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  1. #26
    SitePoint Enthusiast rapio's Avatar
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    Looks like I really struck a nerve here!

    I used to be pretty agnostic but I started reading historical documents, got into medicne, and started studying science and I find that there's more evidence God exist than there is he does'nt. Now I can't prove it 100% but as was said earlier you can't prove 100% he does'nt. I'm not going to post it here right now but if anybody wants me to I will.

  2. #27
    Gone Fishing Japhi's Avatar
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    Originally posted by rapio

    ...there's more evidence God exist than there is he does'nt. Now I can't prove it 100% but as was said earlier you can't prove 100% he does'nt. I'm not going to post it here right now but if anybody wants me to I will.
    This should make for some good debate...you gotta unveil your evidence that god exists.

  3. #28
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    There's a book called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" and a sequel "More Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by a self-proclaimed former skeptic. His name is Josh McDowell and he set out to prove that Christianity was a farce and that there was no such thing as God. As he researched and investigated, he could only come to the conclusion that there was in fact a God. His website www.josh.org is a great source of sources for skeptics to look at. Feel free to browse in.

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  4. #29
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Very intelligent guy he is. Making a lot of money, isn't he?!
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

    TinyPlanet.org
    Discuss and Debate World Events, Politics and Religion

  5. #30
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    He's an international speaker and debater as well as having written huge books in this arena. I think he makes a fair amount. Nothing wrong with that. A man of almost 60 years deserves to be financially secure.

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    Aaron Brazell
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  6. #31
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sketch
    Nothing wrong with that.
    I am not saying that there is anything wrong in doing such a business.












    Actually it gave me a "good" idea.
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

    TinyPlanet.org
    Discuss and Debate World Events, Politics and Religion

  7. #32
    Gone Fishing Japhi's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sketch
    There's a book called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" and a sequel "More Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by a self-proclaimed former skeptic. His name is Josh McDowell and he set out to prove that Christianity was a farce and that there was no such thing as God. As he researched and investigated, he could only come to the conclusion that there was in fact a God. His website www.josh.org is a great source of sources for skeptics to look at. Feel free to browse in.

    Sketch
    Sorry Sketch but I wouldn't put to much faith in this clown, my brief stay on his site left me with a bad impression. For instance:

    "But as I dug deeper and deeper into the claims of Christianity, I was shocked. I found facts, not fiction. I found so much evidence that I could only come to one conclusion Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was crucified, He died, and He was resurrected on the third day...He truly is the Son of God, shouldn't you be willing to find out?... To get started, why not order a copy of More Than a Carpenter."

    That to me is a sales pitch, as is the rest of his site. For only $16.95 you can find enlightenment, what a bargain

  8. #33
    Ribbit... Eric.Coleman's Avatar
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    Call me agnostic, call me what you will, but I don't believe I can be classified.

    I believe what I want to, and what I want to believe is several different aspects of different religions..

    There needs to be a 'type' for people of mixed beliefs...
    Eric Coleman
    We're consentratin' on fallin' apart
    We were contenders, now throwin' the fight
    I just wanna believe, I just wanna believe in us

  9. #34
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Japhi


    Sorry Sketch but I wouldn't put to much faith in this clown, my brief stay on his site left me with a bad impression. For instance:

    "But as I dug deeper and deeper into the claims of Christianity, I was shocked. I found facts, not fiction. I found so much evidence that I could only come to one conclusion Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was crucified, He died, and He was resurrected on the third day...He truly is the Son of God, shouldn't you be willing to find out?... To get started, why not order a copy of More Than a Carpenter."

    That to me is a sales pitch, as is the rest of his site. For only $16.95 you can find enlightenment, what a bargain
    LOL...if that's what you think he's saying, then you need to go back and read it again. It's not about making the money...that's just the way he makes a living. It's about showing truth (as he sees it). Actually, I have met this guy several times now and, although I don't agree with everything he says, he's legit. Yes, he is selling something. He's selling the idea of eternal life...and it's not for money. Anyways, you seem to have your mind made up anyways, so I won't argue with you.
    Aaron Brazell
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  10. #35
    ********* Genius Mike's Avatar
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    I've always been one that trusted science, and wanted evindence. i was raised as a christian, but as i grow up, i am presented with more information against god. Of course, religious will tell you its a test. I say its an excuse. I just dont like how inconsistant the "bible" is with what science has "proven" to us today
    Mike
    It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.

  11. #36
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    Smile

    I think it's quite natural to be interested in "what is life", "why I exist", "what's my goal" and such questions. Almost everyone asks those questions in certain periods of his/her life.

    It was quite a long way, as for me, until I found and studied the God's word. I used to study various esotheric books and techniques, but they didn't answer all the things about my life I'd asked. I used to meditate, I attended several lessons just to get to know what's the life about, what is our purpose on the Earth...

    Now I've been studying the Bible and have read a few books about this book and Jesus...and I'm impressed. I see the truth there and my life goes on another way, I feel much better way...

    Mails

  12. #37
    SitePoint Zealot raymo's Avatar
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    The Bible is the most successful work of fiction known to man.

    I believe in science, not god.
    ride it like it's stolen

  13. #38
    SitePoint Addict exhale81's Avatar
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    I believe that every man is a god and every woman is a goddess (or at least has the potential of becoming this)

    (My problem with today's science is that it mostly deals with the things which can be seen and proved so it's always way behind evolution... a bit of imagination is necessary)
    Last edited by exhale81; Aug 15, 2002 at 00:58.
    Sebastien Rosset
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  14. #39
    ********* Genius zweistein's Avatar
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    Originally posted by raymo
    The Bible is the most successful work of fiction known to man.

    I believe in science, not god.
    I respect science, and I don't know how can you believe in science... I believe in God, and respect science, altough I'm not with everything that scientists do. I don't agree with cloning, as one example.

    When I asked my teacher for how long does God exist, she told me that he exists forever. It's a bit hard to believe in something that exists "forever", because forever is something I just can't imagine, but all these thoughts are just tests, and I keep on going through life still believing in God, altough I still don't get some things.
    zweistein.web - tips&tricks for webmasters, music, programming, computers, Python, etc. new!!! English version, too!
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  15. #40
    SitePoint Zealot raymo's Avatar
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    Science and the scientific way of thinking; evidence, proof, rationalisation.

    All these thoughts are [just] tests? What makes you say that?
    ride it like it's stolen

  16. #41
    ********* Genius zweistein's Avatar
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    Originally posted by raymo
    Science and the scientific way of thinking; evidence, proof, rationalisation.

    All these thoughts are [just] tests? What makes you say that?
    1) Yeah, but I still can't see how can you actually BELIEVE in science... It's okay if you agree with it's principles, respect it, or anything else, but really believe in science...

    2) Well, you know, tests if you'll continue believeing in God or not...
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  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Josh McDowell really is a great story. It was actually his university thesis, if memory serves, so he hasn't been "trying to make money" all along, in fact for the longest time his main focus was youth ministry and he didn't make any money at all.

    I don't think he's rich, he's not poor, but if it sounds like a sales pitch that's probably because it is. I mean, if you'd written 15,000 pages worth of books and documentation on a subject and needed to summarize it in 2 paragraphs it might sound like a "pitch" as well

    As far as whether I think these "tests" are really tests, I don't really. I have had my faith challenged 20 times, often I will go out of my way and sometimes even have very serious doubts. However every time I do I come back to God BECAUSE of, how did you put it, "evidence, proof, rationalisation".

    Believing in religion doesn't mean you don't have a brain, in fact I believe it is every religious person's duty to use their brain even more. Logic isn't the enemy anymore than people who don't believe the same things we do are the enemy.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  18. #43
    SitePoint Zealot raymo's Avatar
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    zweistein, I think you took believe the wrong way. I don't mean it as deep as you seem to think.

    Jeremy, care to elaborate on how evidence, proof & rationalisation brought you back to god?
    ride it like it's stolen

  19. #44
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    the belief in God, does not mean the absence of science.

    they can go hand-in-hand.

    I wonder where the notion came from that people believe you have to choose one or the other?

    dang it, I was going to stay out of this thread...sorry..

  20. #45
    SitePoint Zealot raymo's Avatar
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    I didn't suggest they can't.

  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Which time? *L*

    Sometimes, as was the case when I dove into the "controversy" surrounding the Dead Sea Scrolls, it was a matter of realising the controversy was completely based on fiction, even though the logic was sound. Things like "Well, Jesus was a Nazirene" and then building on that started to make sense until you realised Jesus wasn't part of that sect at all and they had no evidence to back that up.

    Other times it was science vs science. I have no problem debating Creation/Evolution with the best of them. This isn't becuase I ignore evidence but because not only do I see no evidence for speciation in evolution (natural selection, etc, I totally see though) but I see a lot for creation. You don't need to believe me (and I'm not going to preach or argue it, as that would be a whole other thread which I have already posted extensively in), but there is actually quite a lot

    Other times it was personal experience. Things like seeing friends get up out of wheelchairs, watching marriages get transformed, seeing people instantly set free from addictions. You get the picture, and I'm trying to stay away from appearing to preach.

    Other times it was hearing other people and what had happened to them and what they'd been through with God.

    None of these things are irrational or anything. Some are scientific evidence and investigation, others are the same as hearing a friend of yours telling you how great a movie is, etc.

    I believe in God because I believe it is true for hundreds of reasons. Very few of those are "faith"-based though, I honestly believe that a decision of this magnitude should always be made with the fullness of your God-given (pun intended, sadly ) ability to think, feel, analyze and perceive.

    Hope that answers your question
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  22. #47
    ********* Genius zweistein's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Golgotha
    the belief in God, does not mean the absence of science.

    they can go hand-in-hand.
    I completely agree with this. And with Jeremy W., too .
    zweistein.web - tips&tricks for webmasters, music, programming, computers, Python, etc. new!!! English version, too!
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  23. #48
    SitePoint Zealot
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    Jeremy W.

    My philosophy has always been that God gave me a perfectly good brain and expects me to use it. Some things, he expects me to do for myself. Other things, he knows I need help with.

    Golgotha,

    It makes perfectly logical sense to me that God and Science go hand in hand. Science (to me) is what God created and uses to create natural order to the universe and all that it contains.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    allie, I agree completely, sorry if I didn't give that impression

    btw, nobody ever uses the " W." in my name, it sounds way too formal. In fact all the staff generally use degrading names
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  25. #50
    SitePoint Zealot
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    jeremy,

    I think we are agreeing to agree? I was basically agreeing with what you said.

    From now on, it's Jeremy! I just as a matter of habit, usually use the posters forum Id. Sometimes, I find that initials are used to differentiate two people with same first names.


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