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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by logic_earth View Post
    So it has to be Wordpress and nothing else? That is just silly.
    I fail to see how popularity has anything to do with it.
    Didn't mean to imply that. Just making a comment that if you want to use Wordpress or one of the other third-party tools, you might want to look into it.

  2. #52
    SitePoint Mentor NightStalker-DNS's Avatar
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    Wordpress is writing in php. Its not random code that runs on php platform. If it was written in .net. So that really has nothing to do with the platform.

  3. #53
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    I'm a bit late to the game, but just wanted to chime in.

    I'm not a big fan of ASP.NET. The reason: it makes people lazy. ASP.NET can generate a lot of HTML for you, however, it's made by Microsoft and we know how good they do with HTML. =p

    We have a back-end system at work that is being developed by a third-party. They're using ASP.NET and lazy with their HTML (just let ASP.NET handle it)... it makes me want to gauge my eyes out with a spoon.

    Those negatives can be gotten around, but most don't. I personally prefer PHP/MySQL for web development.

    However, at the same time, I do love C#.NET, so I can see why many people like using ASP.NET, since it's very similar in many regards.

  4. #54
    SitePoint Evangelist praetor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samanime View Post
    The reason: it makes people lazy. ASP.NET can generate a lot of HTML for you, however, it's made by Microsoft and we know how good they do with HTML. =p

    We have a back-end system at work that is being developed by a third-party. They're using ASP.NET and lazy with their HTML (just let ASP.NET handle it)... it makes me want to gauge my eyes out with a spoon.
    So so wrong... Asp.Net Web Forms (classic asp.net) generates html when you use rich controls. You could skip them, use other controls (free or paid) or write all the html,js by hand.

    Asp.Net MVC by default 'forces' you to write html/css/js by hand. Yes, bad developers are lazy with everything, however I prefer to see convoluted html (browsers don't care) than a messy backend. Html is easy to rewrite, a backend is not.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Why9999 View Post
    A lot of people building smallish web sites would best stick with Wordpress...
    Not only smallish websites... major large ones use it too. WP is very powerful and scalable and can take thousands and thousands of articles with thousands of visits. And as CMS is also extremely powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by logic earth
    So it has to be Wordpress and nothing else? That is just silly.
    I fail to see how popularity has anything to do with it.
    Popularity has lots to do with it. Things don't become popular for nothing although popular doesn't always means that it is good. In the case of WP, it is the major blogging platform with good reason.
    It also has to do with the amount of documentation and help that you can find, or the number of forums that can answer your questions and so on.

    And I don't think that he meant that it had to WordPress and nothing else. I think he meant if there's anything in .NET that works as beautifully as WP.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightStalker-DNS
    Wordpress is writing in php. Its not random code that runs on php platform. If it was written in .net. So that really has nothing to do with the platform.
    My interpretation is that he meant that lots of people use CMSs or Blogging softwares to speed up the process of creating and selling websites. You add the extra features, the skin, and you're ready to go.
    Since WP is the major and most flexible and written in PHP, that may be a reason why people learn PHP instead of .NET

    If my interpretation is correct, then it does have something to do with this.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    Not only smallish websites... major large ones use it too. WP is very powerful and scalable and can take thousands and thousands of articles with thousands of visits. And as CMS is also extremely powerful.

    Popularity has lots to do with it. Things don't become popular for nothing although popular doesn't always means that it is good. In the case of WP, it is the major blogging platform with good reason.
    It also has to do with the amount of documentation and help that you can find, or the number of forums that can answer your questions and so on.

    And I don't think that he meant that it had to WordPress and nothing else. I think he meant if there's anything in .NET that works as beautifully as WP.


    My interpretation is that he meant that lots of people use CMSs or Blogging softwares to speed up the process of creating and selling websites. You add the extra features, the skin, and you're ready to go.
    Since WP is the major and most flexible and written in PHP, that may be a reason why people learn PHP instead of .NET

    If my interpretation is correct, then it does have something to do with this.
    If you're more on the biz side than the coding side, which probably isn't the case here, WPress has a huge amount of built in functionality. You can have incredibly powerful features built into it w/ minimal effort, especially for those who are int'd in quick monetization. I don't use it myself, but I just thought some of the new people might want to read about it if they haven't already...

  7. #57
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samanime View Post
    I'm a bit late to the game, but just wanted to chime in.

    I'm not a big fan of ASP.NET. The reason: it makes people lazy. ASP.NET can generate a lot of HTML for you...
    Oh right because there is no lazy framework in PHP that does the same thing. Of course not that would just be silly! PHP has no frameworks or anything of that nature. Right?

    The issue you describe as nothing to do with ASP.NET, the issue you describe is purely a developer issue. Just so we are clear, ASP.NET is not a language, it is a framework.
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  8. #58
    Non-Member yadavarun's Avatar
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    Arrow

    yes, u can say that but if u use HTML for small medium website then it's even more better then ASP.NET

  9. #59
    SitePoint Evangelist praetor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yadavarun View Post
    yes, u can say that but if u use HTML for small medium website then it's even more better then ASP.NET
    Wow... this forum should be opened only to people who either know asp.net or are sincerely trying to learn it. Other than that it's just a place where people show of their ignorance about a technology,

  10. #60
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    Off Topic:

    People, keep it civilized and on topic, please. We're all entitled to be wrong and corrected, if that's necessary.

  11. #61
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samanime View Post
    I'm not a big fan of ASP.NET. The reason: it makes people lazy. ASP.NET can generate a lot of HTML for you, however, it's made by Microsoft and we know how good they do with HTML. =p

    We have a back-end system at work that is being developed by a third-party. They're using ASP.NET and lazy with their HTML (just let ASP.NET handle it)... it makes me want to gauge my eyes out with a spoon.
    That sounds to me like incompetency, rather than a problem with the platform itself. It's true that to get the correct level of functionality ASP.NET controls are definitely the best way to go, but it doesn't have to result in poor code if used correctly. The vast majority of controls I use from day to day is for extremely basic bits of code (Hyperlink, Literal, etc) and it's impossible to really go wrong with a generated anchor tag...

    If possible, get them to go MVC. There's a lot less code fluff and a lot less code for the HTML writers to work around.

    If anything, I would say that in general ASP.NET/C# developers are far more competent than those who write in PHP, simply because PHP has such a low barrier to entry and is such a basic language that has been hacked together over the years. You're far more likely to see poor PHP code than poor C#. If we take WordPress as an example, the code behind it is awful to read (albeit for performance reasons it is good), whereas C# takes a thorough knowledge of OO and general software practices to get a working solution. The same goes for the likes of Python, and in my view if the majority of PHP developers were to move over to Python or ASP.NET/C# the programming world would be a better place.

    If this thread has shown anything, it's that it really DOESN'T MATTER what you use. Good code will always be good code, regardless of the language it uses. At a language level, C# is better for intensive, managed web applications and PHP is a pick-up-and-play type language that can be extremely powerful due to it being very basic. However, these differences are irrelevant for the small-to-medium business; in these situations it's your preference.

    Off Topic:

    ASP.NET/C# developers do tend to get paid more than their PHP counterparts though.

  12. #62
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    I agree that ASP.NET doesn't have to create bad HTML (I've personally used it in the past and was able to get it to create perfectly valid and best practice HTML). It's just most people I see (personally) don't like to take that extra effort. I know there are some that do have awesome sites powered by ASP.NET (such as some of those advocating for it in here), but that's rare. Then again, it sometimes feels like it's rare to see anyone doing standards-based stuff, period.

    However, that is also just as valid with PHP if you use a framework. It does less stuff for you, by default, so you have to think about what you are doing a bit more (generally speaking).

    I will also admit that C# can make very good powered web applications (if you have the appropriate hardware) because it can truly be compiled, something PHP natively lacks.

    It is a bit more expensive to deploy C#/ASP.NET as well, because you have to have a Windows-based server (which means buying a Windows license and usually a SQL Server license as well), whereas PHP can be deployed on Linux/MySQL, which are completely free.

  13. #63
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    PHP is very good and light than asp.net and it is best choice for small website
    <snip>link deleted</snip>
    Last edited by molona; Apr 13, 2011 at 11:14. Reason: be patient and wait 90 days till you can have a real signature

  14. #64
    SitePoint Guru Jason__C's Avatar
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    Off Topic:

    ASP.NET/C# developers do tend to get paid more than their PHP counterparts though.


    ZING!
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  15. #65
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samanime View Post
    It is a bit more expensive to deploy C#/ASP.NET as well, because you have to have a Windows-based server (which means buying a Windows license and usually a SQL Server license as well), whereas PHP can be deployed on Linux/MySQL, which are completely free.
    Nowadays that's not such a problem. With the Razor view engine it is now possible to deploy ASP.NET pages easily without SQL Server, and the Mono project has come a LONG way (thanks partially to Microsoft for helping out) so that it is possible to run many ASP.NET web pages on a Linux server with a database like MySQL behind it. In the same vein, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from using MySQL, PostgreSQL or Oracle in the same way as with PHP. It just requires calling different code/libraries.

    I've toyed with code running on Mono and the experience hasn't been as great as with a Windows server, but it's definitely usable and it's a fantastic example of open source software in the .NET ecosystem.

    It's a bold statement to make, but with PHP stagnating with several bugs and issues, and Ruby struggling to push its way into big business, over the past couple of years I firmly believe that the powerful forces in Web Development now is Python and ASP.NET. Both languages have shown that Web Development can be extremely powerful, just as powerful as application development on the desktop. Finally, as far as IDE's go there are few solutions as great as Visual Studio. .NET is powering past Java in the ecosystem wars, and although I think that the likes of Jython and IronPython could become game-changers I truly believe that ASP.NET is the best choice for ANY developer looking to build a website.

    Here's a few links to highlight the things I've mentioned:

    The new ASP.NET Razor view engine; like cleaner PHP.

    ASP.NET Mono

  16. #66
    padawan silver trophybronze trophy markbrown4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samanime View Post
    I agree that ASP.NET doesn't have to create bad HTML (I've personally used it in the past and was able to get it to create perfectly valid and best practice HTML). It's just most people I see (personally) don't like to take that extra effort. I know there are some that do have awesome sites powered by ASP.NET (such as some of those advocating for it in here), but that's rare. Then again, it sometimes feels like it's rare to see anyone doing standards-based stuff, period.
    I've seen a similar thing, asp.net developers largely prefer to stay away from the front-end which means the front-end suffers.
    PHP is less likely to do this because there's not as great separation between the layers, you don't have assemblies etc.. you are forced to keep it simple and not abstract beyond recognition.

    When you learn PHP you always start by simple scripting within the HTML.
    With ASP.NET web forms you typically started by learning how to use controls and functions of the framework.

    @ULTiMATE, it will be interesting to see where the industry goes.
    Personally, I think the current languages / frameworks will stay around for a long time and Microsoft will keep leeching from the innovators as they have done ever since Helvetica.

    Simple, fast, cloud-ready frameworks with well thought out deployment are the future.

    Off Topic:

    Until OSX becomes a good platform for ASP.NET development it's usage will continue to drop.

    Go Steve.

  17. #67
    SitePoint Guru Jason__C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbrown4 View Post
    I've seen a similar thing, asp.net developers largely prefer to stay away from the front-end which means the front-end suffers.
    PHP is less likely to do this because there's not as great separation between the layers, you don't have assemblies etc.. you are forced to keep it simple and not abstract beyond recognition.

    When you learn PHP you always start by simple scripting within the HTML.
    With ASP.NET web forms you typically started by learning how to use controls and functions of the framework.

    @ULTiMATE, it will be interesting to see where the industry goes.
    Personally, I think the current languages / frameworks will stay around for a long time and Microsoft will keep leeching from the innovators as they have done ever since Helvetica.

    Simple, fast, cloud-ready frameworks with well thought out deployment are the future.

    Off Topic:

    Until OSX becomes a good platform for ASP.NET development it's usage will continue to drop.

    Go Steve.
    Quick question. Did Gates beat-up your mom, or kick your puppie? Your a tool.
    Chuck Norris is so tough,
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  18. #68
    padawan silver trophybronze trophy markbrown4's Avatar
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    Oh, a Kool-Aid drinking tool?

    Why do we keep USPaperChaser' account active? I'm not a fan of censoring anyone - but he clearly has nothing valuable to say.
    He gives Microsoft a bad name, and that's saying something

    "The Steve Comment" was semi-serious, with the steady rise of mac usage I think it's likely people will be learning tech that doesn't require a pc / windows stack.

  19. #69
    SitePoint Guru Jason__C's Avatar
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    Let SP delete my account. I don't program anymore, Finance is my destiny. But my comment still stands....
    Chuck Norris is so tough,
    mosquitos ask for permission before they bite him

  20. #70
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    Enough.

    thRead cLosed


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