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  1. #26
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Personally, I am not crying about that. The site while visually appearing has too many hoops to get inside to suit my tastes. The design is good and the site layed out well. I do give them marks on that. However for my to say a site is great requires more than chrome and polish. The infrastructure has to be there as well.

    Let's look at a couple other choices to show you what I mean. Take CNN.COM and MSNBC.COM. Personally, I prefer CNN.COM. Both sites are similar in structure and design. However the CNN site works better for me because there is no information overload. MSNBC tries to put too much into its menu on every page. I mean do you really need to be able to access every article, story and special section from every page? Some people might like that but it is burdensome to me.

    Going to the Ferrari example, it is a very impractical car for me. I won't buy one and I don't even want to go offroading. However, it won't seat my family, it has no storage space, I don't want to pay luxury tax on the vehicle, and the increases in insurance and tickets alone would be a nightmare. However many people like the car and would buy it, if they could.

    What you are arguing about isn't if the site looks good, it does, but about personal preference and nothing will change that. Their site looks nice and their music was pretty good. However if I want to listen to music, I am not going to their site. I will go to MP3.com, MSN Radio or other similar sites because they are more practical for ME. If that site is more practical for you, then by all means have fun there.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  2. #27
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Wayne, I agree with everything you said.

    I'm not saying you have to like this site, I'm saying that to wave the inaccessibility flag on a site that was not aiming for that is like complaining that the Ferrari is not a good car due to its lack of off road capabilities.

    And to clarify, the site is not meant for you to listen to music like an mp3.com or an MSN radio. It was meant to listen to THEIR music. Which it allows you to do very easy!

    Flash was the right choice of tool for this job.

    100% accessibility is for sites like Yahoo, Amazon, CNN, that would be a key element. Not this type of site. Do you understand.

    Like walking out of a James Bond movie and saying that was totally unrealistic. DUH, its a Bond movie...

    OK, I'm done, ill let it go now...

  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard iTec's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Golgotha
    They used the right tool for the job. But, you guys are still crying because you can't take the Ferrari off road. OWELL, that's not why they made the Ferrari.
    No we arent, I think you have missed where we are comming from. Flash is great for an entertainment site, you can have the animation the music and be all that. If you notice all our critisims, they have not been at the site for using flash, they have been @ flash for being unaccessible.

  4. #29
    SitePoint Evangelist Mr. Brownstone's Avatar
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    That’s a very cool site, and the best use of Flash since I saw this gem many months back:

    www.2advanced.com
    Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Now that's a site with accessibility issues... Who's their client? Small businesses. Do all small businesses have flash?
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  6. #31
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Small businesses. Do all small businesses have flash?
    Heck, my small business customers don't know what Flash is, let alone if they have it installed or not.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  7. #32
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Now that's a site with accessibility issues...
    yeah it does. It's inacceesible by DSL....lol

    404

    Aaron
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  8. #33
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Now that's a site with accessibility issues... Who's their client? Small businesses. Do all small businesses have flash?
    No, their client list is quite impressive, and 2A is one of the most successful design/development companies around right now. And I don't need to tell you guys how competitive the industry is.

    --------------
    QUOTE-Wayne
    "Heck, my small business customers don't know what Flash is, let alone if they have it installed or not."

    That has no bearing on whether a site is good or successful at all. Most customers don't know what PHP is, or XML, or couldn't tell you the differnce between Java and JavaScript. So why should they know what Flash is?
    Last edited by Golgotha; Sep 9, 2002 at 18:30.

  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I know who 2A is
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  10. #35
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    yeah, I thought I must have read you wrong...

  11. #36
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    ...cause the viewing device/browser etc has to be Flash enabled...a plugin or otherwise. PHP, ASP and the others are server side and are independant of anything being done on the client side....You don't need a PHP plugin...

    Aaron
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  12. #37
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    hey Sketch, don't use Flash then, doesn't bother me.
    To me, Flash is just one more tool in my tool belt. A very good tool for the right job. A tool that I get payed to use often and so do many other designers/developers.

  13. #38
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Glad you gave me permission. I wasn't even making a big deal out of it. It was you that got defensive about my accessibility comment. Far be it from me to tell anyone not to use something they want to use. But as long as you're going to attack my argument, expect it in return.

    Aaron
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  14. #39
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    QUOTE:"It was you that got defensive about my accessibility comment."

    Yep, because I still say it's a lame comment.

    Would I not have someone jump on me if I said PHP is lame because it can't do animation. Surely someone would say look moron PHP is not ment for animation and Flash while it IS accessible, is not 100% accessibile. This doesn't make it any less of a great product. But, no, you looked at a great site, and came out barking that it wasn't accessible. That's lame in my book...

    again, it's like someone coming out of a Bond movie and saying that sucked, it was totally unrealistic.
    Or that Ferrari is a worthless car, because it can't go off road.

    Owell, I don't think you hear me; so we should just end this. And no hard feelings Sketch.

  15. #40
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    lol. I'm not arguing with you about PHP. And I had no intention of arguing with you about Flash. But you want to make an issue about it. Why don't you just smile to yourslef and tell yourself that Sketch has no idea what he's talking about and let it go. Instead you seem intent on proving me wrong which of course you won't because in what I was saying, though you may not agree, I am right. Let's get Zeldman or the W.A.S.P. group in here or just settle for our accessibility gurus and I think they'll agree that it's inaccessible. I'm not arguing if it is a good site for the intended audience. I'm sure it is. I'm sure your Ferrari does a great job doing what it does but it's still inaccessible. So....argue if you want. I'll let it go here if you choose to not respond. However, if you do respond, expect a response from me. Capeche?

    Aaron
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  16. #41
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    Golgotha, I think you miss the point that PHP is a server side language, the user never sees the php only what is outputted, so it is like comparing apples to oranges...

    Flash on the other hand, can only be used on PC's that have a special plugin installed...

    It is no good for the blind, nor for people using mobile phones/pda's to access the internet, that means that it is unaccessible...

    Whilst the designer's target audience are most probably people on PC's with the flash player installed, the site IS infact not accessible to those not using that setup...

    I do think that the developer would not care at this loss, and for the site mentioned that is most probably an acceptable loss, you cannot say the site is accessible because it is not, plain and simple...

    Oh and a nice site non-the-less, though took just a "tad" too long to load on my cable, one of the slowest loading sites I have visited, but I was prepared to wait to see what all the *****ing was about

  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Don't think you hear him, either. ;-)

    Flash is a good product, but it's not a God-send. Flash is good for animation and interaction, however, it's very bad, IMHO, for content. It doesn't replace HTML well at all, for any number of reasons; when people use it for that, that is bad, not the product.

    Now don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean that the designer is bad, or the work in any less impressive. Quite the contrary--most flash site are engaging and beautiful and on occasion entertaining. I don't think anyone would say PNG is bad, but an all PNG site with image maps, would attract similar criticism no matter how pretty it is.

    G, btw, Sketch is bery, bery 'tubern. I've debated with him, and he doesn't let go--like a shark, that one is. ;-)

    ~~Ian
    Last edited by Ian Glass; Sep 9, 2002 at 19:27.

  18. #43
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Wizardx8

    ...I do think that the developer would not care at this loss, and for the site mentioned that is most probably an acceptable loss...
    YES, YES, this is my point!!!

    I know what PHP is and what it does, and know what Flash is and what it does and doesn't do. But, do you look at a brilliant database driven site, then leave it and say oh, well that wasn't eye catching enough.

  19. #44
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    Flash is a good product, but it's not a God-send.
    like I said, many times, its a good tool for the right job, that's all I have ever said. It's Sketch that came out saying down with Flash because it's not 100% accessible.

  20. #45
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    I don't think the audience for an all-flash site goes all that much farther than suburbanite teens with high-speed connections, personally. But, if that's your audience... ;-)

    ~~Ian

  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Well, it ain't 100%! It's used inappropriately on these sites, IMHO. Even Neilson would agree that it has some uses though--just not the one people are using it for. :-)

    ~~Ian

  22. #47
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    eye catching and accessiblity are 2 different animals. There is nothing wrong with the "niceness" of this site and the client may be just fine with it. It is still inaccessible. That may be fine. To me, I strive for accessibility. It's just a priority for me. It creates more traffic, it generates more business, etc. They are usually attractive to. Flash is nice. Don't get me wrong. I just won't use it for it's accessibility issues. Rather I won't use it cause I suck at graphics and animation, but I won't hire anyone to do it for me for a client either. Actually, that's not true either as I actually have done this, but I also provided text links as well making the Flash a "complementary" feature and have not had it replace the text. That is the nature of accessibility and that is how Flash SHOULD be used.

    Aaron
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  23. #48
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    I don't think the audience for an all-flash site goes all that much farther than suburbanite teens with high-speed connections, personally. But, if that's your audience... ;-)

    ~~Ian
    look at that site, now tell me what you think is there audience? there's my point again

  24. #49
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sketch
    eye catching and accessiblity are 2 different animals. There is nothing wrong with the "niceness" of this site and the client may be just fine with it. It is still inaccessible. That may be fine. To me, I strive for accessibility. It's just a priority for me. It creates more traffic, it generates more business, etc. They are usually attractive to. Flash is nice. Don't get me wrong. I just won't use it for it's accessibility issues. Rather I won't use it cause I suck at graphics and animation, but I won't hire anyone to do it for me for a client either. Actually, that's not true either as I actually have done this, but I also provided text links as well making the Flash a "complementary" feature and have not had it replace the text. That is the nature of accessibility and that is how Flash SHOULD be used.

    Aaron
    well it took awhile, but we got there. that's all I was looking for.

  25. #50
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Golgotha
    look at that site, now tell me what you think is there audience? there's my point again
    I can't--I have to install the plugin first. :-p

    ~~Ian


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