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  1. #276
    Anonymous
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    Why buy a FTP client...

  2. #277
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    This is one of the most fabulous language wars I've seen in a while. As usual, it's totally irrelevant. I've seen no mention of the BUSINESS that makes all this stuff happen. Bigger picture, anyone?

    My shop works on all sorts of tech. 'Classic ASP', Access, Perl apps, C++ COM Conversions, Flash, Coldfusion, PHP, and weird FoxPro web apps inherited from the prior contractors.

    And this year, we have had several major clients, including two SoCal defense companies ASK for PHP, and especially, mySQL. These are career IT guys, and people who know what's up.

    They ask for:
    *Lightweight technology so they can build lightweight applications.
    *Because their budgets have been slashed.
    *They know that a LAMP system running a fairly simple HR application is going to pay for itself very fast.

    And we can crank these apps out at a rapid pace.
    *Yes, we use OOP and PHP and free database software
    *Yes, it's not an ideal setup
    *But, it's fast, it's cheap, and it's easy.

    I think the .NET proponets in this fourm are seriously underestimating the market for 'Enterprise Class' web applications in the year 2003. This is what the .NET / Win2k3 push is aimed for. PHP does not exist in this space.
    * multi-year, multi-million dollar projects, a space currently dominated by SUN/Java, Oracle/Java, IBM/Java, and weird one-offs, and a place where Microsoft has constantly struggled.
    * Enterprise organizations standardize on platforms. How many major Sun license holders do you think are switching to .NET this year?

    .NET framework and C# were designed to compete directly with Java in the enterprise. There will be action in this space, but nothing will be revolutionized. Java servlet has been around what, 6 years now? And they've got frameworks and class libs out the wazoo.

    In 2003 big web sites are being built for 50k by 6-man teams in 2 months. In 98' those sites would have been $2M. No matter how good .NET is, in this space, it is just another player among PHP programmers, Perl programmers, and guys writing Coldfusion. Until .NET get's it done in hours, no one is gonna care except the MS shops.

    Major US software companies are abandoning the so-called low-mid-market with enterprise toolkits to chase after the last vestige of big software, the monolith corporation. Meanwhile, we're sitting on an exploding user base and custom software is now accessible to almost anyone.

    The business climate has completely changed, and small companies still need small apps, quickly. We are in the infancy of this business, and new programming languages do not change the fact that the most compelling thing happening with the internet is still email and porno. Re-writing client / server apps to be web apps is not a revolution, it's an evolution. It's plumbing.

    Matt
    http://portfolio.vistaseeker.com/

  3. #278
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Fantastic piece. Rep given.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  4. #279
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Hey Matt,

    Great post, but I think if you had hours to read back, you would note we probably did discuss those aspects as well, as that's generally my stance

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  5. #280
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    Jesus... 9 pages ? 6 Top reason's as to use .NET over PHP ? Sorry folks, can't think of not one reason... I'll stick with PHP...

  6. #281
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Apparently my last post was incredibly rude. It was meant to be agreeable, apparently it wasn't taken that way. :shrug:
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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  7. #282
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Rude to me? I didnt think your post was rude at all! I did read back, but I just wanted to tie together that viewpoint.

  8. #283
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I didn't think it was rude either. I wasn't correcting you, just agreeing basically
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  9. #284
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    Jesus... 9 pages ? 6 Top reason's as to use .NET over PHP ? Sorry folks, can't think of not one reason... I'll stick with PHP...
    Uhm. Okay. Thank you for contributing.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  10. #285
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    Apparently my last post was incredibly rude. It was meant to be agreeable, apparently it wasn't taken that way. :shrug:
    I take it that you mean someone gave you negative rep for it? (not me btw).

    That's the problem with the rep system IMHO. We're not all lucky enough to have prize winning prose skills, so sometimes it's easy to misunderstand the written words we post on internet forums like SPF. As noone can see your facial expression when you post, or your body language, it's often the case that things can be misconstrude.

    I think the easy option is just to turn the rep off. I personally take no interest is it anyway, and if someone wants to ignore my help or advice because I've turned it off, it's really no skin off my nose.

    Anyway, that's not really got a lot to do with this thread so I'll stop rambling....

    Matt.

  11. #286
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    [ot]Hint: Mincer, there is an
    Off Topic:

    tag dedicated for stuff like that. Not only that, but an entire thread.
    Mattias Johansson
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  12. #287
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    M Johansson - Sorry about my latest post but seriously though folks; Don't know about the rest of you but me ? I'm getting fed up with all this ''debate'' and ''voting'' against what is the best language or technology... All have their own respective advantages and disadvantages. Me ? I'm for PHP all the way but so what ? Who cares...

  13. #288
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    It's funny to think this discussion began almost a year ago. Been avoiding it for a long time (mainly because it's like a black hole you can get sucked into). Think rolls707 gets the award for summing it all up.

    Looking back reckon alot has changed. The hype surrounding .NET has died down and it's become a respectable technology getting serious and balanced attention as well as (reading the recent SunOne summaries) giving a kick to Java where it needs it; very necessary competition. You can see the first signs with the new http://www.java.net/ site ( php.net ? asp.net ? java.net - now who started that trend? ) plus the Sun / Zend JCP hookup.

    Had an interview at a Swiss bank this week and while there had a conversation about Java vs .NET with one of the banks main back office developers. His feeling was Java (right now) wins on security and reliability while .NET does a better job of making developers lives easier. Whether that's accurate or not, thought it was interesting to hear the mindset of a developer in a company where the technologies had been well evaluated (Java being the "incumbent" of course).

    My guess is the competition now gets down to the real grind for MS and Sun ( nicely summed up in eWeeks recent .Net: 3 Years of the 'Vision' Thing ). SOAP hasn't given MS the edge they were looking for, being still an infant technology with which Java has caught up so it's now down to hard sell on both sides.

    My views have also changed alot and I've gained greater understanding and appreciation for ASP.NET (although PHP is still where it's at for me). One thing thay made me pause to think, having been having alot of joy with Python over the past months is whether if it had been Python rather PHP that had been such a massive hit online, whether there'd be any room for competition left... But that's another story.

    Overall, think Tim O'Reilly's talk at Reboot 2003 pretty much sums it up. Extending his views to a cheesy car analogy, .NET could be like a BMW 8 series while PHP is more like a VW Golf - although sometimes you want the extra comfort, most of the time you just want something to get you there, that won't break your bank.

  14. #289
    SitePoint Addict richard_h's Avatar
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    .NET could be like a BMW 8 series while PHP is more like a VW Golf - although sometimes you want the extra comfort, most of the time you just want something to get you there, that won't break your bank.
    Beetle = cool, hip, trendy, reliable, good value, fuel conscious
    BMW = pompous, pretentious, over priced, gas guzzler

    Just my pointless addition to this thread

  15. #290
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard_h
    Beetle = cool, hip, trendy, reliable, good value, fuel conscious
    Isn't the beetle very expensive?
    Mattias Johansson
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  16. #291
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Rather. Actually same price as BMW for what you're getting, and the BMW is also cool, hip, trendy, reliable and good on gas... At least where I live

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  17. #292
    As the name suggests... trickie's Avatar
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    Wanna start a new M$ VS other tech thread?


  18. #293
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    1. It is free.
    2. It is distributed under the BSD License.
    3. Many free libraries are available and easily integrated.
    4. Cross-Platform capable.
    5. Easy to learn C-style format
    6. One of the most used scripting languages on the Internet.



    Oh wait... We were supposed to be arguing for .NET, weren't we?
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  19. #294
    SitePoint Addict richard_h's Avatar
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    Isn't the beetle very expensive?
    ...errr yes the new ones are. I think they are currently launching the new beetle convertible (which are probably even more) Covent Garden and many roads in London taken up with convoys of Beetles all driven by beautiful blondes!

  20. #295
    SitePoint Guru
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard_h
    ...errr yes the new ones are. I think they are currently launching the new beetle convertible (which are probably even more) Covent Garden and many roads in London taken up with convoys of Beetles all driven by beautiful blondes!
    I'm definitly going there .... convoys of beautiful blondes in beetles
    the neigbours (free) WIFI makes it just a little more fun

  21. #296
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Luke
    1. It is free.
    2. It is distributed under the BSD License.
    3. Many free libraries are available and easily integrated.
    4. Cross-Platform capable.
    5. Easy to learn C-style format
    6. One of the most used scripting languages on the Internet.
    Wayne - we just had 5 pages of that.
    Mattias Johansson
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  22. #297
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Here was me thinking that list WAS for .NET, except point 2, and it not being scripting

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  23. #298
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Okay... Interpreted. Same argument could be had for PHP though because it isn't really scripting but an interpreted language. .NET languages are mostly interpreted languages but you have the added advantage of performing a full compile of some of them. That is one thing PHP cannot do. The closest you get is bytecode.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  24. #299
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    Wayne - we just had 5 pages of that.
    You can't expect me to read all 8 pages (at 40 posts per page) of this thread can you?
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  25. #300
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Luke
    You can't expect me to read all 8 pages (at 40 posts per page) of this thread can you?
    The destroys the image I previously had of you. I thought you could read 2 posts per second and that you had fingers like lasers.

    This is like when I discovered that santa was fake.
    Mattias Johansson
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