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  1. #51
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    @noonnope don't change the words, it's not fair
    XHTML =/= HTML
    it's similar, and I know I used xhtml, but I used it as HTML, which is incorrect but most supported and common on the internet, which is also an important factor to consider, I took a very long while before deciding to go with xhtml, because html5 was my first option, and html4 was my second.

    If someone used proper XHTML, they would fail the competition because it would not work in IE at all, I think this disqualifies SVG somehow
    also note, SVG has its own abbreviation, and there title is not HTML, CSS & SVG

  2. #52
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    But, have you looked at the mark up sources? Pretty much... everybody used XHTML.

    My gosh, you're right! I don't know if there are enough users left to fill the first three places, that used HTML. Pure HTML!


    Off Topic:

    @spikeZ

    I'm not looking for apologies. I understand you're under orders. Since you forked the thread, why not leave us be here, at our own will.

    One thing I look for: when you forked it, you've put my name on the title, which is not my choice. Please remove the fallout part. If you're permitted, of course. Thank you.

  3. #53
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    spikeZ's Avatar
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    done Μitică, have fun
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
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  4. #54
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    It's interesting but mostly NO ONE uses XHTML, they use HTML styled like XHTML, it's visible by the content-type "text/html" vs "application/xhtml+xml", read this.
    So I think that might change some of your views noonnope, like some of your posts have clarified my views.

  5. #55
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    Off Topic:


    1000th post Woo!
    Ok talk tomorrow guys.

  6. #56
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    I know about mime types! I even started on SPF with an argument about it with Tommy (AutisticCuckoo).

    And I also had a rough time talking others into "using XHTML type syntax doesn't make your HTML mark up XHTML valid."! Where I was pointing exactly this:

    HTML != XHMTL != HTML5 (notice the correct != instead of =/= )

    since they claimed that the only difference between them is the self closing tag.

    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/html...-a-741955.html


    But you forgot about the validator. If the validator says it's XHTML strict valid, it's a http server job and settings serving your XHTML as XHTML. Serving it wrong doesn't make XHTML become HTML.

    That (http server settings) or some trick! That will serve XHTML as XHTML even to IE!



    And you should notice I gave credit to scout1idf for using the proper wrapping code for embedded CSS style element in a proper XHTML doc: http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/news...ml#post4840339.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    @transio: you don't make things personal while having a discussion, doing so is what you yourself call "childish"
    How can I not take it personally when a staff member calls sincere feedback "pant pissing"?

    No, I don't think that's childish... I think it's reactive, for sure, but not over-reactive.

  8. #58
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    spikeZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    Off Topic:


    1000th post Woo!
    Ok talk tomorrow guys.
    Congrats!
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
    Only a woman can read between the lines of a one word answer.....

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikeZ View Post
    See post #40 and inparticular the part where I apologise for using the word pissing.
    I didn't miss that... I also didn't miss the mess of additional insults it was buried in. FYI, I don't take offense to the word pissing... I take offense to the implication that the members' feedback given here (including mine) is "pathetic". That's what *I* expect an apology for. Cheers.

  10. #60
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    spikeZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by transio View Post
    I didn't miss that... I also didn't miss the mess of additional insults it was buried in. FYI, I don't take offense to the word pissing... I take offense to the implication that the members' feedback given here (including mine) is "pathetic". That's what *I* expect an apology for. Cheers.
    oh ok, I will bear that in mind for future reference.

    Spike
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
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  11. #61
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    Off Topic:


    Can we please move to mistrial and get another judge that isn't also a mod?

    This way we'd be safe from power abuse... probably.


    Well, I'm also done for tonight. Tomorrow is another day. And I didn't keep my promise to highlight some of the CSS. But I will. Tomorrow.

    There are some CSS things, Pure CSS, in the comp, that stand out, aside from CSS fish. And more serious than :before or :after attempts at selling better.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Can we please move to mistrial and get another judge that isn't also a mod?

    This way we'd be safe from power abuse... probably.
    Can you please explain what you mean by this comment noonnope. Are you saying that the judging panel in someway abused their position in order to influence the outcome of the competition?
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
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  13. #63
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    No spikeZ.

    Don't go putting the heat on me again. Please don't twist this too.

    I said "another judge", singular.
    I'm saying filling two positions at once may be too stressful. It shows in some of your posts in this thread.

    Maybe you need to step back a little from moding this thread since you've personally been involved in the comp as a judge, and you may think some posts here are targeting you personally as a judge.

  14. #64
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    fair enough, break required

    Night y'all
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
    Only a woman can read between the lines of a one word answer.....

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    This contest title was "Pure HTML & CSS", and that's what you were supposed to aim for, having css graphics is not a loophole if it was made with CSS
    Allow me to explain my position on this... and I'm glad you quoted the title... especially the "Pure" part.

    While I agree that graphics with CSS are not against the letter of the law, I also don't think they meet the spirit of the challenge given... thus I believe they were a loophole.

    Why? Because @font-face graphics are not a feasible or standards-compliant real-world implementation of vector graphic illustration. W3C has a spec for vector graphics in markup - it's called SVG. @font-face was designed for a different purpose. Using @font-face to circumvent the ability to use SVG or raster imagery is the definition of a hack and a loophole, and is a circumlocutious manner of achieving graphics in a website that wouldn't make sense to ever use in the real world.

    Hacks by definition, are not "Pure".

    The point of the contest, as I understood it, was to show off possible real-world uses of CSS3, e.g. to replace graphics and javascript as they pertain to layout. Examples: beautiful type-setting with non-web fonts, block-level graphics, gradients, border radii, and CSS3 animations to create non-JS DHTML effects.

    For that reason, I don't think the @font-face image tactic should have been rewarded extra points. This is my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. Cheers.

  16. #66
    SitePoint Member w3dx's Avatar
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    FWIW, I actually thought the rules were reasonably clear...

    - No SVG, No images or any other external files....
    Images I take as being .gif, .jpg, .png, or any other bitmap data.
    I don't see that this ruled out HTML/CSS wizardry to create something image-like.

    - Copy is supplied, ...., however no additions or omissions are allowed.
    I take the "copy" as the words and grammer making up the readable content. In my mind this did not discount adding additional markup and CSS content: providing the actual copy (readable content) remained unchanged. If a human read aloud the resulting copy then it should remain the same. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by w3dx View Post
    FWIW, I actually thought the rules were reasonably clear... I don't see that this ruled out HTML/CSS wizardry to create something image-like.
    I agree 100%

    But do you not agree that using HTML/CSS wizardry to create something image-like is a hack of the W3C spec?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by w3dx View Post
    FWIW, I actually thought the rules were reasonably clear...
    Nobody said the rules weren't clear. I said I saw cracks in them being applied in judging. And judge/staff bad manners attempts to cover that.

    By saying the rules are interpreted differently. Which is the same to say "the rules as we like".

  19. #69
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    notice the correct != instead of =/=
    I'm from a maths background, and I noticed no misunderstanding in the usage of that, it would have been even more correct to say "HTML is not equal to XHTML" instead of "HTML =/= XHTML".
    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    But you forgot about the validator. If the validator says it's XHTML strict valid
    Also in my opinion it does not really matter what the w3c validator says, what matters is how end browsers interpret your work, the validator is a good guideline and nothing more.
    and yes, I have served XHTML to IE when I was experimenting with cross browsers SVG vertical text, which was before css3 existed.
    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    And you should notice I gave credit to scout1idf
    and yes, I noticed you gave credit to proper code wrapping, I willingly avoid doing it for simplicities sake, mainly because I have and see not a single visitor who would benefit from that extra code.

    Quote Originally Posted by transio View Post
    How can I not take it personally when a staff member calls sincere feedback "pant pissing"?
    You inform them in a polite manner, why? because making things personal turns the discussion into a fight, everyone here things they are good, reasonable people, stating the opposite will not make them think otherwise, even if you try.

    Also I think what they meant by "pure css" was, "only css", this definition is common on the internet, while the spirit of the competition differs for everyone, initially I thought it was going to be a pure CSS trickery competition, where the spirit was something like Paul's entry, it took me some time to change my mind on it.

    @w3dx
    yeah, thats exactly how I read it too, obviously I required 5 re-reads, but that was the end impression I got.

    Quote Originally Posted by transio View Post
    But do you not agree that using HTML/CSS wizardry to create something image-like is a hack of the W3C spec?
    depends on what is meant by a hack, mediocre? workaround? cut-up?
    Yes, it is a hack in terms of working around the images restriction, but there was no images restriction, only a "everything except css" restriction, so it can be interpreted as both a hack and not a hack.
    Now what did surprise me is that there were no font based imagery which could have been done, and would still be allowed if it was done only with css.


    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    By saying the rules are interpreted differently. Which is the same to say "the rules as we like".
    yes, rules as they like, they are the ones who made the contest, and it's their rules, you on the other hand did not make the rules, and as such were required to interpret them their way, which I agree, might have been a bit difficult, but you gotta give them some slack, after all it was the first of it's kind, and there were bound to be quirks.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Nobody said the rules weren't clear. I said I saw cracks in them being applied in judging. And judge/staff bad manners attempts to cover that.
    I did think you meant that they weren't clear enough, and that the judging had cracks, and I believe you.

    The only time I see judging without cracks is when some mathematical problem is solved, because you can't argue with maths.
    When anything artistic gets involved, then opinions deviate, and there are always cracks, even the examination boards at universities have massive cracks, you should have expected this noonnope.

    Off Topic:


    lol I sound like Mr Hindsight

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    Also in my opinion it does not really matter what the w3c validator says, what matters is how end browsers interpret your work, the validator is a good guideline and nothing more.
    We have to disagree on this. If you write XHTML, then it is XHTML. If you write HTML, but pose as a XHTML coder by using the self closing tag, than it is HTML. And if you use a self closing tag like this one "<br />" and believe it's XHTML, you're wrong!

    What browser do with it is less relevant.

    It's like math. 2+2 = 4. It doesn't matter if it's the candy for the children or the jail years an offender gets. It doesn't matter what way it's used.


    While I agree the validator has flaws, it's not the way you serve you're mark up. It's not the way UAs get the mark up and what they do with it. It's about the rules and knowledge you have when you write that mark up. And if you know and follow XHTML rules, then it's XHTML.



    For me, coding is like math. I didn't make comments about the flaws in design, I made comments about flaws in code, looking at the rules. The coding parts and techniques were questioned, looking at the rules, not the colors or rainbows used.

    Off Topic:


    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    You inform them in a polite manner, why? because making things personal turns the discussion into a fight, everyone here things they are good, reasonable people, stating the opposite will not make them think otherwise, even if you try.
    This is anecdotical. But let's talk hypothetic.

    What if you inform them in a polite manner and they pretend it's OK. What then?

    What if they have the power and they are under orders to say anything to make you shut your mouth and ask no further questions?

    Just hypothetic.



    A judge in the comp, with a mod power, is using aggressive language and intimidating tactics to discourage people make observations. What this tells you? That the comp is transparent?

    So what if they organized the whole show. Bravo to them! But if they can't take ANY kind of feedback after, it's only a lie. It's a pretend.

    spikeZ's behavior, attitude and language would've cost another user a ban probably. To justify this bad manners, they say I "dragged out that thread with pedantic nit-picking and it brought down the tone of the contest". Is there really "no issues with" spikeZ posts lately?

    Well, at least, was it worth it? The tone of the contest was the essential part?

  21. #71
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    We have to disagree on this. If you write XHTML, then it is XHTML. If you write HTML, but pose as a XHTML coder by using the self closing tag, than it is HTML. And if you use a self closing tag like this one "<br />" and believe it's XHTML, you're wrong!
    I never said that, I'm saying the same as you, having a closing tag does not make it XHTML at all, for once we are in total agreement, you could write in normal HTML and serve it like xhtml, which would make it garbled xhtml, while if you know and follow the rules of XHTML but serve it as html, it would make it garbled html, and support for xhtml is low.

    Now if it was a pure coding competition, then the order of entries would be completely different, and I would agree with you, but it wasn't.



    But I still think what browser you use to view what makes a big difference, to make an example, just look at the screen readers, which are also browsers...


    Off Topic:


    This is anecdotical. But let's talk hypothetic.
    I know, my conversations tend to make some rare people angry while most people enjoy them because most of what I saw can be made into an anecdote.

    What if you inform them in a polite manner and they pretend it's OK. What then?
    Then your screwed, the persons mind is closed to criticism, and there is no way to inform them directly, doing so with result in the person getting angry at you and nothing more, he will still not see the error in his way's.
    Because by default, everyone has an ego.

    What if they have the power and they are under orders to say anything to make you shut your mouth and ask no further questions?
    So what if they have power? it's called admin abuse, and when that happens you have 2 options, take it or leave, there is no third option where you can talk them into stopping, even though I wish there was, plus what we see here is very very very mild abuse which stems from the massive amount of undesirable content that is posted daily.

    While if they are under orders (and I doubt this is true), then you definitely have no way to change the person as the actions are not even his own.

    Just hypothetic.
    don't lie


  22. #72
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    spikeZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    spikeZ's behavior, attitude and language would've cost another user a ban probably. To justify this bad manners, they say I "dragged out that thread with pedantic nit-picking and it brought down the tone of the contest". Well, was it worth it? The tone of the contest was the essential part?
    No it wouldn't bring about a ban. It would probably not even bring a response unless reported by other members and even then the person who posted it would maybe get a PM or at worst a warning.

    This is why we still have a diverse range of members, all of whom go to making a great community. Some give help, some get help, some are acerbic and some hand hold beginners all the way to a resolution.

    It takes all sorts of characters as is proven on a regular basis.
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Is there really "no issues with" spikeZ posts lately?
    Only you and Steve seem(ed) to have a major problem noonope. Things were settled with Steve last night and I thought with you too but obviously I was wrong as you appear to be dragging this all out again for another day.

    Seeing as I have no idea where you are going with this one I am going to give you a wide berth and let others deal with it from now on.
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
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  24. #74
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    Off Topic:


    But if they can't take ANY kind of feedback after, it's only a lie. It's a pretend.
    Feedback is king, all hail feedback.
    (I'm serious)


    A. Have issues with mod's comments? wasn't there some kind of thread or post or admin that took care of this?

    B. Want the competition to take criticism? post solutions without bashing anyone.

    C. Not happy with the spirit of the competition? maybe it was a different kind of spirit?

    D. Want your own competition? Suggest it to the mods, provide facts on it's validity and success and make sure you refine the rules! this way everyone will have fun.

    E. Tone is important? as it seems (not 100% sure here), yes, very.

  25. #75
    SitePoint Member w3dx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by transio View Post
    But do you not agree that using HTML/CSS wizardry to create something image-like is a hack of the W3C spec?
    Yes, it could be perceived as a "hack". But hacks can still be "Pure HTML/CSS".

    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    Also I think what they meant by "pure css" was, "only css", this definition is common on the internet...
    Yes, agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    and yes, I noticed you gave credit to proper code wrapping, I willingly avoid doing it for simplicities sake, mainly because I have and see not a single visitor who would benefit from that extra code.
    Just wondering what you mean by "proper code wrapping"? (Sorry, I may have missed it if mentioned earlier.)


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