Creation vs. Evolution (2).

[Elledan]

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[TWTCommish]

Juz said it well - a fellow Christian once described it to a younger group this way: "God loves us, he is our father...but he is clean, and we're filthy with sin...and he cannot touch us while we are dirty...we must be cleansed first."

Personally I think cleaning myself off before spending time with the creator of the universe is a reasonable request.

[Juznuts]

TWTCommish
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Personally I think cleaning myself off before spending time with the creator of the universe is a reasonable request.
-----------

Juz a note to non-christians, you don't have to try and clean yourself before becoming a believer. It's like telling a child, don't go and bath until you clean yourself, or don't go into the water until you learn how to swim. I guess I could say that Jesus Christ is our bath, and He washes away our filth with His Blood, and we are make pure!

God definitely good, and much more. What more, He's amazing! Oh yar, while I'm at it, I just wanna add this point. Christianity is not a religion, its a personal relationship with God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! Religions on the whole makes you work for your salvation, and sacrifice for your God. But Christianity, aww man, Jesus died for you and I. We had no sacrifices we could make. He did it all. Christianity all depends on God! Ain't God good?

WoW!
Justina

[Caesar]

Yeah, he's great huh !!
Praise the Lord !

Originally posted by Juznuts
TWTCommish
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Personally I think cleaning myself off before spending time with the creator of the universe is a reasonable request.
-----------

Juz a note to non-christians, you don't have to try and clean yourself before becoming a believer. It's like telling a child, don't go and bath until you clean yourself, or don't go into the water until you learn how to swim. I guess I could say that Jesus Christ is our bath, and He washes away our filth with His Blood, and we are make pure!

God definitely good, and much more. What more, He's amazing! Oh yar, while I'm at it, I just wanna add this point. Christianity is not a religion, its a personal relationship with God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! Religions on the whole makes you work for your salvation, and sacrifice for your God. But Christianity, aww man, Jesus died for you and I. We had no sacrifices we could make. He did it all. Christianity all depends on God! Ain't God good?

WoW!
Justina

[JRS385]

Does God have a gender?

[Chris Roane]

Man, never did I expect this thread to be brought alive again. I never thought this thread would become so popular, when I originally posted it.

Good explanations, Juznuts!

Chris Roane

[TWTCommish]

Originally posted by JRS385
Does God have a gender?

Yes, God is male...sort of. He is a man in the sense that we males were created in his image...I don't think it works to just say "God is a guy"...but yes, if it comes down to one gender against the other, God is male...Jesus, that is.

[Hierophant]

If God (not Jesus, Jesus is not God but God's son and half mortal even going by the bible) is OMNIPOTENT, how can you be sure that God is male? Wouldn't God be able to be male, female or other on a whim? I mean that is the definition of OMNIPOTENT or all powerful isn't it? If a being is All Powerful they could be, do, see, change whatever they want. Of course if God can't do this, it means that God is not OMNIPOTENT which brings the question of why follow God if God has been delivering false advertising all these millenium.

Don't you think it would be better to say the God is simply God and gender doesn't matter, I personally think its arrogant of the men of this species to think that they are superior and that everything is a Patriarchy even the divine. Man or Woman, it doesn't matter we're all equal on this world. Did you ever think that since Man is capitalized in the bible that it means Mankind as a whole instead of just one pathetic lifeform? One man is nothing but Mankind is a great force capable of great deeds.

But as far as creation vs. Evolution is concerned I believe something totally different and truly believe that there are grave misinterpretations in the Old Testament (only true part of the bible worth reading because the Divine is all but forgotten in the New). But since I have no proof and there will never be any proof as what remains of the original scrolls are hidden from Mankind by a greedy organization, it hardly bears stating my beliefs.

The fact of the matter is that whether you believe in Creationism or Evolution, its because of belief and nothing will change that because neither have been proven and neither never will be proven because our life time is so short. Maybe in the future when we have the capability to communicate and meet with the Divine's other creations on other planets then we will be able to learn the truth.

[TWTCommish]

Much to address.

Originally posted by wluke

If God (not Jesus, Jesus is not God but God's son and half mortal even going by the bible) is OMNIPOTENT, how can you be sure that God is male? Wouldn't God be able to be male, female or other on a whim? I mean that is the definition of OMNIPOTENT or all powerful isn't it? If a being is All Powerful they could be, do, see, change whatever they want. Of course if God can't do this, it means that God is not OMNIPOTENT which brings the question of why follow God if God has been delivering false advertising all these millenium.

I didn't say he couldn't be...just that he isn't. I see your point about omnipotence...however in such a way omnipotence has to imply less than TOTAL power. It comes back to that old mind-teaser: Can God make a stone so big he can't lift it? No, of course not, because he can lift any stone...God CANNOT do absolutely anything. I believe he is incapable of evil or wrong as well...he cannot do wrong because it is not in his nature...perhaps being female is not in his nature either...I'm not sure, just my opinion.

Originally posted by wluke

Don't you think it would be better to say the God is simply God and gender doesn't matter, I personally think its arrogant of the men of this species to think that they are superior and that everything is a Patriarchy even the divine. Man or Woman, it doesn't matter we're all equal on this world. Did you ever think that since Man is capitalized in the bible that it means Mankind as a whole instead of just one pathetic lifeform? One man is nothing but Mankind is a great force capable of great deeds.

I don't know what you mean by superior. Christians believe (or OUGHT to believe, at least) that Men tend to have the final say...but that's IT! I know this isn't very politically correct...but don't get me wrong. When I marry I do not plan to dictate and over-rule my wife...I plan to compromise...so no flaming here!

And yes, I do think "Man" usually refers to Mankind on the whole...unfortunatly I've known women who are insulted by this...

Originally posted by wluke

The fact of the matter is that whether you believe in Creationism or Evolution, its because of belief and nothing will change that because neither have been proven and neither never will be proven because our life time is so short. Maybe in the future when we have the capability to communicate and meet with the Divine's other creations on other planets then we will be able to learn the truth.

Interesting statement...I for one am torn over the possibility of intelligent human-like life on other planets. It does seem likely...but then again it also seems fairly likely that we may never reach them...it also seems like it might be inconsistent with The Bible (I could be wrong).

[Elledan]

Originally posted by TWTCommish

Originally posted by wluke

The fact of the matter is that whether you believe in Creationism or Evolution, its because of belief and nothing will change that because neither have been proven and neither never will be proven because our life time is so short. Maybe in the future when we have the capability to communicate and meet with the Divine's other creations on other planets then we will be able to learn the truth.

Interesting statement...I for one am torn over the possibility of intelligent human-like life on other planets. It does seem likely...but then again it also seems fairly likely that we may never reach them...it also seems like it might be inconsistent with The Bible (I could be wrong).

Through history, many things have proven be inconsistent with the bible. Like:

-The Earth is flat.
-The Earth is about 6000 years old.
-The Earth is the center of this solarsystem
-Not all species on Earth were created instantly. Many of those species have never even seen each other (Dinosaurs and Mammoths for example). The dinosaurs dissapeared for the Earth's surface about 265 million years ago, while us Humans (who exist for about 500,000 years) have even hunted Mammoths (and maybe even made them undergo the same fate as the dinosaurs).

It isn't unlikely that reality and the bible will proof to have more inconsistenties in the future.

PS: I know that I forgot a whole list of inconsistenties, so please forgive me I only wanted to post a few of the most obvious ones here.

[Juznuts]

Elledan
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Through history, many things have proven be inconsistent with the bible. Like:

-The Earth is flat.
-The Earth is about 6000 years old.
-The Earth is the center of this solarsystem
-Not all species on Earth were created instantly. Many of those species have never even seen each other (Dinosaurs and Mammoths for example). The dinosaurs dissapeared for the Earth's surface about 265 million years ago, while us Humans (who exist for about 500,000 years) have even hunted Mammoths (and maybe even made them undergo the same fate as the dinosaurs).

It isn't unlikely that reality and the bible will proof to have more inconsistenties in the future.
----------

Hey. that's a very heavy accusation to be made of the Bible. But since this is a discussion board, its okie I guess. By the way, If accusations be made, could references be given?

1. The Bible never mentions the earth is flat. In fact, long before the people knew the Earth was round, the Bible stated it! I can give scriptural references if anyone wants them. Sure some Olden day Christian may have said the Earth was flat, but that's not the same as the Bible saying it!

2. I can say that no one really knows how old the Earth is. That is not something Science can determine. Science have been proven to be faulty here and there, but never the Bible. Science thinks that oil which takes millions of years to form, should not have any traces of carbon-14 but there is, if anyone bothers to test them. Let's face it, no one can say definitely how old the Universe is. We can believe in something, but there's no way to proof it. Don't forget that Dating Methods are made on Assumptions, and the Billions of years, is due to the fact that Scientist would like to thing that the theory of Evolution is true, and this requires lots of time.

3. No comments. I'm not very into this field.

4. Now the topic of dinosaurs is ridiculous. Bisons used to roam the US in the past, but now you hardly see any ( or are they extinct? ) Are you then to say that these creatures lived millions of years ago? Let's remember that when we dig up fossils, they don't come with labels which say, "I'm 65 million years old!" In fact, Think about it: How many times have Scientist declare a species extinct, only to have them appear some place they never bothered looking? ( In fact, I'm pretty amazed as to how an animal can even be declared extinct! ) There are lots of evidence that our ancestors knew this magnificent beasts ... let me name a few:

1. Dinosaurs have never disappeared from history. The term dinosaur was only invented in 1841. So what were they called before that? Consider the interesting question of dragon legends. Most ancient cultures have stories or artwork of dragons that strongly resemble dinosaurs. The World Book Encyclopedia states that:*

" The dragons of legend are strangely like actual creatures that have lived in the past. They are much like the great reptiles [dinosaurs] which inhabited the earth long before man is supposed to have appeared on earth. Dragons were generally evil and destructive. Every country had them in its mythology.*"

The simplest and most obvious explanation for so many common descriptions of dragons from around the world is that man once knew the dinosaurs. The Bible makes mention of the behemoth and the leviathan in Job 40:15 - 42:34 which are what we would today call dinosaurs. They are not the elephant hippo or crocodiles as most commentaries will indicate, becoz elephants and hippos do not have tails like the cedar tree, and crocodile do not breathe out fire!

2. On April 25, 1977, a Japanese fishing ship, off the east coast of New Zealand, caught a huge monster that had been dead for about a month. From a depth of 900 feet, the foul-smelling animal was hauled on board and disengaged from the*net. One crew member was alert enough to take five photographs, one of which is shown on the left. The rotting corpse weighed 4,000 pounds and was 32 feet long. A piece of its flipper was cut off before the ship's captain had the putrid carcass thrown overboard to avoid contaminating the ship's cargo of fresh fish.

Check here for a picture: http://justina.per.sg/dino1.jpg

The Jap governement even commerated this discovery with a stamp: http://justina.per.sg/dino6.jpg

3. Scientists don't have explanations as to what happen to the dinosaurs. The Bible does! Noah's Flood, approx 4000+ years ago, wipe out all animals outside the Ark. Those dinosaurs on the ark ( believed to be babies ) might have trouble adapting to the change in weather climate after that, but some certainly survived!

4. Icas stones http://justina.per.sg/dino4.jpg have paintings of dinosaurs before.

5. Nessie, u think if she exists she wouldn't be a dino? I mean to me, anything that big can be defined as a dino.

6. Tribes that live along the congo swamp, they can tell you that these dinos live in the swamps. They are not called t-rex or bracho ... they have their own names. Tell you what, if you are brave enuf, go in and check it our yourself. If you could get a pic of a real living dino, you would be really really RICH! There are many dino sightings made by 1000s of people.

The list goes on man. One day I'm going to compile a website with these evidences!

Check out these other pictures ... they are all on dinos:
http://justina.per.sg/dino2.jpg
http://justina.per.sg/dino3.jpg
http://justina.per.sg/dino5.jpg

Okay, pple may accuse me of doctoring the images or whatever, ( i don't know how to do it thou ... ) but @ least I provide evidence (kinda) instead of just accusing.

Sorry for this long post. I would have written more, but I'll spare you guys the agony

You know, I believe saying dinos existed 65 million years ago, is the devils tatic to trick people into believing that creation did not happen. Remember folks, check out the evidences before you start believing something. Better than just eating everything that you are fed with ... you know like if you are a fish, you eat the bait, the hook, the rod, and also the fisherman ... haha ... okay then God Bless You All!

Justina

[Edited by Juznuts on 09-13-2000 at 03:12 AM]

[Elledan]

Sorry, but I the server (justina.per.sg) doesn't exist or is unreacheable...

YOU might want to visit this site:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ (thanks to Peter Hibbit!)

(yes, this site is up and running )
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I've always found myself wondering why Christians are acting this way. They must see that there are many other theories. Why concentrating on one (IMO very unlikely) theory when there are so many options?

The Truth Is Out There...

[Elledan]

Originally posted by Juznuts

6. Tribes that live along the congo swamp, they can tell you that these dinos live in the swamps. They are not called t-rex or bracho ... they have their own names. Tell you what, if you are brave enuf, go in and check it our yourself. If you could get a pic of a real living dino, you would be really really RICH! There are many dino sightings made by 1000s of people.

You mean like the Monster of Loch Ness?

These are just stories: nobody has ever taken a picture of a living dino, unless you're referring to a Crocodile (or a Lizard), since that's a Real Dino.

[TWTCommish]

1. C'mon Elledan: you've now TWICE on these boards simply said "these speicies didn't live together"...without any supporting evidence at all! I know I can't get away with that...

2. You seemed to claim that the Bible made things inconsistent with what we know now...earth being flat, etc. This is incorrect and you gave no evidence for it as well...and I do not see you acknowleding this or defending it.

3. The server is up now...I don't know if I believe that that is a "dinosaur", seems unlikely, but I just don't know.

[Elledan]

I still can't reach the server. It must be because I'm in Europe...

I'm not used to give evidence about common scientific facts who are accepted by rational people.
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The first guy I meet in reality who start talking that way to me will find himself in a hospital when he awakes after 5 1/2 years of coma.

Yes, I accept the scientific 'theory' since all of the other theories seem like nonsense to me.
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I've a lot of patience, and I almost never angry, but this is exactly the way to accomplish this: denying obvious facts.

I'm sorry to have offended the Christians on the whole world, but sometimes you can't stay friendly all the time.

[TWTCommish]

There you go again...now Christians are irrational?

So you like to use the argument that a lot of Christians have screwed up in the past, and constantly imply that that must reflect on the religion itself...but yet here you are bad-mouthing Christians.

I don't expect you to agree with me...but irrational? Illogical? Do I say these things about you?

Bottom line is you seem to have less respect for my religion than I do yours (ironic...shouldn't Christians be the narrow-minded ones), and you're not providing much evidence to support your claims.

I also don't understand much of your last post...what about a coma? Are you saying I'm making you mad?

[Peter Hibbit]

Damn, I nearly managed it, I nearly stayed off this thread, but I just couldn't...

I just wanted to answer this point that Juznuts brought up...

The Bible never mentions the earth is flat. In fact, long before the people knew the Earth was round, the Bible stated it! I can give scriptural references if anyone wants them.

Here are a few quotes from the bible regarding the earth...

The earth is stable and does not move. 1 Sam.2:8, 1 Chr.16:30; Job 9:6, 38:4-6; Ps.96:10, 104:5, Is.13:10, Mic.6:2
If so, then it must not spin on its axis or travel about the sun.

Heaven is set upon pillars that tremble when God gets mad. Job 26:11

The sun moves around the earth. Psalms 19:4-5, Is.13:10

According to the Isaiah, the moon produces its own light and the earth does not move. Is.13:10

The stone became "a great mountain" that "filled the whole earth." This could only be possible on a flat, disc-shaped earth. Dan.2:35

I can give scriptural references if anyone wants them.

Yes, please!

Peter

[TWTCommish]

If you yourself say that the Bible should not be taken literally, than those passages should not be either...which one is it?

[Peter Hibbit]

I don't take the bible at all!

But if someone uses it to make an argument I think that it is valid to use it to counter that argument. Don't you?



Juznuts says that the bible said the world was round long before scientists did. I'm saying it didn't and am using the same source as he is. I have offered my argument with extracts now they must do the same.

(I KNEW I shouldn't have gotten into this subject again).

Have you visited http://www.scepticism-inc.com ?

Peter

[Elledan]

When God flooded the Earth, all creatures died, except Noach and his arch full of 554,729 million species. After the water had 'gone away' (to where?!?) the species were released and everybody was happy? NOT.

Like I've stated before, one male and one female of one specie are not enough to create a healthy population, so ALL species would have died (except every fish, since they weren't drowned ) and the earth would have been empty.

And there was Noach with his wife. Two people who make a whole population of (healthy) humans. Just like with Adam and Eve? One time ok, maybe they were VERY lucky, but a second time?

Very important point:

When the Earth was flooded, every trace of other religions must have vanished from the Earth's surface.

Big Problem:

No religion we know of today has vanished that way. But even if that was the case, the people must have somehow learned of those other religions and continued the worship of those gods.

Conclusion(s):

-God is a lousy god
-There are many more gods

[TWTCommish]

Geez...errors, errors, and more errors!

It was not just Noah and his Wife...it was also his 3 sons with their wives...no, not a huge difference, but a noteworthy one.

If you're going to go as far as to believe (for the sake of argument) that the flood can happen, why do you stop by saying 2 animals cannot reproduce a species? I hate to play this card again, but God needed to intervene, and he did.

I can't for the life of me understand why you keep trying to subject an omnipotent God to the physicial laws of the world around us.

The flood was brought about to wipe the earth of evil...I don't think we've become as evil as the earth was at that point yet...which is why we havn't experienced a worldwide flood.

There must have been false religions before the flood...and we have false religions now - what makes you say that they must have "learned of them"? How about they just formed? The way you think Christianity did?

No offense, but your posts are making less and less sense to me each time...you say something without any evidence to back things up, I refute it, repeat process...? Wasn't like this before.

Peter: yes in your argument with him it might make sense, but overall I believe that (like anything you might read), some things should be taken literally, and others should not.

[Juznuts]

Before I start, I just wanna state that the Bible is not a science textbook, so you won't see scientifice terms all through. Must I remind those who are not familar with the Bible, that there is some form of literally writing sense in it? So one must discern whether the verse is meant to be literal or figurative.

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The earth is stable and does not move. 1 Sam.2:8, 1 Chr.16:30; Job 9:6, 38:4-6; Ps.96:10, 104:5, Is.13:10, Mic.6:2
If so, then it must not spin on its axis or travel about the sun.
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I don't know if this sounds logical. I can say a ship is stable on calm waters, but that doesn't mean that the ship is not moving right? or a elephant is a very big and stable creature ... did i mention it moveS?

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The sun moves around the earth. Psalms 19:4-5, Is.13:10
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Actually the verse talks about the sun risin from one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other. I don't know about you, but we still use the sun rise and set today. I mean we all know its the earth is rotating around the sun, but we are layman you know, you may be scientific, but it's not only normal to say that, its also a way of writing. I mean I love seeing the sunrise and sunsets, and not the earthrotatinleft and left or whatever ...

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According to the Isaiah, the moon produces its own light and the earth does not move. Is.13:10
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The verse says "the moon will not give its light". It doesn't say the moon produces the light. but it sounds very much like what can happen during a lunar eclipse. its just like a mirror reflects light and when u stare at the mirror, it seems to give off light. Go Figure

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The stone became "a great mountain" that "filled the whole earth." This could only be possible on a flat, disc-shaped earth. Dan.2:35
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I don't know about you, but when i dream, funny things happen in my dream. like you noe, maybe you can fly? or do things you could never do. Daniel was explainin a dream the king had!

You want scriptures which prooves science accuracy? Here's some i can think of offhand:

1. The number of stars are uncountable
Relevant Passages (Date of Verse) : Genesis 15:5 (1450-1410BC) ; Jeremiah 33:22 (627-585BC); Hebrews 11:12 (64-68BC)

2. The Earth is a sphere and rotates
Relevant Passages (Date of Verse): Isaiah 40:22 (745-680 BC); Job 26:7 (950 BC or earlier); Luke 17:34-36 (60 AD)

3. Life is in our blood
Leviticus 17:11; Leviticus 17:14 (1450-1410 BC).
During George Washington's day, the practice of blood-letting to treat various kinds of illnesses was common. In fact, George Washington died from this very treatment. In 1830 AD, Dr. Marshall Hall came out in strong opposition to this practice. However, had any of the doctors who practiced this treatment read these Bible verses, they would have known that it could have fatal consequences.

4. Circumcisions should be performed on the eighth day after birth
Genesis 17:12 (1450-1410 BC)
According to the Old Testament (Genesis 17:12), circumcision of newborn males was to be performed on the eighth day after birth. Why the eighth day? In 1935 Professor H. dam proposed the name "vitamin K" for the factor in foods which helped prevent hemorrhaging in baby chicks. We now know that vitamin K is responsible for the production of prothrombin by the liver. If vitamin K is deficient, there will be a prothrombin deficiency and hemorrhaging may occur, since both vitamin K and prothrombin are necessary for proper blood clotting. Oddly enough, it is only on the 5th through the 7th days of the newborn male's life that vitamin K begins to be produced (the vitamin is normally produced by bacterial action in the intestinal tract). and it is only on day eight that the percentage of prothrombin climbs above 100% of normal! The only day in the entire life of the newborn that the blood clotting element prothrombin is that high is day eight. The best day for surgical procedure like circumcision is therefore day eight.

5. All things are made up of sub-atomic particles that are invisible to the naked eye
Hebrews (11:3 64-68 AD)
The first sub-atomic particle to be discovered by modern science was the electron. It was first discovered by J.J. Thomson in 1897

6. Modern communications, perhaps even satellite television broadcasts
Rev. 11:7-11 (About 90 AD)
Talks about people all over the world gloating over the dead prophets, and the thing is, the whole world knew it in just under 3 days! I mean even the fastest transport can't do that in the past!

There are so much more, I got lazy, just check out the site:
http://www.creationists.org/foreknowledge.html
http://www.thewilliamsweb.com/bibleevidences/index.htm

BTW, sorry for my domain (justina.per.sg) not working. It should work, and I haven a clue why some of you can't see the pictures!

And also, Scientific skeptics, Please, check this site out. It prooves lots of stuff, disbukes rotten accusations, and answers common questions! There's solid evidence, so you can't disclaim it: http://answersingenesis.org/home/area/postings.asp

Once again, I'm really sorry about this long post, hope I didn't bore anyone, but please, people who want to disbuke the accuracy of the bible, look through your claims before you make them!

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

God Exists whether you believe it or not. ( Man, I'll probably get shot for saying this statement, but I'll say it anyhow. God is soooo Good! )

To God be all the Glory!
Justina

BTW, don't mind my spelling, I know its horrid. I'm workin on it!

[Juznuts]

Elledan,

I don't know what you believe in and I hope it's not evolution. If it is, it would certainly be much more contradictory.

BTW, Noah didn't need to bring every single species. Just the main families. Eg. from the cat family (lion, tiger, domestic cats) or the Dog family (wolves, dogs etc ...)

Why do you insist that one pair in a species can't make a population? Do you then imply that if there are like only 2 nearly extinct creatures left, ( just go dig a creature off the WWF list ) that it is not possible to reproduce more? I mean I learn abit of Biology, it's possible. You don't even have to worry much about mutant genes surfacing in the past becoz there were hardly any mutant genes to start with, becoz what God created was Good!

Oh as I was saying, if you believe in evolution, there's a much bigger problem than just producing everything on earth from just Noah's ark's creatures. Scientist says we evolved from non-living creatures. ie. your ancestor is a rock. I don't know about you, but I find that harder to believe.

God won't be using a flood to judge the world. It will be much worst, and it will be in our generation!

BTW we see new religions appearing all the time. So where are their roots? Strange man ... the way u think ... *scratches head* anyway, Judaism is the oldest religion!

God is lousy? There are better Gods? Like Who? I don't know about you, but my God heals, He saves, He provides, and much more! I mean I would like to see your God perform a miracle. I've seen mine done miracles. Have you seen yours done any? We humans, evidence right in front of us, and we still refuse to accept it.

Justina

[cyberbrain]

I think it’s really easy to say that something can be interpreted in a literal or figurative way.

This only trick people who want to believe on it, but seriously, isn’t that an open door to lie?
You can say anything, and if you are wrong, you just have to tell people: “ I’m sorry you understood it like that, I was meaning something totally different, I was using that as an image…bla…bla…”
That’s what politic is, as well as religion, saying stuff, to push people believe in things or act in a way to provide power and authority to the interested person. It’s a smart way to manipulate people, now it’s even smarter to tell them things and have the ability to make them say something totally different if needed.

I could say, “hum… About your sentimental life, I see a black haired girls. Hum… do you have a black haired girl around you? Your girlfriend may be? Your mother? Sister? Somebody you see everyday at work?
I’m not sure, but I definitively feel that a special relation with this person will be established pretty soon.”

Almost everybody will find a black haired girl around, and think about this special relation. I can see my girlfriend, and somebody will see his sister, an other his mother …..

There is absolutely nothing precise on what I said, but everybody will add the little details, and perhaps that some will even think that I’m a psychic.
But do this make me a god, or somebody with supernatural power?
Certainly not, this just made me somebody who can abuse the need of human to dream and have ideal.
Of course my example is certainly not the best, but I think that with a little more psychology and work I could make a carrier as psychic.

Just think it’s too easy to turn around and say, yes, but you’ve got to understand that this way, or this one…that just make no sens.

[TWTCommish]

It makes more sense than any other theories I've heard, cyber. EVERYTHING applies to what you said...just because the Bible is sometimes taken literally, and other times not, does not mean this is all deceitful or ANYTHING that you've implied. You spent over half your post illustrating your example of being a pyschic...and that part I do not doubt...but you're linking it with The Bible just doesn't work...it can be linked with your favorite book, or mine. I just don't see why it makes sense.

Juz: Elledan believes in evolution and the big bang I believe...his "religion" is "technology." He thinks mankind should use technology as often as possible...etc. He also seems to think higher-class forced breeding is a good idea.