SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 57
  1. #26
    SitePoint Evangelist TomTees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    553
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ivancosic View Post
    You have to take font size in calculations. Screen guidelines were made when majority of web were in 10px font size, now with em sizes or in general standard of 13 px it's not that big deal which font you use.

    Also formating plays big role here. Big chunk of most readable font will not be that pleasant as several blocks broken by smart formated h3 lines, important stuff highlighted with <strong>, emphasizes, bulleted lists and so on. Line height also plays big role.

    Font is maybe something that comes first in mind but by no meaning you shouldn't stick to one definition, explore, potentials are endless and you wont make masterpieces over night. Read about web typography there are some great articles and you will improve over time. Don't focus on big guys. Check what ordinary but amazing bloggers do.
    Good advice.

    So, do you have some websites that you feel demonstrate what you mentioned above?

    If so, please posts some URL's.


    TomTees

  2. #27
    SitePoint Member ivancosic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Not sure if this many links will work trough, but if you are really into this you should try to google combination of typography and web and you will find abundance of resources.

    http://ilovetypography.com/2008/02/2...eb-typography/
    http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009...nd-techniques/
    http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/ht...eb-typography/
    http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009...should-know-2/
    http://www.markboulton.co.uk/journal...ter-typography

  3. #28
    SitePoint Evangelist TomTees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    553
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ivancosic View Post
    Not sure if this many links will work trough, but if you are really into this you should try to google combination of typography and web and you will find abundance of resources.

    http://ilovetypography.com/2008/02/2...eb-typography/
    http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009...nd-techniques/
    http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/ht...eb-typography/
    http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009...should-know-2/
    http://www.markboulton.co.uk/journal...ter-typography
    Thanks for the links!!


    TomTees

  4. #29
    SitePoint Evangelist Ed Seedhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Victoria, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    592
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Because said companies STILL have no clue how the web even works, which is why their websites are illegible inaccessible bloated trash?
    Thanks for posting this and saving me a lot of trouble saying it less effectively.
    Ed Seedhouse

  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TomTees View Post
    That link takes me to an Adobe page where you have to spend a couple hundred dollars to buy the font.

    So wouldn't that create the exact problem of people not having the font that you describe above?



    TomTees
    Quality fonts aren't usually free. You should look into font replacement techniques (until we can get into WOFF and EOT type solutions) which will allow you to use the font of choice (if you have the license to do so) whether the client has the font or not.

    If you develop your font stack properly, you can state by the best looking but less popular to the best looking most popular fonts.

    font: "Myriad Pro", Calibri, "Microsoft Sans Serif", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif;

    The above would let those who have Myriad Pro to see the element in the desired font, but step down the stack until they reach ones you have a higher chance of having.

    If you understand where we stand in typeface use online, you'll know it's not an ideal situation.

  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    10,283
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    I don't understand what x-height is. You keep bringing it up.
    It's how you measure how "large" a font is... based on the size of that font's lowercase letter "x". That is the x-height.

    So if you have with CSS set a 12px Verdana and then a 12px Arial, same text, you will not only see the differences from things like leading (line-height) and kerning (letter-spacing, except CSS isn't as good at it), but also the actual tallness of the letters is greater in Verdana than Arial, even though you've set them both at 12px with CSS.

    You will notice the same thing with Georgia vs Times New Roman. Georgia has a larger x-height.

    *edit duh I'm a tard, there's a Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-height

    font: "Myriad Pro", Calibri, "Microsoft Sans Serif", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif;
    I try to look around for Mac and popular Linux fonts to put in my stack: on my machine's default settings, the above font-stack is made for just one OS, Windows, so I'd hit sans-serif which would probably give me Free Sans, a free font available on many unixy systems.

    Mac users who install stuff like Outlook for the Mac etc will have more Windows fonts available to them, but it's not a bad idea to have some Mac fonts in your stack anyway.

    If you like the links Ivan gave you (esp ILoveTypogaphy) then you'll also like Jon Tan's page: http://jontangerine.com/ he's also all crazy into typography.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The x-height is the distance in space between the baseline (an imaginary line the text sits on) and the top of a lower-case 'X' (sans it's serifs, if it has them)

    The reason why they use an X is based on the belief that it shared a similar width and height due to it's symmetrical design from a vertical and horizontal perspective.

    Yeah, you can add Mac Fonts as well, but unless you have a tool or that font installed as well, you may not know what your site will look like when using it. The font stack I provided was Windows-centric.

  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    10,283
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Yeah, you can add Mac Fonts as well, but unless you have a tool or that font installed as well, you may not know what your site will look like when using it.
    This is true... however I believe if your site is meant to be used by any and all users, then it's our job to know what it looks like (if only to check readability or, is some word popping out of a box or something).

    To this end I'm (still) saving up for a used Mac. I do test Windows versus Linux, and yeah I've made changes to code based on text differences between the two (same browser!).

  9. #34
    SitePoint Evangelist TomTees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    553
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    It's how you measure how "large" a font is... based on the size of that font's lowercase letter "x". That is the x-height.

    So if you have with CSS set a 12px Verdana and then a 12px Arial, same text, you will not only see the differences from things like leading (line-height) and kerning (letter-spacing, except CSS isn't as good at it), but also the actual tallness of the letters is greater in Verdana than Arial, even though you've set them both at 12px with CSS.

    You will notice the same thing with Georgia vs Times New Roman. Georgia has a larger x-height.
    So it sounds like a greater x-height leads to greater readability?


    If you like the links Ivan gave you (esp ILoveTypogaphy) then you'll also like Jon Tan's page: http://jontangerine.com/ he's also all crazy into typography.
    Just glanced at his site. Not sure about Typography, but the simplicity of his layout and content is awesome! (Definitely gives me some ideas for some other threads I have on SP.)

    Thanks,



    TomTees

  10. #35
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I test for Safari 4, Chrome, Opera 10 Firefox 3 and IE8, but I only have a Windows environment to test on. There is technology out there, like browser cams, which will let you see how your site works on a myriad of OS as well as browsers, but personally, I charge clients if they want compatibility with older browsers and or OSes,

  11. #36
    SitePoint Evangelist Ed Seedhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Victoria, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    592
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Perhaps now would be a good time to link to an explanation of why Verdana is a bad font to use on the web.

    And I just add that if you think fonts are particularly important for web pages you are deluded.
    Ed Seedhouse

  12. #37
    SQL Consultant gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    r937's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    39,341
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse View Post
    Perhaps now would be a good time to link to an explanation of why Verdana is a bad font to use on the web.
    his argument is that verdana "looks, for most people, unnecessarily large and unattractive"

    that's poppycock (a polite way of saying it's just his opinion), unsupported in any way on that page
    rudy.ca | @rudydotca
    Buy my SitePoint book: Simply SQL
    "giving out my real stuffs"

  13. #38
    SitePoint Evangelist TomTees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    553
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse View Post
    And I just add that if you think fonts are particularly important for web pages you are deluded.
    Pretty strong term...

    (Why does everything on the Internet have to turn "personal"? Even on Christmas Day...)

    My original post asked about the differences between Sans-Serif and Serif fonts.

    Where did it say anything about font being the #1 concern as your comment implies?



    TomTees

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TomTees View Post
    Pretty strong term...

    (Why does everything on the Internet have to turn "personal"? Even on Christmas Day...)

    TomTees
    I have asked myself this question over a billion times. I've yet to come to any logical reason.

    If you state that it is YOUR OWN OPINION that "this is good" or that "this is bad", people will still take personal offense if they believe the opposite. Not only do they take personal offense, but they also then take up the banner to defend the honor of their own opinion.

    These types of people flock to forums (which is counter-intuitive because their incapability of allowing others to have opinions that differ from theirs puts them at constant ends with people due to the open-nature of forum discussion.

    What gets me most is that they want others to respect their opinion, yet they can't do the same for others. This is the mentality of a child. (The world revolves around 'me'. I cannot see beyond myself or the needs of others)

    I don't know, maybe they don't understand what an opinion is. "McDonalds is the worst food on the planet" is an opinion. It is not fact by the sheer facet that it is an opinion. Yet those who love McDonalds will have assumed you just slapped them in the face and fight you as if you directly insulted them.

    ...this ignorance does not take a break; even on Christmas.

  15. #40
    Non-Member bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Keene, NH
    Posts
    3,760
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My question would be why the blue blazes do people take innocuous comments like that one as a personal affront?!?

    But I encounter that bull all the blasted time the moment I deal with anyone from outside New England... It's like the rest of the world is filled with thin skinned wussies who either can't take a joke or just spend their time looking for an excuse to get upset over NOTHING.

    It's why half the time I spend online I feel like telling people to either grow a pair, or borrow Hillary's.

  16. #41
    Mouse catcher silver trophy Stevie D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    5,892
    Mentioned
    123 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TomTees View Post
    Is there someone that lists all of the Common Fonts and has a picture of each - so you see what they should look like? (Almost like an "Online Library of Computer Fonts?!)
    A good place to start would be http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=web+safe+fonts

  17. #42
    SitePoint Evangelist TomTees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    553
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by aaron.martone View Post
    I have asked myself this question over a billion times. I've yet to come to any logical reason.

    If you state that it is YOUR OWN OPINION that "this is good" or that "this is bad", people will still take personal offense if they believe the opposite. Not only do they take personal offense, but they also then take up the banner to defend the honor of their own opinion.
    Aaron, I am not sure if you are taking my side or Ed's, however, what I am saying is this...

    Ed's statement...

    "if you think fonts are particularly important for web pages you are deluded."
    ...is a criticism on "me". (Now I am "deluded" which is related to "delusional"...)

    Whereas saying something like...

    "Thinking that fonts are particularly important for web pages is deluded thinking in my opinion"
    ...is a criticism on an approach versus a criticism of a person.

    Moreso, why am "I" deluded/delusional when my original post was just asking what people think about using Sans-Serif versus Serif fonts on the web??


    These types of people flock to forums (which is counter-intuitive because their incapability of allowing others to have opinions that differ from theirs puts them at constant ends with people due to the open-nature of forum discussion.
    I agree with you here. Why else come to a forum if you aren't open to other ways of thinking?!


    What gets me most is that they want others to respect their opinion, yet they can't do the same for others. This is the mentality of a child. (The world revolves around 'me'. I cannot see beyond myself or the needs of others)
    We are all guilty of this at times, but some people just excel at it more than others! (Most of them are on my Ignore List.)


    I don't know, maybe they don't understand what an opinion is. "McDonalds is the worst food on the planet" is an opinion. It is not fact by the sheer facet that it is an opinion. Yet those who love McDonalds will have assumed you just slapped them in the face and fight you as if you directly insulted them.
    From reading you entire post, I think you are taking my side, but the way this is worded it sounds more like you are calling me out and taking Ed's side.


    ...this ignorance does not take a break; even on Christmas.
    I agree. *Everything* seems to be "personal" in modern society.



    TomTees

  18. #43
    SitePoint Evangelist Ed Seedhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Victoria, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    592
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TomTees View Post
    Pretty strong term...

    (Why does everything on the Internet have to turn "personal"? Even on Christmas Day...)
    Ah well then, I apologize for saying what I meant. Perhaps now on I should say the opposite of what I mean and fall in with the common wisdom and never question it.

    Nah, I think I'll stand by my opinion because I'll feel better about myself. If you think that font faces are particularly important on the web I do, I am afraid, feel and believe that you are deluded.
    Ed Seedhouse

  19. #44
    SitePoint Evangelist TomTees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    553
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse View Post
    Ah well then, I apologize for saying what I meant. Perhaps now on I should say the opposite of what I mean and fall in with the common wisdom and never question it.

    Nah, I think I'll stand by my opinion because I'll feel better about myself. If you think that font faces are particularly important on the web I do, I am afraid, feel and believe that you are deluded.
    Care to show me where I said or implied that?


    TomTees

  20. #45
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Tom

    I'm agreeing with you. When you use an absolute like "People who _______ are ______." can be taken as a personal assault if you qualify in that group.

    For example, a guy commented on what the American Government has been doing and he says "Americans are morons." Being an American, I said "At least I'm not so stupid as to assume that the actions of a select thousand or so people completely mirror those of the 310,000,000 people who live in this country."

    If he had, instead, said "Some of the things the American Government have done are moronic" I think MANY less people would take that as a personal offense; because you're not just specifying that Americans are 1:1 morons.

    Verdana isn't a bad font. Absolutes are rarely ever true.

  21. #46
    Non-Member bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Keene, NH
    Posts
    3,760
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by aaron.martone View Post
    Absolutes are rarely ever true.
    Well there's your problem -- you're treating generalizations as absolutes... You're treating a statement of opinion as an absolute dictator on high... Instead of treating it as what it is

    SOMEONE STATING THEIR OPINION.

    GOD FORBID!

  22. #47
    SitePoint Evangelist Ed Seedhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Victoria, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    592
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by aaron.martone View Post
    For example, a guy commented on what the American Government has been doing and he says "Americans are morons."
    Well, but you must admit that half of them have below average IQ's. Well, depending on what exactly you mean by "average" of course.

    Verdana isn't a bad font. Absolutes are rarely ever true.
    Maybe you could show me where I said or implied that Verdana is a "bad" font? Or perhaps apologize for misquoting me?
    Ed Seedhouse

  23. #48
    SitePoint Evangelist Ed Seedhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Victoria, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    592
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TomTees View Post
    Care to show me where I said or implied that?
    Care to show me where I said or implied that you did say that?
    Ed Seedhouse

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    10,283
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    So it sounds like a greater x-height leads to greater readability?
    In and of itself, not necessarily. If you look at Verdana, you see they did other things to help (opening up letters with inner space like a's and e's, kerning that doesn't let letters next to each other like "fi" touch or overlap). I would maybe say IN GENERAL that larger fonts with more open letters are easier to read but that does easily start getting into opinion territory (there is user data showing what is more readable* but what people prefer to read in differs greatly).

    Rudy already beat me to it, but this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed
    Perhaps now would be a good time to link to an explanation of why Verdana is a bad font to use on the web.
    I think the author's first argument is bad, and the second one more "what web devs should be aware of" rather than "Verdana is a bad font to use because people mis-use it".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed
    Maybe you could show me where I said or implied that Verdana is a "bad" font?
    Maybe you just wanted to make sure the caveats were known? That's a good thing, yes.
    But,
    1. Large and unattractive will never beat out readability. (my opinion though : )


    2.That people then make the fonts smaller by setting the body size to something smaller than 100% is someone being a bad (or ignorant?) web developer: The author IS correclty pointing out the caveat with larger fonts... when making your font stack, make them with similarly-sized fonts... and make sure your base font is indeed large enough for those users who don't have ANY of your fonts and may default to a smaller system font themselves.

    I use verdana in my body font stacks regularly, because it's readable. I mix it with other large fonts like DejaVu Sans and Lucida Grande.

    Similarly, I keep in mind that Georgia is way bigger than Times New Roman. Is that a reason not to use Georgia? I'd say "no", though the way it makes numbers dip down below the baseline may be an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by webmatters
    On the web however the reader is free to set a font and size which he/she finds legible, and there is no need whatever for a web author to set a different one on the grounds of greater legibility
    Unfortunately we have a large popular of users who don't know how to use their browsers. They don't know about text enlargement. Now, I do agree with the argument that they *should* learn how to use their browsers, and do use this as an argument against Javascript text-enlargement widgets (which people argue are necessary for sites targeting seniors for example), but I'd rather a larger, readable font and people not knowing how to make it smaller, than the other way around. I'm also hitting those using high-rez screens who also tend to see web text as too small simply due to screen resolution. Again, they can always make it "prettier" by text-reduction, but I'm still safer starting out with readability.

    *I've run into it, but I'm looking for it now since I figure someone's going to want it, lawlz.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron
    Verdana isn't a bad font. Absolutes are rarely ever true.
    True, and because of this argument going on above, I'd say the best way to assume good faith in pure text like on this forum, I would say everyone's better off assuming generalisations aren't absolutes.

    'Course then everyone can jump me when I say "never" and "always", lawlz. : ) Which I do a lot.

  25. #50
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Well there's your problem -- you're treating generalizations as absolutes... You're treating a statement of opinion as an absolute dictator on high... Instead of treating it as what it is

    SOMEONE STATING THEIR OPINION.

    GOD FORBID!
    All poorly executed sarcasm aside (so you don't continue to mis-communicate)

    If you SAY "__________ is/are ____________" that is not the same as saying "I think/believe __________ is/are ___________"

    The first is an absolute statement, not an opinion; the latter states what you're saying is your own personal belief.

    Every chance for communication in a text-only medium is a chance for mis-communication. We can't tell someone's inflection with text, even with the power of the emoticon.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •