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  1. #101
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    So can you explain your original post above a little, and 'possibly' explain why all these people are leaving/deserting the church ? (After all why would they leave if they already know what will happen to the non believers)

    Leaving or deserting the church?? Are you talking about the Catholic church?? I am not a Catholic and I don't a lot about that denomination but I think they believe that the dead are held in a type of holding area before going to Heaven. I am not sure if they believe in Rapture or not.
    Last edited by Hartmann; Sep 8, 2002 at 16:14.

  2. #102
    The short answer is yes... Herbster's Avatar
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    Originally posted by S7even


    No.

    Atheism is just a simple conclusion based on logic, not a huge fairy tale.
    Logic is a powerful tool, but that's all it is - a tool. It's nothing to build a life on.

    The word "faith" has always given me the hee-bee-jee-bees. I tried being athiest. Finally had to settle on being agnostic - though that fealt wishy-washy. It was over twenty years before I realized I was only reacting to the actions of mortals. It is my experience that Christians can be very un-Christian.

    I was very sick once. Afterwards, the diagnosis were conflicting and inconclusive. All I can say is that had I believed in prayer, I would have prayed for death and accepted it gladly. Instead, I did the unthinkable. I turned to the Supreme Being and demanded that He receive me or destroy me. I wouldn't accept anything else. I fealt my life leave my body. I was greatful that the terror was over and slipped into a welcome unconsciousness expecting never to wake. I don't know how long I was out, but slowly I fealt my life come back to me and it was so much more than what I had surrendered. I was overwhelmed by the unquestioning love of a Supreme Being I had rejected for so many years. I cried like a baby. The medical people were stunned and quickly revised their judgements on my condition.

    What I discovered is that "faith", for me, doesn't require accepting the judgements of other mortals, it requires only the acceptance of a personal knowledge that cannot be demonstrated to others, though others can experience it and we can communicate about it.

    Whether something is or is not a fairy tale is a subject for mortal debate. Christians may or may not condemn me as a bad Christian, but I don't feel obliged to accept a literal interpretation of the Bible to have a personal relationship with the Supreme Being.

    For those who don't know or choose not to "believe"...
    Our bodies eventually wear out. When atheists die, I "believe" they will be in for a pleasant surprise.
    Last edited by Herbster; Sep 8, 2002 at 16:40.

  3. #103
    SitePoint Evangelist S7even's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Herbster

    For those who don't know or choose not to "believe"...
    Our bodies eventually wear out. When atheists die, I "believe" they will be in for a pleasant surprise.
    What i "believe" is that there will be no pleasant or unpleasant surprises for anybody.

    Even if we assume that there is a sole that is separate from our bodies, what we are is what is written in our brains. When your brain will become food for some insects and worms where will *you* exist? Where will your memories exist? Where will all those things that you learned in this world exist (including your language and ability to speak)? How will you receive and process new information? How will you be different from a mosquito or an elephant? (because our brain capacity is what makes us different). How will you be you without your brain?

    Even if we assume that there is a sole, then the MOST you can expect to be after you loose your brain is what you were before you had it. When you were 2 or 5 cells in the body of your mother without any brain formed yet.

    Conclusion: Try to use your brains now you have them.

  4. #104
    The short answer is yes... Herbster's Avatar
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    I've avoided this thread because it is a no win game.

    I finally replied because I feat some people here were treating the subject seriously and I fealt it was cowardly to hide my personal discovery (though not unique) because I was afraid of how people might respond.

    Ths subject of the soul...
    How that confused me when I was young. And I received no help from those who claimed to know more. I had this thing and it was called a soul, but where was it? I could never find it. Like a pup chasing its' tail I would look behind me expecting to find this "soul" thing following me. What I discovered and what I have come to learn that many have always known is that I am my soul. There is no distinction. My soul, my spirit is me.

    Who told you that you are your brain?
    Do you understand that it requires as much faith to believe you are your brain as it requires to believe that you were delivered by a stork? No one understands the workings of the brain. If any one says they do they are a liar.

    I consider the brain a switchboard that allows me to interact with the physical universe. If it goes bonkers, hey! Pull the plug. It won't be the end of me.

  5. #105
    SitePoint Evangelist S7even's Avatar
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    Nobody told me that I am my brain. Its simple logic. If they remove my arms, i will still be me, if they remove my eyes or my legs, again it will still be me. If they remove my brain and put it in your head, then your body will not be yours anymore, it will be mine, and the body i have now will only exist in my memories. If they kill my brain, i will stop to exist.

    Even if we assume that "the brain is a switchboard that allows us to interact with the physical universe" the question remains: When you were 2-3 cells old and you didn't had a brain but you had a "sole", how did you interact with anything (physical or not)? The truth is that you didn't. Because without a brain not only you can't interact with anything, you can not think, you can not receive and process information, you can not feel ... you can not exist.

  6. #106
    The short answer is yes... Herbster's Avatar
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    If they remove my brain and put it in your head, then your body will not be yours anymore, it will be mine,
    No one knows that because it has never been done.
    The only way for you to believe that is to have faith in the idea.

  7. #107
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    I don't claim that a poster's views should be left unpublished because they offend me or because they are distasteful. I've been involved in a few discussions here that included lots of comments which were offensive and distasteful. Sometimes people angrily left a thread because of a comment that was made. Tempers really get out of hand sometimes.

    But that's got nothing to do with my suggestion here that there are limits, morally and in some democratic countries legaly, to freedom of speech.

    When you use a communications forum like this to call for murder you are exploiting a media intended for an exchange of ideas as a means to promote crime and endanger the safety of law abiding citizens. It's not just an offensive idea being expressed. It's a crime being committed.

    Remember, the poster wrote that Hitler was really on to something when he tried to kill all Jews and he should have tried to kill all Christians while he was at it. Wouldn't you feel your personal safety compromised in a society where incitement to murder was protected under the right to free speech?

    As far as this not being the place to debate this issue, I think it is the place, since it relates to a post in this thread, although it's tangential to the thread title.

  8. #108
    SitePoint Evangelist S7even's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Herbster

    No one knows that because it has never been done.
    The only way for you to believe that is to have faith in the idea.
    You doubt that such thing can be done in the near future? Maybe they will not do it on humans for other reasons, but i am sure such things will be possible in no more than 25 years from now.

    I have faith or whatever you want to call it in things that make sense and are very possible.
    Nothing is certain in this world, but i believe that i will be alive 5 minutes from now. This belief is something that makes perfect sense and will most probably come true. I don't believe on things that don't make sense and there is no proof of them(e.g that in 5 minutes the sky will turn yellow and will start raining lollipops).

  9. #109
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    As I've said nearly 100 times, I chose Christianity because of logic.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  10. #110
    Forum Mathematics Geek Agent Dwarf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hartmann
    Here is my $.02

    If one day you Christians wake up and millions and millions of people have disappeared, then you were wrong. There is a God and what has just happened was the Invisible Pink Unicorn swooping up the Ones That Believe. I suggest you find the Book of the Invisible Pink Unicorn should this happen and start reading about repenting.... Just a future "help" post

  11. #111
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Andy, since this is regarding the interpretation of the guidelines, the most appropriate place for this discussion would be the Sugestions and Feedback forum. This really has little to do with the topic at hand.

    Anyway, I don't know of a single advisor who wouldn't eliminate any post if they actually felt the poster was actually condoning murder or making a real threat against any group.

    ~~Ian

  12. #112
    Forum Mathematics Geek Agent Dwarf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    As I've said nearly 100 times, I chose Christianity because of logic.
    I'd like to hear that logic.

  13. #113
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    Andy, since this is regarding the interpretation of the guidelines, the most appropriate place for this discussion would be the Sugestions and Feedback forum. This really has little to do with the topic at hand.
    ~~Ian
    Good idea Ian.
    I'm there.

    http://sitepointforums.com/showthrea...threadid=75632

  14. #114
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Andy, I've posted in a variety of threads on the subject, and this week's a busy week. Not a week to go digging through my links. Most of mine are from Golgotha though, so you may want to ask him
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  15. #115
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    http://www.rationalchristianity.net/
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr.htm

    Lots of good reading. It's too hard to say "what is your logic" on a subject as broad as God, science, creation, life, eternity, etc. Feel free to ask a question though (probably best in another thread)
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  16. #116
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by S7even
    Nobody told me that I am my brain. Its simple logic.
    "Logic" is simply the word (IE: label) you use to describe what you believe to be a true statement. Without God, though, exactly how do you prove that logic works? How do you prove that a statement is true?

  17. #117
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Agent Dwarf
    I'd like to hear that logic.
    The logic is that logic doesn't exist without some sort of higher power. Otherwise, the line of questioning would go something like this:

    "Why does 1 + 1 = 2?"
    "Because of mathematics."
    "Why is mathematics true?"
    "Because it's logical."
    "How do you know logic is true?"
    "It just is."

    Eventually, I think you'll find that without some ULTIMATE Truth, such as God, to rest on, you end up resting on "it is because it is."

  18. #118
    Forum Mathematics Geek Agent Dwarf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    The logic is that logic doesn't exist without some sort of higher power. Otherwise, the line of questioning would go something like this:

    "Why does 1 + 1 = 2?"
    "Because of mathematics."
    "Why is mathematics true?"
    "Because it's logical."
    "How do you know logic is true?"
    "It just is."

    Eventually, I think you'll find that without some ULTIMATE Truth, such as God, to rest on, you end up resting on "it is because it is."
    *staggers*

    First off, mathematics is the one thing that is universal. To believe that there might be a "higher power that is beyond mathematics" is ok, but so is saying that a pink unicorn could be controlling your mind right now. I'm not giving up on logic just yet.

    But you're right. Logic isn't necesarily all 100% valid. But hey, if you're gonna give up everything you know in the world just because it's not 100% for sure, you might as well not even live. Right now I'm doing fine as an agnostic.

  19. #119
    SitePoint Evangelist S7even's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by TWTCommish
    [B]
    The logic is that logic doesn't exist without some sort of higher power. Otherwise, the line of questioning would go something like this:

    "Why does 1 + 1 = 2?"
    "Because of mathematics."
    "Why is mathematics true?"
    "Because it's logical."
    "How do you know logic is true?"
    "It just is."

    You don't need god for 1+1=2 and i believe that your elementary school teachers should have taught you the reason why when you add 1 and 1 you get 2.

    Still I agree that there are some kinds of questions that no answer can be found just by using logic. (e.g. Why we exist?)
    So our difference is that when we get to a "why?" that logic and/or science can not answer I say: "i don't know" while theists say: "because of God".

    An example: Some thousand years ago somewhere in Africa at noon and while the sky was clear suddenly the sun disappeared. The theists said: "God did it" or "it's a sign from our gods" while the smarter people simply admitted that they didn't had the ability to explain the phenomenon and said: "We have no clue what that was".

    The phenomenon of eclipses has since then been discovered. But since we are just a nothing compared to the whole universe, many more questions remain unanswered.

    A question that can not be answered does not prove the existence of god. All it does is to remind us how small we are and that unfortunately we will never get all the answers.

  20. #120
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Agent Dwarf

    But you're right. Logic isn't necesarily all 100% valid. But hey, if you're gonna give up everything you know in the world just because it's not 100% for sure, you might as well not even live. Right now I'm doing fine as an agnostic.
    I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying I don't believe in mathematics or logic. I do...what I'm saying is that without God, what basis do you have for seeing anything as being true at all? In the end, you fall back on universal laws like gravity and mathematics that are true "just because they are," basically. Far from a compelling argument!


    S7even

    You don't need god for 1+1=2 and i believe that your elementary school teachers should have taught you the reason why when you add 1 and 1 you get 2.
    If it's so simple, why don't you tell me why 1 + 1 = 2?

    Still I agree that there are some kinds of questions that no answer can be found just by using logic. (e.g. Why we exist?)
    So our difference is that when we get to a "why?" that logic and/or science can not answer I say: "i don't know" while theists say: "because of God".
    That's a rash generalization. I believe in God, but I don't always say "because of God." God is just one of the possible reasons. I believe in scientific methods as much as any atheist, more or less.

  21. #121
    SitePoint Evangelist S7even's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    If it's so simple, why don't you tell me why 1 + 1 = 2?
    Can you count 1,2,3,4 ...? Can u recognize units (e.g one apple, 1 kilo of potatoes etc)? I am sure you do. So i don't have time to waste to give kindergarten lessons like "here is one apple, we take another one apple...).


    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    God is just one of the possible reasons.
    I am willing to accept that. As long as you don't say that the answer is god, but that god is just one of a really huge number of possible reasons.
    Sample question: Why humans live on this planet? possible reasons (in no particular order): because God created Adam and Eve..., because of some crazy pink unicorn, because aliens created people as an experiment, we came here from another planet, we evolved, there are no people - its just an illusion, all this is just a dream, etc etc ...

    So the answer is: "We don't know, but we can think of a billion possible reasons. Still the truth might be something else"

  22. #122
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Can you count 1,2,3,4 ...? Can u recognize units (e.g one apple, 1 kilo of potatoes etc)? I am sure you do. So i don't have time to waste to give kindergarten lessons like "here is one apple, we take another one apple...).
    You didn't answer my question. I'm asking you WHY math works, and you're just demonstrating math again. I don't think you understand. Why does math work?

    By the way: in case you don't realize this, I'm not saying I don't understand or believe in math. I do. I'm asking these questions to make a point.

    I am willing to accept that. As long as you don't say that the answer is god, but that god is just one of a really huge number of possible reasons.
    Uh, the answer IS God. I acknowledge other possibilities as being TECHNICALLY possible, but I don't believe them.

  23. #123
    The short answer is yes... Herbster's Avatar
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    Logic. Scientific method.

    They are fantastic tools that have already greatly improved our mortal lives, though they are relatively new and we have yet to discover where they will lead us.

    But they are tools for the physical universe.
    Expecting them to yield answers to questions that are not physical is neither logical or scientific.

    The whole God thing appears to trigger a lot of hostility.

    What about love?

    Can we agree that both theists and atheists are capable of experiencing love? Are you going to tell me that love is a physical phenomena? Nothing more than brain chemistry, perhaps?

    Of the theists here, how many of you have experienced the Supreme Being? Is that experience something that can be demonstrated by logic or science?
    Last edited by Herbster; Sep 12, 2002 at 18:39.

  24. #124
    SitePoint Evangelist S7even's Avatar
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    TWT what is your point? That math to work need a god? That god created math? What?

    Herbster,
    There is nothing that is not “physical”. Even love is. Of course I hope you do not expect from me or anybody to explain to you the exact way that love is created. Science just started to explore the way these kinds of things happen in our brains. The way people 3 thousand years ago couldn’t explain the phenomenon of eclipses, today we are still unable to give the exact details of how phenomena like love happen. Maybe that will be explained also in the next decades or centuries. Don’t give metaphysical explanations just because some things can not be explained by science yet.

    But even today there is no doubt about the direct connection of the brain with emotions and feelings.
    There are hormones that affect or even shape our desires, drags and substances that can change our mood, they can even make us feel happy and excited and affect our feelings and emotions, they can even make us see thinks that do not exist. All these can happen just with some “brain chemistry”.

    Some people that are ignorant about the effects of such drugs and medicines, might take them and then if they have some of those hallucinations they might interpret them as experience with the “supreme being”. (still for others a strange dream, or some unexplained by them noise etc might be enough to constitute an "experience".)

  25. #125
    The short answer is yes... Herbster's Avatar
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    S7even, have you ever been in love?


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