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  1. #26
    SitePoint Zealot GregShasta's Avatar
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    The ultimately ironic part of this back and forth is that adding devices like 'text-resizers' and soforce in the name of compliance defeats what good sites are all about(simplicity).
    Surfers not using javascript wont be able to use it; seems like a vanity item. Name one large site(non compliance related) that uses such a gimmick.
    Greg
    'I guess that my ambition was to be a bum'--robert mitchum

  2. #27
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Greg, actually the most widespread browser that doesn't let users resize the text, MSIE on Windows, also makes it hard to disable javascript.
    So odds are very high that most people will really see the javascript text resizing widgets.
    [blogger: zengun] [blogware contributor: wordpress]

  3. #28
    The Madness Out of Time Arkham's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GregShasta
    Most sitepoint users are designing(if they are designers) small websites. Now, why would you spend your time devising various geegaws(text resizers and soforce) versus hitting search engines hard, buying ads, or trading links? All a matter of priority one supposes.
    You're 100% right about it being a matter of priorities. Some people care about taking the time to create a well-designed, usable website, while others care more about making money with as little effort and imagination as possible, quickly. The people in between those ends of the spectrum would benefit from at least acknowledging the importance of usability. The good news is that most people already know this.

    Tell me how you can make money gabbing away about 'compliance' and i'll gladly jump on board.
    You can draw on the compliance issue all you want, it's still outside this thread. When we're talking about readability and usability. You'll find it harder to make money with an unreadable, unusable site than you will with one that is user-friendly.

  4. #29
    The Madness Out of Time Arkham's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GregShasta
    The ultimately ironic part of this back and forth is that adding devices like 'text-resizers' and soforce in the name of compliance defeats what good sites are all about(simplicity).
    I wholeheartedly agree with you that clutter is bad, but again, this goes to design. This, still, has little to do with compliance. (You're sure trying hard to bring that into the thread, aren't you?)

    You can easily add a text-sizer to a sharp, efficient page without bunging up the design.

    Surfers not using javascript wont be able to use it; seems like a vanity item. Name one large site(non compliance related) that uses such a gimmick.
    Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that a text resizer can be a good addition to a thoughtful, and creative design. And, a large website might not have the need for "gimmicks" as you call them if it's well-designed and usable in the first place. Chances are, the people behind such a site spent some time thinking about usability. Besides, who said websites have to be megalithic? Some of the best designs out there are the smaller, independant websites run by people who are passionate about the technology and what they can do with it.

    It wouldn't hurt to be a little more flexible in your approach, eh? There's no "one size fits all" design out there, but there are usable websites and unusable websites.

  5. #30
    SitePoint Zealot GregShasta's Avatar
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    Seems to me the best thing to do would be too make your site using css fixed font-sizes. Then have a contact button and if you get negative feedback('cant read this text' etc..) inre the design then change it. Now, if you have successfully designed your site(stylesheets) then it should be easy to go in and change various portions of your site.

    Perhaps, this is a little bit of a screed but christ I mean it seems like in here we become totally immersed in meaningless half full thimbles of design erratta(the debate a mile wide and an inch deep). When Amazon, or Yahoo has a text re-sizer I 'might' think about adding one to my own site until then I'll stick to the things that matter(promotion=dollars=yay).
    Greg
    'I guess that my ambition was to be a bum'--robert mitchum

  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GregShasta
    When Amazon, or Yahoo has a text re-sizer I 'might' think about adding one to my own site
    Well, they don't need to implement one since they don't use pixels measures (which in itself should tell you something about "px")--the browser will let users control font sizes just fine. :-)

    But I agree it's a living shame when designers have to compensate for a piece of software's lack of adherence to basic standards and principals. With the amount of money Microsoft places towards IE, they, quite frankly, should be farther down both fronts. What else can but call 'em on it?

    ~~Ian

  7. #32
    SitePoint Zealot GregShasta's Avatar
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    Planned obsolescence is the religion of American business. Without it, how else would we get continuous updates and versions of products?
    Greg
    'I guess that my ambition was to be a bum'--robert mitchum

  8. #33
    SitePoint Enthusiast pastel's Avatar
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    Trying to find the important part of this thread.....

    Maybe there is another one that is useful to NEW guys trying too design SMALL sites that are optimal for all viewers - sometimes ignorance is bliss.

    I designed all my text in photoshop and imported in as gif files - not knowing (duh) that the possiblity of being recognized by a search engine is totally ended then. So I went back and added "active" type to my pages with all my buzz words in the form of a Q&A. I set the font size to "3" which means it should stay at the default (10 or 12') according to my manual in Adobe GoLive. But it grows leaps and bounds extending the text box and knocking my tables down causing my background to tile depending on the browser (or is it the screen? Are pixels a factor here?)! AUGGGGHHHHHH! What happened to the days when you just forgot to send the right fonts to the printer.

    Can anyone address this.... I've never considered EM for font sizes - always thought those were for indents only. And I do apologize but I can't tell you how many times I have read about CSS and it is not getting through my mass of blonde hair to my brain.

    I think text is very important for design and content, and should always be a number one concern!

    Thanks!a
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  9. #34
    SitePoint Zealot GregShasta's Avatar
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    CSS was easy for me, I could never get into the alchemy involved in tables. Px for font-size, divs for images or blocks or text, absolute positioning--it gets no simpler.
    Greg
    'I guess that my ambition was to be a bum'--robert mitchum

  10. #35
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    Only compliance puritans and other nerds think that a website is 'perfect' once every user at every resolution can view your webpage. Christ, hey here's an idea why not spend the hours you spend on compliance with Opera(which no one uses) and use those hours submitting to search engines, buying advertising, or trading links. The fickle geeks who fret over NS3 really aren't worth adressing.
    While I am not a fan of backward compatability, I am a strong fan of accesability. It concerns me that many disabled people (at many levels) can't browse the net as freely as the rest of us. What about all of those tech guys and professors who only use Lynx (on thier 15" monitors)? Wouldn't you like them to view your site? How aobut the old ladies who can't see small print...some of them have a lot of money, ya know?! Getting an older person who is a penny pincher to buy a new monitor when his 15" works just fine, is like trying to swim in sand.

    Sure it is expensive and time consuming. Most clients won't pay for proper accessability. But, you can bet that sooner or later a client will come along and want these features for his site. You don't have to automatically include it in your regular design packages, just make sure your clients are informed clients. Give them the option to upgrade their order! (What a concept?!)

    I have just learned about accessability and it's importance in the past few months and it concerns me to the extent that I am taking one online class after another to make sure that I am aware of the solutions to these obstacles. I am even redesigning my own site! Also....you do realize that almost every public, brick-and-mortar business has a handicapped entrance, hadicapped parking spaces...ect. All it is going to take is one really big law suit to change the standards and we will HAVE to do it - whether we like it or not...or pay the fines if we choose not to.

    Just food for thought.
    Last edited by jem32; Sep 19, 2002 at 20:30.
    Pace Computing Limited

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  11. #36
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    not sure about the status of the law in the US, but i assume it's similar to the UK, where basically your company can be sued for having an inaccessible site (Disabilities Discrimination Act). anybody care to shed some light on the US law ?
    re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
    [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Originally posted by GregShasta
    Px for font-size, divs for images or blocks or text, absolute positioning--it gets no simpler.
    Once again, you just go off spouting out nonsense, not even bothering to address previous questions, and making up words such as "soforce" along the way. Jakob Nielsen, in his book Designing Web Usability, says that "To support these users [who can see but have reduced eyesight], never encode information with absolute font sizes, but use relative sizes instead."

    However, I guess your information is better than his, because you're actually the one who holds a Ph.D. in user interface design.

  13. #38
    SitePoint Zealot GregShasta's Avatar
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    Nielsen's screeds are arguably relevant to mid to large corporate sites. For small sites however, a webmaster would be much better served by turning 50 visitors/day into 1000 visitors a day. Hand wringing about the 2 disabled visitors you get per month vs driving traffic to your site is ludicrous.

    Nielsen's constituency is obviously larger corporate sites not the smaller sites most of us design in here. His notions are fine one supposes but I prefer spending my hours in pursuit of the callous cash transaction.

    Greg
    P.S. and soforce
    'I guess that my ambition was to be a bum'--robert mitchum

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Originally posted by GregShasta
    Tell me how you can make money gabbing away about 'compliance' and i'll gladly jump on board. Till then.............
    Greg
    On the web, there is at least one simple equation. Visitors == Money.

    Bad design and lack of standards compliance == No visitors.

    Especially with the advent of PDA's. FWIW, I know plently of people with 15 inch monitors - in fact they're in the majority. At my place of work, with a couple of hundred PC's - only myself and the IT dept have anything bigger. Most of my family and friends also have 15 inch - they don't need bigger. The 640*480 thing? Well I use it at home. Not because I have sight probs, but because the monitors halfway across the room (wireless). That in itself isn't the issue though is it? There are more and more people browsing daily with Ipac's and the like - so by your definition of what is important, you exclude both low-end and high end users.


    So, going back to "Tell me how you can make money gabbing away about 'compliance' and i'll gladly jump on board", the answer is simple. Making your site accessible to all of these irrelevent people == more visitors == more money. QED.
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
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