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  1. #26
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    DaveMaxwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Could you please answer me what I did wrong? Pointing out discrepancies? We're tech people, that's what we do.
    Honestly? I think it's the fact that there are quite a few people that think (fairly or not) that you - and others - (seemingly) found the judging to be biased and unfair as their interpretations of the rules (as refined through the initial thread - not the initial post) differed from yours. The competition was intended to be fun and to get the forum members to think outside the typical three column or fixed width sites and see how far they could stretch themselves and the browsers capabilities.

    That's what I find most disturbing is that people are getting riled up over some nitpicking semantics, and the fun of the contest is somehow diminished.

    All this ruckus for a freakin' coffee mug!
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    Could you please say exactly where in my interpretations of the rules I was wrong? They are still there, and I gave clear examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    The competition was intended to be fun and to get the forum members to think outside the typical three column or fixed width sites and see how far they could stretch themselves and the browsers capabilities.
    Funny! The winning design has this in it's divs structure:
    Code:
    <div id="main" class="large">
        <div id="leftcol">
        <div id="rightcol" class="right">
    It's not for a coffee mug, at all. I thought this was a forum where you can disagree in a civil way. This comp seems to be so volatile that mods them self are using foul language in order to keep any different voices tucked down. And I point here at spikeZ.


    The comp was intended to be FAIR. And fun. Otherwise, it's just a lie. And I don't mean "fair" to me, let me be clear on this. Nor do I have someone else in mind as the winner. Fair as in being able to see the cracks. And ADMIT them.

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    All this ruckus for a freakin' coffee mug!
    Haven't you been crawling the forums? read here The fancy term explains everything that is happening.

    so from wikipedia
    A variant of the induced-compliance paradigm is the forbidden toy paradigm. An experiment by Aronson and Carlsmith in 1963 examined self-justification in children.[12] In this experiment, children were left in a room with a variety of toys, including a highly desirable toy steam-shovel (or other toy). Upon leaving the room, the experimenter told half the children that there would be a severe punishment if they played with that particular toy and told the other half that there would be a mild punishment. All of the children in the study refrained from playing with the toy. Later, when the children were told that they could freely play with whatever toy they wanted, the ones in the mild punishment condition were less likely to play with the toy, even though the threat had been removed. The children who were only mildly threatened had to justify to themselves why they did not play with the toy. The degree of punishment by itself was not strong enough, so the children had to convince themselves that the toy was not worth playing with in order to resolve their dissonance.[
    Basically saying that by having the victory be something small, like a coffee mug, the contestants had to justify their actions, after all, they can't be wrong in taking part in the contest and putting in effort just for some coffee mug, so the fact that it's a small prize only amplified the effect.


    I don't smile at your face and stab you in the back later. I am more direct, I stab you when you see me clearest.
    While I try not to run around stabbing people at all.

    The reason is that whenever anyone provides you with evidence for their own views and interpretations, you reject them without question, making it unreasonably difficult to have a discussion.

    Also for as for the competition, I stuffed all the tecnical details in the source code, while for me it was more a design challenge, where I had a massive amount of inspiration from here highly recommended for everyone!

    also the competition had problems from the very beginning, and I agree that the mods are zipping everyone's opinion, but why do you think they are doing it? do you think they are stupid or is there more to it? and considering the people here are normally very intelligent, I think it must be something else, maybe it's the amount of trolls and misbehavior that is growing on the internet? who knows, so what you need to do is write a clear and SIMPLE list of bullet points of what should be improved for the next competition.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Could you please say exactly where in my interpretations of the rules I was wrong? They are still there, and I gave clear examples.
    I'm not saying you're wrong - I was saying that your interpretation differed from what the judges interpretation was.

    For example, for what is now post #7, you have a problem with the adding text, and you specifically called out Pikacsu87 for his added markup (which for me isn't text) that created his fish.

    Then the "don't blame me, I didn't make the rules!" comments could be construed as argumentative.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Funny! The winning design has this in it's divs structure:
    Yeah, I know, but it also wasn't a cookie cutter design either which slapped some images in and called it a day....

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    It's not for a coffee mug, at all. I thought this was a forum where you can disagree in a civil way.
    For the most part it is, but people are human, and these discussions DID take an....unfriendly....tone during the rules discussions where semantics and nitpicking was reigning supreme, and some of the commentary seemed to roll right back to the same discussions that were had then.

    At some point, the line had to be drawn, and I know each of the judges placed different weights on different elements (and that's why judges were picked from different areas of the forum - each brought a different focus to their judging). It wasn't cookie cutter, plug the numbers into a rubric type of judging. Yes, there were criteria and a basis from which to judge upon, but they weren't "You have element A, so you get a point here....you didn't have element B, so you miss that point...."

    I know it seems like I'm circling the wagons here, but putting on a contest is not the easiest endeavor, especially for a forum this large - they did the best they could, and I think the perceived notion (again, not sure it's intentional or not) that they failed, irked some who saw how hard they worked behind the scenes trying to make this an interesting and fun challenge for anyone that participated.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    The comp was intended to be FAIR. And fun. Otherwise, it's just a lie. And I don't mean "fair" to me, let me be clear on this. Nor do I have someone else in mind as the winner. Fair as in being able to see the cracks. And ADMIT them.
    OK, that beckons the question - did you think it was fair? If not, please let me know what you thought was outright unfair - and I'm not talking about the nitpicky (my opinion here) interpretations of the rules. I'm talking about blatantly unfair bias, if there was any.

    As they said, if they found something they found was in direct violation of the rules (javascript, etc), it was removed and judged without it. I'm sure if it would have completely broken an entry, they would have asked the competitor to resubmit.

    If there was something which was on the line, they took that into account as well. But in the end, they tried to find the entries that they thought were the best and most in the spirit of the competition.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    The reason is that whenever anyone provides you with evidence for their own views and interpretations, you reject them without question, making it unreasonably difficult to have a discussion.
    Do you think this works both ways? I certainly do so.

    For the last time, in how many different ways can the following be interpreted:

    Copy is supplied, which can be re-arranged as needed, however no additions or omissions are allowed. [...] Doing so will disqualify the offending contestant's entry!



    Also this perfect contradiction:

    No SVG.
    [...]
    Any mark-up may be added to the copy (eg. <hr> , <p> , <br>), in fact it is encouraged, as this is the point of the contest.

    This is SVG:
    Code:
    <svg width="100%" height="100%" version="1.1"
    xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
    
    <rect width="300" height="100"
    style="fill:rgb(0,0,255);stroke-width:1;
    stroke:rgb(0,0,0)"/>
    
    </svg>
    And it's JUST markup. It's not an image (sorry, graphics) . Nor content. Not CSS added content either.


    @DaveMaxwell
    Am I being too unreasonable? Very well then, I'll be on my way.

    But this comp did gave the first prize to a perfectly anonymous semantically deficient 3cols template breaking the rules of no content added (and don't try to spin it, the whole argument was already put in place previously, you just need to go over this thread's posts again to see the pros and cons). It's not even a crazy design, to make up for the lack in mark up. It's not competitive. It's... warm.

    She added "t". She didn't add a bullet point or something decorative. She added perfectly clear CONTENT. I'm not going to pretend I didn't see that just so the whole false "cozy and warm" feeling take over the tech analysis.

    And I didn't make the rules. Don't shoot the messenger, please.

  7. #32
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Do you think this works both ways?
    yes it does, but pointing that out is not how to have a rational discussion.

    I know some think I'm spilling fuel into a open fire right now, but I find this differing mindset interesting.

    Now let's ignore the clarifications that came after the first post, and say they never happened.
    In the examples that you provide noonnope, it clearly states "no text additions to the markup allowed", there is no mention about adding styled css content, and even though you might assume it says so by saying "no extra content", it doesn't.

    Also you happen to point out that SVG is markup
    And it's JUST markup. It's not an image . Nor content. Not CSS content either.
    , which goes well with the argument which I just put in, no extra markup content was allowed.

    also in my own biased interpretation, I can't see a single "t" as content, especially if its not even in the body of the document.

    Now I asked some people (to avoid putting in my own judgment) and they agree that the design in the first one was just good, but nothing special, but it's not just the design that matters, its the markup + design, and there must have made the jury choose what they chose, and considering the number of mistakes that I now see that I made, I respect their decision.

    When you take part in any competition you must be aware of the jury, and thats why each jury member is normally presented before the competition, it was hard here because they did not reveal themselves too much, but you could get a general idea by knowing some of the staff at SP.
    You knew most of them, so knew what you were going at, and respect is a big part of any competition, no matter how fair or unfair.

    (BTW sitepointers, when you run the competition you should consider mentioning the jury, I know you had your reasons, but I think it deserves a re-consideration)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    For example, for what is now post #7, you have a problem with the adding text, and you specifically called out Pikacsu87 for his added markup (which for me isn't text) that created his fish.
    If you've bother to read all my posts regarding the comp, you'll find there are numerous praises I made to Pikacsu87's clear smart and funny design. Only if you bother to be FAIR.

    Also, if you bother to be fair, you'll see he breaks the rules for mark up and content. Should I only praise comp entries now? I don't think I get paid enough to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    In the examples that you provide noonnope, it clearly states "no text additions to the markup allowed", there is no mention about adding styled css content, and even though you might assume it says so by saying "no extra content", it doesn't.

    Also you happen to point out that SVG is markup
    , which goes well with the argument which I just put in, no extra markup content was allowed.
    I'm completely lost! What's "markup content"? Are you a lawyer? Mark up is mark up, content is content. The SVG example I gave has only mark up, no content. It's the same with CSS border.



    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    also in my own biased interpretation, I can't see a single "t" as content, especially if its not even in the body of the document.
    It's not a single "t". It's used for twitter logo icon, much like its brother "f". And a couple of others. And if they display, they must be there, "in the body of the document". It doesn't matter who put them there and how.


    And the mark up is not outstanding (or semantically sound) either for the first place. It's a tech forum and it is a shame to look the other way only to create a false sense of global agreement. And wrong.

  10. #35
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    Praises don't cancel out the negative, especially if it's in 2 different posts.
    Normally to present something negative, you need to put a positive before and after the negative in the same sentence, also normally the negative needs to be first allowed by who you are criticizing.

    Should I only praise comp entries now?
    No, your fine the way you are, but avoid labeling other people's work, because your criticism seems to stem from misunderstanding.

    What's "markup content"? Are you a lawyer?
    No, I'm not a lawyer, just a victim of many years of misunderstanding, still even today.
    Markup are the tags that add formatting to text content. (Existing content)
    Content is when markup or code or anything makes up new information. (SVG)
    At least that's how I see it.

    and the display vs actual content can be argued to death, but what matters is what was implemented into the current browsers and why, bots vs humans.
    humans see the "t" as a symbol for twitter in this case, which was added using styling, which bot's don't see at all.
    although I agree that it's sort-of an image, but so are the borders and gradients, which is where I think most of the problem lies in.

    Actually it is an image! it's added content that supplements existing content, I see what you mean there, so now I must think the contest holders thought of something else when making the contest, it's not a contest without graphics, it's a contest without SVG or image files or javascript, just a HTML/CSS ONLY comeptition, whatever the reasons for it, it's just their "rules", which I'm sure will be tweaked in the future.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    If you've bother to read all my posts regarding the comp, you'll find there are numerous praises I made to Pikacsu87's clear smart and funny design. Only if you bother to be FAIR.

    Also, if you bother to be fair, you'll see he breaks the rules for mark up and content. Should I only praise comp entries now? I don't think I get paid enough to do so.
    I stayed out of this entire competition, so I'd like to think I'm impartial in this whole affair. Yes, I watched it behind the scene, but I didn't contribute anything once the contest started.

    Yes, I did see where you praised the final effort, but then to call him out for breaking rules (harsh choice of words IMO). And it must be a matter of opinion, because I don't see how he breaks the rules as I interpret them, which is obviously different than your interpretation - but then I've always been one to accept the gray areas vs things being black and white. I look at the effort and go "wow - cool what he could do with straight html and css."

    I didn't go through it going "why didn't the judges knock him for this? Or this?" Now, this may not have been your intent, but that's the way it reads to me. And while they could have perhaps gone through each entry with a fine tooth comb, if they did that, I'm betting few would have gone through unscathed. I'm guessing they went with a "was it a blatant break of the rules, or inadvertent?".

    But I can't speak for them since I stayed out of it completely - just going with what I see as the end result...
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    And while they could have perhaps gone through each entry with a fine tooth comb, if they did that, I'm betting few would have gone through unscathed. I'm guessing they went with a "was it a blatant break of the rules, or inadvertent?"
    I'm not saying that this was the case here, but following your rationale, this is not judging anymore, is leaving out THE RULES and decide upon your personal preferences. How can one make sure it will be a FAIR judgment then? There's no way. Hence, THE RULES.

  13. #38
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    I can say that xhtmlcoder, as the person that he is, probably went over everything with a fine tooth comb, and made his own order of thing, which was then re-ordered according to other members of the jury who (as was mentioned) are from completely different worlds.

    How can one make sure it will be a FAIR judgment then
    have you ever seen a judgment that was considered fair by everyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    No, your fine the way you are, but avoid labeling other people's work, because your criticism seems to stem from misunderstanding.
    And what's that label I put on it? "The biggest XHTML mistake since Yahoo passed on buying Google"? "Breaker of the HTML5"?

    You try and make me the ogre I'm not. I said "Fantastic work, incredible smart clear and funny" and then "except it's not following A RULE for THIS COMP". This will leave Pikacsu87 work still "Fantastic, incredible smart clear and funny, a real branding effort" it is, outside this comp's rules.


    Again, I feel you're out for my blood rather than to understand correctly what I'm saying. And you play with putting me in poses and painting me in colors that aren't there.

  15. #40
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    Just for information, the judges for this competition were:
    xhtmlcoder
    ScallioXTX
    SpikeZ

    The rules that were set out and refined in the original thread were used to judge the competition. It seems that the majority of the entrants were able to figure it out so it appears that they were clear enough.

    Μitică, if you find the word pissing to be hugely offensive then I apologise - you may also note that I edited that post shortly afterwards to something that should not offend your sensibilities.

    To be perfectly honest I find all this a tad pathetic and childish, arguing over semantics and bleating on about what is fair and what isn't.
    Get over it and move on - or jog on as they say.
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    The label as I see it is "breaking rules"
    Also I'm not making you an ogre, I'm telling you to stop shouting like one.
    I recently stumbled upon a post which I can't find right now that was explaining how to write proper criticism and was hinting at the points made, your problem is not the fact that you provide, but the language that you use.

    I agree that unique content, and css images would have to be forbidden for it to be considered truly "without images", but instead see the competition as a HTML/CSS only competition, which is what I think they originally thought about when it was made.

    To be perfectly honest I find all this a tad pathetic and childish, arguing over semantics and bleating on about what is fair and what isn't.
    Get over it and move on - or jog on as they say.
    Hey! don't insult me! (Nah I'm just kidding )

    We (me and noonnope) are just having a discussion about what is "markup", what is "content", and what words to use when discussing something.
    noonnope also points out things that he thinks are unfair, while I try to make sense of it, moving on is an option, but I'm decently entertained here, plus it's evening and I have nothing better to do.

    also it made me realize that anything added after "Pure HTML & CSS Competition" only confused people, especially since "content" is a very broad word.

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    It's not a label, it's an observation. I could also be caustic like you and point you to a link to prove that, but I don't see the point.

    Again, just to humor me.

    1. What language I used? Example.
    2. When I was shouting? Example.


    I'm sure you'll find all my talk was either appreciative talk or tech and rules observations talk.


    My only mistake is not keeping my mouth shot about the cracks. The cracks that let the light in. It appears pitch dark is the color, not transparent, for this comp.

    And for this comp, and its false atmosphere of bliss, the staff is allowed to use language like "pant pissing", "dummy chucking", "thread crapping". I find something very wrong with this.

    And, seeing the slum language used above, you still point the finger at me? I'd like to see how have I, in any way, topped that.


    Oh, and:
    - SVG is not image
    - SVG can be just mark up
    - content is content, mark up is mark up. "t" is content. If content by CSS was permitted, one page of 1k would easily become 100k in no time.

  18. #43
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    what's offensive about 'dummy chucking'?
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
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    Off Topic:

    shhhh, your pointing out flaws in the human staff...

    1. What language I used? Example.
    2. When I was shouting? Example.
    Ohh, I hate these arguments, I've started to see them more often. Even if I provide you with example your going to say: "your example is X, and as such it is invalid, muhahaha!"
    It's a common strategy and I'm not playing along any more, especially since it involves work for no visible benefit.
    Instead try and see how I managed to interpret your posts as shouting without a single exclamation mark in them, and how I tied this with language used.


    Off Topic:


    what's offensive about 'dummy chucking'?
    I have no idea, but it's definitely sounds offending xD
    ...and was placed next to offending words... and is similar to &@!$)*%#!
    whatever words you use, it's the meaning that matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    Honestly? I think it's the fact that there are quite a few people that think (fairly or not) that you - and others - (seemingly) found the judging to be biased and unfair as their interpretations of the rules
    I'm going to speak for myself on this... I think the judging was very fair given the competition criteria... and further, I expected probably not to win based on submitting something different than what was being asked for... but what I submitted was what I thought was the ideal solution to an ideal set of competition criteria (in my opinion), and what I suggested post-contest was what I think would have made this a better competition overall, as well as support of an SPF staff-member's suggestion that there was some unfairness in the rules (to ignore this is deluded, though in actuality, we all knew about the loophole in advance... so it's not worth complaining about... only adjusting for in the future).

    Specifically, I don't like that it was a markup-heavy contest, and I don't like that "graphics" weren't allowed in general, but allowed via a loophole. I think we all saw the loophole in advance, but I personally chose not to take advantage of it because I thought it was against the spirit of the rules, and honestly, I didn't find it interesting... I'm not upset that others took advantage of it... I fully expected to see graphics-heavy-font-hacks in other submissions . The content revisions and no-js stuff, on the other hand, I thought were a little too strict.

    I knew these things going in, and intentionally didn't submit something that was "according to the rules" - my suggestions aren't "pant-pissing" as one staff member rudely suggested, but a very objective critique of what would make the contest better. Period.

    SPF staff need to grow up and take feedback better. Rudely insulting such feedback and the members who give it is not acceptable in a community site. I'm still awaiting an apology, in fact...

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    Off Topic:


    @YuriKolovsky

    If you hate them, why start one?

    Because it's a pretty fine way to discredit and then bailout?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikeZ View Post
    To be perfectly honest I find all this a tad pathetic and childish, arguing over semantics and bleating on about what is fair and what isn't.
    To be perfectly fair and honest, I believe you don't deserve to be a Team Leader, because your tone of voice is puerile and insulting, and shows no comprehension of what you're even replying to...

    No one in this thread has "bleated", "argued", or said anything "pathetic" except yourself... you insulted people for giving feedback to the forum. You took thie valuable feedback and suggestions given... *mis*interpreted them as bitter retaliation... cast them into a "blacklist" thread, and tried to make us look bad.

    Sorry, buddy, I won't take that lying down. You owe everyone in this thread an apology.

  23. #48
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    Off Topic:

    @noonnope I didn't mean the discussion, I meant the comeback which says "Prove what your saying, give example." to which I normally reply, giving an example, which then gets discredited nonetheless by "your example X is invalid, you are wrong in every way possible" even if the example is proper.

    Off Topic:


    Specifically, I don't like that it was a markup-heavy contest, and I don't like that "graphics" weren't allowed in general, but allowed via a loophole. I, for one, saw the loophole in advance, but I chose not to take advantage of it... I thought it was against the spirit of the rules. The content revisions and no-js stuff, on the other hand, I thought were a little too strict.

    I knew these things going in, and intentionally didn't submit something that was "according to the rules" - my suggestions aren't "pant-pissing" as one staff member rudely suggested, but a very objective critique of what would make the contest better. Period.
    This contest title was "Pure HTML & CSS", and that's what you were supposed to aim for, having css graphics is not a loophole if it was made with CSS
    SPF staff need to grow up and take feedback better. Rudely insulting such feedback and the members who give it is not acceptable in a community site. I'm still awaiting an apology, in fact...
    I agree in that they need to take criticism better, but they can't, it's a lot of work to take criticism well, and they already have enough of work, what your asking is superhuman, and not many are.
    but you don't want an older staff... I've seen some old staff (mentally), and it can get pretty bad...


    To be perfectly fair and honest, I believe you don't deserve to be a Team Leader, because your tone of voice is puerile and insulting, and shows no comprehension of what you're even replying to...

    No one in this thread has "bleated", "argued", or said anything "pathetic" except yourself... you insulted people for giving feedback to the forum. You took this valuable feedback and suggestions, and interpreted them as bitter retaliation... cast them into a "blacklist" thread, and tried to make us look bad.

    Sorry, buddy, I won't take that lying down. You owe everyone in this thread an apology.
    @staff: try and interpret like he sees it, be smart with your reply or lack of it.
    @transio: you don't make things personal while having a discussion, doing so is what you yourself call "childish"

    @everyone don't get too hung up on something negative.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by YuriKolovsky View Post
    This contest title was "Pure HTML & CSS", and that's what you were supposed to aim for, having css graphics is not a loophole if it was made with CSS
    Hmmm... Let me think about it and give you a response tomorrow, OK!


    Nah, I think this evening is just fine.

    Having graphics is not a loophole if it was made with CSS or (X)HTML (including SVG, which is mark up, not image ! :P ). It's still Pure.

    That was for a serious argument.


    You keep bringing up childish arguments. What say you about the following, for an example:

    And notice the HTML first, before CSS, so HTML graphics (SVG perhaps) is allowed "better" than CSS "graphics".

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by transio View Post
    To be perfectly fair and honest, I believe you don't deserve to be a Team Leader, because your tone of voice is puerile and insulting, and shows no comprehension of what you're even replying to...

    No one in this thread has "bleated", "argued", or said anything "pathetic" except yourself... you insulted people for giving feedback to the forum. You took thie valuable feedback and suggestions given... *mis*interpreted them as bitter retaliation... cast them into a "blacklist" thread, and tried to make us look bad.

    Sorry, buddy, I won't take that lying down. You owe everyone in this thread an apology.
    See post #40 and inparticular the part where I apologise for using the word pissing.

    If this is how you wish to conduct a constructive discussion and formulate valuable feedback for us - go for it.

    Spike
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
    Only a woman can read between the lines of a one word answer.....


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