port straight to Linux server).
    - The information available is so easy to get at (http://www.php.net/mysql) and there are so many people writing stuff online for PHP and willing to help (like SPFs)

    And PHP hasn't only introduced my to software development. My knowledge of a whole load of IT subjects, from security, Unix, the Internet (DNS,HTTP,IP etc.), databases, XML and loads loads more has improved big time as a direct result of developing with PHP (some of those subjects I'd previously thought I understood fairly well).

    Perhaps the same would have happened if I'd gone the "MS way", although I doubt it: with PHP I'm "enabled" - I don't depend on particular tools or have my opinions shaped by a corporating intent of selling me something.

    Another fine example of the PHP point can be found right here. I wonder how many MCSEs would know how to build a web based interface to manage an Windows NT server?

  20. #170
    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M. Johansson
    Silence seems so have ensued... I take it that means everyone agrees that PHP is not suited for enterprise development, as long as Java and .NET exists?
    Can you define what you mean by 'enterprise development'? Maybe easier - what is an 'enterprise'? Certain number of employees? Certain number of locations?
    Michael Kimsal
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  21. #171
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mgkimsal


    Can you define what you mean by 'enterprise development'? Maybe easier - what is an 'enterprise'? Certain number of employees? Certain number of locations?
    1 : a project or undertaking that is especially difficult, complicated, or risky
    2 : readiness to engage in daring action : INITIATIVE
    3 a : a unit of economic organization or activity; especially : a business organization b : a systematic purposeful activity <agriculture is the main economic enterprise among these people>

    But I think when we are referring to "Enterprise development", we are referring to large projects and several collaborating developers.
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  22. #172
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    To me it goes beyond that. Enterprise development is that which is developed with the Enterprise arena in mind.

    Enterprise Arena being generally multi-million dollar companies. Is it truly good enough for IBM to run? If not, it likely isn't Enterprise.

    Enterprise Development normally fulfills a goal, or set of goals, of a corp or specific group of corps in a given industry.

    Thus, sure, you could have a guestbook script. But, an Enterprise Level Guestbook System would likely include tapping into existing Business Logic systems, providing high level reports based on permissions, Electronic Document Worklfow models, etc.

    It would be much more than "SELECT * FROM guestbook" and "INSERT INTO guestbook(name,email,comment) values('" . $_POST['name'] . "','" . $_POST['email'] . "','" . $_POST['comment'] . '".
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  23. #173
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Okay, so we have established that (Microsoft) Development Environments are bad thing when people use them badly. While we are at it, I'd like to inform you all that the SitePoint logo is white and orange.

    Harry has also established that Microsoft is marketing SOAP in a confusing manner. I totally agree with that. Personally, I find 99% of all tech marketing to be very confusing and vague. But marketing has absolutely anything to do with the product quality whatsoever.

    We also seem to have established that Java and .NET are more suited for enterprise development than PHP.

    - Their raw (some would say lacking) nature makes them perfect for learning the fundamentals of development and databases
    It's easy to get started with PHP because it's so simple, yes - and that is it's biggest strength. But .NET is still more "raw" - simply no doubt about it.

    - The "environment" for PHP is (in the end) the web browser: you can instantly see what you've done (no compile etc.)
    You can instantly see what you've done with ASP.NET, too, and it's environment is also the the web browser. The itty-bitty delay when your script is compiled is hardly noticeable.

    - With a web server and a web browser, the only tool you need is a text editor.
    This is also true with ASP.NET.

    Programming at this level with PHP, as a beginner, is easy because it's syntax is great (VBScript or even JavaScript do not make good starting points for beginners IMO)
    Agreed. VB is even MORE simple than PHP and even more easy to learn, since it looks like english. It has the same drawbacks as PHP in this matter, but the fact that it's syntax doesn't really look like C-style languages will make advancment into the "real stuff" more uncomfortable. Note that VB.NET is pretty okay, though - it's not as simple as PHP, but it still has the foofy syntax.

    - It's all free
    We have establised this about 2637837256 times now.

    - It's cross platform (I can develop on a Windows box then port straight to Linux server).
    This too. It's a good thing.

    - The information available is so easy to get at (http://www.php.net/mysql) and there are so many people writing stuff online for PHP and willing to help (like SPFs)
    It's incredibly easy to get information and help for ASP.NET, too. While the community support is arguably better for PHP, ASP.NET makes up for that by having it's class library so extremely well-documented.

    Sorry you got rated down - but hey - PHP coders are frequently fanatics. Perhaps that is after all the strongest argument for PHP: it's not MS (or Sun). Many people believe that by backing the non commercial software they're "doing the right thing" and so it's an ethical choice.
    It's a sign of health to be suspicious of Sun and MS, but when one become predjudiced, they are no better than the guy I know that only shops in stores with white clerks.
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  24. #174
    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M. Johansson


    1 : a project or undertaking that is especially difficult, complicated, or risky
    2 : readiness to engage in daring action : INITIATIVE
    3 a : a unit of economic organization or activity; especially : a business organization b : a systematic purposeful activity <agriculture is the main economic enterprise among these people>

    But I think when we are referring to "Enterprise development", we are referring to large projects and several collaborating developers.
    My experiences with large organizations is that the larger they get, the more averse to #2 they are (daring actions).

    Your definition of 'difficult' is slippery, especially with respect to web programming. It was difficult (or impossible) to have a PHP developer (under Unix) work with COM stuff, but very easy for an ASP developer to do so. Likewise, it was impossible for an ASP developer to simulate dynamic includes, but it was (and is) child's play under PHP.


    Jeremy's definition is a bit stronger:

    Enterprise Arena being generally multi-million dollar companies. Is it truly good enough for IBM to run? If not, it likely isn't Enterprise.
    I would think that (due to marketing issues touched on later in this thread) that many things that are touted as 'enterprise level' really aren't anyway, but companies with strong backings can get away with that. Horror stories of my own on this topic, but I've been away from the inside of a large company for awhile, so they're getting dated.

    Thus, sure, you could have a guestbook script. But, an Enterprise Level Guestbook System would likely include tapping into existing Business Logic systems, providing high level reports based on permissions, Electronic Document Worklfow models, etc.

    It would be much more than "SELECT * FROM guestbook" and "INSERT INTO guestbook(name,email,comment) values('" . $_POST['name'] . "','" . $_POST['email'] . "','" . $_POST['comment'] . '".
    At some level, though, in any system, things this basic do occur, it's just there's normally many more layers wrapped around them.
    Michael Kimsal
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  25. #175
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Okay, then. What about this:

    .NET and Java are more suited for very complex projects where many developers collaborate.
    Mattias Johansson
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