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  1. #26
    Non-Member Kalon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmw57 View Post
    Instead focus on the parts of your own organisation that are weak enough to allow such leaks to occur, and potentially (though unlikely) improve your business practices so that there are no grounds for such leaks to even exist.
    exactly - totally agree

    that is along similar lines to what I said earlier

    maybe the only way to clamp down on this, given the complexity and potential impracticality of having international laws governing leaks is for each country to make laws that severley discourage "inappropriate" leaks by their people. This should severley restrict the supply of leaks. But then we get into the "grey" and controvertial area of what is "inappropriate"

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalon View Post
    that is along similar lines to what I said earlier

    maybe the only way to clamp down on this, given the complexity and potential impracticality of having international laws governing leaks is for each country to make laws that severley discourage "inappropriate" leaks by their people. This should severley restrict the supply of leaks.
    Most countries already have such laws in place, which in this particular case have been applied against the guy who leaked the cables several months ago now.
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  3. #28
    Non-Member Kalon's Avatar
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    maybe, but obviously the penalties are no where near strong enough deterants in all of them.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalon View Post
    maybe, but obviously the penalties are no where near strong enough deterants in all of them.
    So what happens when the death sentence is not a strong enough incentive?

    There has to be other answers than just plain escalation of the penalty.
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  5. #30
    Non-Member Kalon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmw57 View Post
    So what happens when the death sentence is not a strong enough incentive?
    I guess the same thing that happens when people continue committing crimes now for which the death penalty exist.

    So it begs the question, why have the death penalty? but that's so a whole another thread.

    Luckily in Oz, we don't have a death penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by pmw57 View Post
    There has to be other answers than just plain escalation of the penalty.
    yep agree.

    increasing penalties, although it might deter some, can only be a part of the solution.

  6. #31
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    Shaun(OfTheDead)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalon View Post
    In principle I support the concept but human nature being what it is you will get disgruntled face less cowards who will use their access to normally "classified" information to embarass, get back at, or whatever, those they feel have treated them harshly or unfairly.
    Are the motives that shallow, you think?

    Because some of the information has been leaked at tremendous personal risk to the leaker, from my understanding. I don't think risks like those would have been taken unless the source really believed others needed to know (at least I hope not, anyways).

    For example, My Lai in Vietnam exposed by Ronald Ridenhour's letter.



    What leads you to think that it's a Pandora's Box, and is that a good thing, a bad thing, or just a thing?

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  7. #32
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    What this first reminded me of, by the way, is the hacker who uncovered the University of East Anglia's climate research e-mails.

    I suppose we can get into the morality or immorality of hacking in another thread, but I think the principles behind that incident and this thread's topic are similar.

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  8. #33
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    Shaun(OfTheDead)'s Avatar
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    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead)
    For example, My Lai in Vietnam exposed by Ronald Ridenhour's letter.
    I think I worded that badly. It sounded as though My Lai was a wikileak.

    I meant My Lai as an example of a risky "leak" which proved valuable for others to know at that time.

    I think some of these wikileaks might one day be considered in that category, is what I meant.
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  9. #34
    Non-Member Kalon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    Are the motives that shallow, you think?
    I think human nature being what it is, for a minority of people I think that will be the motivation behind their leak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    What leads you to think that it's a Pandora's Box, and is that a good thing, a bad thing, or just a thing?
    I think now that people are getting a taste for "WikiLeaks", it is here to stay in one form or another. As I mentioned earlier, I don't like it in its present form with the uncertainty of what should or should not be published and so ideally I would like to see it shut down until the issues mentioned in this thread plus others are resolved and then resurrected. But obviously that is much easier said than done.

    I just think that if left as is, again with human nature being what it is, in the long run more evil will come out of it than good.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalon View Post
    I just think that if left as is, again with human nature being what it is, in the long run more evil will come out of it than good.
    You're right, bad things do happen. But burying your head in the sand doesn't stop bad things from happening. Shutting down organisations like Wikileaks does not make everything better. It only allows companies to continue doing bad things without scrutiny to keep them in check.

    You cannot stop the planet and get off, as you were saying earlier. This is our planet for better or for worse. Peoples opinions on how to make it better differ widely. Exposing bad things to the cleansing light of public scrutiny is only one way of many, to help improve things.
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  11. #36
    Non-Member Kalon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmw57 View Post
    You're right, bad things do happen. But burying your head in the sand doesn't stop bad things from happening. Shutting down organisations like Wikileaks does not make everything better. It only allows companies to continue doing bad things without scrutiny to keep them in check.
    As I mentioned in my first post (or maybe 2nd), I support the concept but not the current way it is being done.

    If it's left as is, my gut feeling is that more evil than good will come from it in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by pmw57 View Post
    You cannot stop the planet and get off, as you were saying earlier. This is our planet for better or for worse. Peoples opinions on how to make it better differ widely. Exposing bad things to the cleansing light of public scrutiny is only one way of many, to help improve things.
    Totally agree and I think most people would as well.

    The issue is as I see it , and obviously by many others around the world, is this the right way to go about it or is there a better way of doing it?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalon View Post
    The issue is as I see it , and obviously by many others around the world, is this the right way to go about it or is there a better way of doing it?
    This situation reminds me of a quote from a long ago about democracy:

    There is no such thing as the "perfect form of government" on earth, but any other form of government produces even less desirable results than democracy. Until today, no other form of government has been invented that could regulate public affairs better than democracy - Winston Churchill
    So if you don't like the current way of doing things, it's up to you to suggest a better solution than what is being done already.
    Come up with some better ideas. What better ways are there of doing it?
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  13. #38
    Non-Member Kalon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmw57 View Post
    So if you're going to say that you don't like the current way of doing things, it's up to you to give us a better solution than what is being done already.
    Come up with some better ideas. What better ways are there of doing it?
    Are you asking me personally or everyone else on the planet who is also wondering if there is a better way of doing it?

    If you would like me to solve it on my own, let me finish fixing world poverty first and then I'll have some time to work on the Wikileaks spotfire

    btw - what's my deadline for a solution?

    ps... I posted earlier some food for thought ideas I brainstormed

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalon View Post
    Are you asking me personally or everyone else on the planet who is also wondering if there is a better way of doing it?

    If you would like me to solve it on my own, let me finish fixing world poverty first and then I'll have some time to work on the Wikileaks spotfire

    btw - what's my deadline for a solution?
    Oh, I see no trouble with sorting out world poverty thing first before taxing yourself with the whole Wikileaks situation.
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  15. #40
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmw57 View Post
    IANAL but copyright infringement is a private undertaking. Governments do not initiate such proceedings, not should it.
    I suppose so. But shouldn't it really? If all those leaked documents were copyrighted it would be very clear what laws are broken. Classified information is not public property, then whose property is it? Anyway, it comes down to the fact that someone publishes the information that they have no right to. Legally that can mean different laws, but morally that means the same thing.

    Now the question is what about the information that the public should know? The corruption, etc. it reveals is a good thing, right? Then it can't be immoral? I don't think so. It's a war - there's nothing moral in a war.
    Saul

  16. #41
    Barefoot on the Moon! silver trophy Force Flow's Avatar
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    Documents and intellectual property of private organizations are the property of those organizations. Governments are not private organizations. They are public.

    The system of classification/declassification controls the dissemination of government documents, but essentially, everything/anything can become public record.
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  17. #42
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Well, isn't that the same thing? Private property can also become public if the copyright holder chooses to do so. Classified documents can only become public if the government chooses to declassify them. But if someone does that for them against their will, they're breaking a law. The laws are different, but the moral principles are the same.
    Saul

  18. #43
    Barefoot on the Moon! silver trophy Force Flow's Avatar
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    Government documents were never owned by a private entity to begin with. There's a difference between ownership and confidentiality.

    This is oversimplified, but technically, any citizen with the proper clearance can request to see anything at or below their clearance level.
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  19. #44
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    I understand that but my point is that not everyone can access it (hence the issue with wikileaks). And my answer to the OP question (one of them anyway), what do we think about its morality, is based on that.
    Saul

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by php_daemon
    I understand that but my point is that not everyone can access it (hence the issue with wikileaks). And my answer to the OP question (one of them anyway), what do we think about its morality, is based on that.
    So what about retaliation then?

    Suppose the leaking of the classified document is to retaliate against something already immoral being done by the organisation?

    Then would the leaking of the document still be immoral?

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  21. #46
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Retaliating by immoral means is still immoral. It leads to war and there's nothing moral about war.
    Saul

  22. #47
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    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

  23. #48
    phpLD Fanatic bronze trophy dvduval's Avatar
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    Overall, I love what is happening with Wikileaks, but it is important that we have a culture of trust, and sometimes trust involves not sharing information. For example, if I have a great idea and have devoted months to it, I need to be able to trust employees to stay with me and develop the idea. There are many other examples of trust involving not sharing information.

    But on a larger scale, we have a problem now with "noise" being louder than "truth" and people are able to hide behind lies. Wikileaks may help us if we can learn to actually seek the truth. I'm not convinced yet that we have turned over that stone yet, but I hope we do.

  24. #49
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    This is a VERY interesting thread, keep it up.... and anyone who is not a Mentor/Advisor can contribute as well, just so everyone knows

  25. #50
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    Whenever there is a puppet, there are controlling hands on the levers.

    Wikileaks is part of the broader power shift from the United States to China.

    The United States is a deeply divided nation. Racism and poverty is evident in every major city in the United States. The United States Government has failed its own citizens and is no longer trusted in their self-assumed global policing role.

    But the alternative may end up being worse. We may be headed for a power vacuum or an increasingly active China.

    Wikileaks is merely a pimple on the surface of what is boiling below - a shift in the balance of power.

    How's your Mandarin?


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