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  1. #26
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I said I didn't believe in Hell.. I never said I didn't believe in evil. The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't believe Christianity is correct. I can't believe that that any religion that has followers who willingly break the ten commandments is one I would like to follow.

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    [This message has been edited by wluke (edited June 27, 2000).]

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by wluke:
    I can't believe that that any religion that has followers who willingly break the ten commandments is one I would like to follow.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We all willingly break the ten commandments. This is perfectly consistent with what Christianty teaches...that man is prone to sin, and should do his (or her) best to avoid it as much as possible. I don't see why you would discard Christianity because some of the so-called members of this religion are misguided. Don't let them feel you, they are not doing God's work.



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  3. #28
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    wayne, I am not getting upset at all, just expressing my views. And asking questions. I think its interesting what other people think on this subject, I am perfectly open to take in a valid point, and by no means will I blindly defend what I beleive in. I am too much of an explorer for that

    TWTCommish:

    I just can't beleive in something that hasn't been explained to me well enough (or proven, for that matter). Christianity failed to do so (so far). But I read a good book (a million times) that talks about christianity (and buddism). Its offensive and harsh, though. I wont post this title here, because I know from personal experience that religios people usually get offended when someone refers to that book, but if you are interested you can icq/email me and I'll give you the title.


  4. #29
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Good post Christopher.

    Chris Roane

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  5. #30
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I strive in my life not to break the ten commandments even though I am not Jewish, Christian or Muslim. I haven't discarded Christianity because of a its members and feuding churches. I never felt like I belonged to begin with. In my heart it all felt false to me, sorry but that is the closest way I can describe it.

    But now I am studying a new path and learning more everyday. The fact that someone is taking the time to teach me is a sign of acceptance to me. On this path I feel accepted and loved but I also feel like I can make a difference and that my opinion carries value. Those are things I have never felt within any Christian church.

    My own personal belief is that religion is a manifestation of faith and people should be free to honor that faith as they choose. Faith in what I don't know, I don't think any one truly does. It could be a group-mind or a higher conscience. But it is there as strong as gravity and a lot more difficult to get a grasp of or control.

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    Wayne Luke - Sitepoint Moderator/Internet Media Developer
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    [This message has been edited by wluke (edited June 27, 2000).]

  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Again: I cannot speak for all Christians, I can only tell you that I havn't had these kinds of experiences with them...and it's not accurate of what a Christian should be.

    I'm wary of any religion that is all about peace and being nice...not to say that isn't good in it's own way...but let's face it...assuming there is a God, odds are he won't be just peachy happy about everything...I think Christianity lives up to what it stands for when it says that man is prone to sin.



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  7. #32
    Confirmed Halfwit
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    Grin. At the risk of lengthening an already very long topic..

    I have yet to see anyone really nail down what Christians actually believe... (Besides - "you need to get SAVED!") Here's what I think they believe.

    1. The bible says in Romans 3:23 that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." I think this means that ALL human-kind is born into sin. (Which basically means that we are all born into this world *seperated* from and without a relationship with God, who is perfect and sinless. The Bible also tells us - not sure where - that sin is "consumed" by the "glory of God", so it stands to reason that by his very nature, God cannot fellowship with a sinful or imperfect human.) The "original sin" was caused by Adam, when he listened to Satan and ate from the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". Bummer for us.

    2. So what do we do? Does this mean we will never be "reconciled" with God? Can human-kind still have a relationship with God? I think this is where the "You need to get SAVED!" part comes into action. Simply put, this seems to be what Jesus Christ was all about. Bible says in John 3:16 that "for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

    I take this to mean that Jesus is the "reconciliator" for our sins. As the God-Man, he was the only "sinless" person to walk this earth. He was crucified and died... in OUR place.. and for OUR sin. The John 3:16 scripture seems to indicate that if we believe in Christ, we will not perish as a result of our sin, but will have eternal life. I think this means that believing in Christ (and that he died in our place for our sin) basically reconciles us with God. So... Christ died so we wouldn't have to. And the end result is that now we get to hang with God for eternity..if we belive in Christ.

    Is that right?

  8. #33
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    hstraf
    Yes, I believe that is correct. A very good explanation.

    Chris Roane

  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    hstraf: sounds right...although I didn't read it thoroughly...

    "hang with God for eternity"...hehe, I like that.



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  10. #35
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    I have prepared a post. I was begged, er, asked to give one. So here it is...


    In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    God is a spirit they say. No one knows how he came about or why. You just have to believe. Just because you can't see something, doesn't mean it's not there. Which brings me to faith.

    Faith: Believing in something.
    Where would we be without faith? Without anything to look forward to in our daily lives or after death. Whether you believe in God, a cow, or a statue, faith is with us all.

    Religion Vs Science.
    For years, this has been a big feud. Galileo Galilee proved the Catholic church wrong. Earth is not the center of our solar system. Remember that? Whether Earth is the center of the universe, who knows! Why should we worry?

    As a Christian, I believe we were created to do the task of God and teach about him. Jesus was sent as a guideline - Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in heaven.

    As for science. They say the Earth has been around for billions of years. I don't know if they are right, but all I remember is that in the bible, stuff happened BEFORE Jesus came.

    Who is to say who is right or wrong. I know I'm not! Believe in what you want and be happy with it.

    Thank you for you time and attention.


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    Stuart Briscar
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  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Well said, Stuart...but I'm pretty sure the Bible makes it clear that the Earth is not billions of years old...thousands, more like it...some say 4,000...others say 10 or 12,000...but just about all Christian's agree it's not much higher than that.



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  12. #37
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Well said Stuart.

    As long as you don't have any doubts and feel good about what you believe in, then you should stick with whatever your beliefs are.

    Chris Roane

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  13. #38
    SitePoint Zealot Lars's Avatar
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    Wsresource, don't you ever read scientific magazines or watch The Discovery channel?

  14. #39
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Lars
    I do all the time. Do you ever read those things?

    Chris Roane

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  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't understand why so many people seem to think that God and Science contradict each other...just because I believe in God, it doesn't mean I can't believe in basic science...I just don't go for us declaring how old something is all the time...just as its arrogant for us to have considered ourselves the center of the earth at one time, and the Milky Way later, why isn't it arrogant to think we know all these different things about history...

    ...I don't recall the exact explanation a group of government scients gave for the creation of the universe...but it was pretty lame: something about the universe being in some kind of time nutshell so that its been here forever. TIME NUTSHELL? They wanna say evolution? Fine...at least that's plausible...



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  16. #41
    SitePoint Zealot Lars's Avatar
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    Yeah, I read quite a bit of those magazines and by the way I was told the part about the brain by my friends father who a scientist. So it should be pretty true the part about the brain.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I believe this discussion has been very informative and I have enjoyed it very much. I can see that pretty much everyone has their mind set on something and that nothing is going to be able to change it.

    I believe that if God actually slapped a lot of people in the face, a lot of those people still wouldn't believe that he exists. It is just how life is.

    I know I am not going to "not like" anyone just because of what they believe in, in this discussion and I hope people will feel the same way towards me.

    Unless someone posts something that keeps this thread alive, I think I am going to leave it alone.

    I hope I see all of you in other threads in the Site Point Forums.

    Chris Roane

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    [This message has been edited by wsresource (edited June 28, 2000).]

  18. #43
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    earth:/root # rejuvanate threadid=7144

    executed. thread alive

    waiting for input...

    earth:/root # start post | threadid=7144

    --------post starts here-----------

    Humans simply don't live long enough to watch evolution happen.

    --------post ends here-------------

    ending session, please wait...

    earth:/root #
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
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  19. #44
    SitePoint Addict superbird's Avatar
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    I think, like it or not, that the followers of a religion reflect on it. Something must attract evil people to Christianity and Islam. I don't know what it is but I know I want none of it.
    ...KartLink...

  20. #45
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't think that holds water - evil people exist in basically every religion and sect...I'm sure you'll find greater evil in the secular world if you compare it to the Christian world. Evil people are all too plentiful and will populate many different places...besides, forcing your beliefs on someone or being too harsh on other religions is hardly evil when placed side by side with murder and rape...which I'm sure you will find are FAR more plentiful in non-religious groups.

  21. #46
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I just want to say:
    Tsk Tsk Elledan, let dead threads stay dead
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Plus, if you're going to use a Linux (since that's what you use), please use the correct one. It's user@hostname dir$.

    Score -1, Troll

  23. #48
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Wayne > Sorry

    d3v > This is what I always see on my screen...
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
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  24. #49
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Me also just wants to say
    Tsk, tsk, tsk Elledan, let dead threads stay dead

    Christophe

  25. #50
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    I don't thing anyone actually brought up the fact that Hell wasn't created for Man. It was created for fallen angels, like Satan and his group of demons. So Why then, you may ask, do people go to hell? The statement "They sent themselves there!" is not wrong, its just wrongly understood.

    See God is Holy, and anything less than perfection cannot be let into Heaven. You think you are perfecT? Think again. I know that all of us have missed perfection. Don't believe? Come on, tell the world you haven't told a single lie before? or maybe cheated in a test? that you have never hated someone (which is commiting murder by law) or stripped someone on the streets with your mind (that's breaking the commandment of adultary). Most things you don't even need to physically do it. Mentally doing it is as good as done becoz God looks @ the heart! Still think you are perfect? If you do, that's your pride that's holding you back from eternal salvation.

    Think of it. Everyone says God is Love. Then someone says if God is love, then why will He sent people to hell? Let's face it, God can't overlook your wrongdoings just becoz you did more good than bad. He can't say boys will be boys and sweep everything under the carpet. God is not only Love, but He is Just Too! So how to agree on Both matterS? He do something to show His love by violating Justice, Neither does He just want to be Just by comprising on His Love. Maybe you might think: Ah .. gotcha there! But He has shown us that He is not only Just, He is not only Love, but much more! He sent His only Son to take our judgement! If you are a parent, no way will you let your child die for a bad guy, but that is What God Did. He Sent Jesus Christ!

    Most don't understand the truth about the cross. The simple fact is: He took our place, so that we are made righteous. It satisfy the Law! The Law of Double Jepordy says the same crime cannot be trialed twice! If Jesus was trialed for our faults, we can't be trialed again! Win-win situation. Now Man can be with God! You wanna get to Heaven? Well, Make sure you are Perfect Then! ( ever heard of a perfect guy or girl? I haven't ) Either that, or a simpler way is to accept the gift that JEsus Christ has given us. He has given us a pardon from the death penalty. Ah ... but take note, no gift is a gift unless you accept it. If pride keeps you from rejecting the gift, the gift, though paid for, is void!

    RaviJP
    --------------------
    I mean there's evolution all around us (it's been proven).
    --------------------
    Actually, Evolution is not Science. Its more of a religion claiming there is not God. Evolution is not proven fact. We did not evolve from micro-organisms. My ancestor is not an ape. I know we have all heard of stuff like that there is evidence, but I tell you, the evidence is true, but it does not support the theory. There are 2 types of evolution, one which is the macro one which says we come from uni-cellular organisms. The other is micro, which says that dogs wolfs all come from the same family, ie are from the same species, or how cats, lions, tigers are all from the same family, etc ... yes these magnificent creatures are all similar within their species but there is no evidence that these species ie a cat and a dog shares the same ancestor. Please Email me if you have evidence! I've been looking for them!

    Gem
    --------------------
    We can actually prove what age trees are. A five year old could do it if told how to. Every year a tree develops a new layer or thickness and these can clearly be seen and counted. I have the exact details of the process in my biology book but I burnt that after finishing school a week ago . It has something to do with cambium and stuff like that.
    --------------------
    Yeah, but once again, thats on the assupmtion that the weather has been more or less the same all the while. If I'm not wrong, the new rings only forms in spring! How would you know that maybe the weather was worst or better last time? Were you alive 3000 years ago? Ah ... gotcha!

    aspen
    ------------------
    And as we learn more and more we discredit what's in the bible more and more and soon this wave of religions will die out and new ones may arise.
    ------------------
    I've never seen any remarks against the Bible which could not be explained. Most of such remarks were becoz of ignorance. Sure the Bible not a science book. But I tell you, it doesn't disagree with science in a single place. You need proof? E-mail me!

    wluke
    ------------------
    I can't believe that that any religion that has followers who willingly break the ten commandments is one I would like to follow.
    ------------------
    Every religion has its black sheeps. I mean, every thing in society has theirs, you know wolf in sheeps clothing? A wolf may look like a sheep, but its a wolf. Make sense eh? SO how you suppose to know its not a wolf? Only the shepherd (Jesus) knows His sheeps. I could say I'm a Christian, but how are you suppose to confirm that? Impossible! Ah well, that's a side issue altogether *grin*

    Oh yar and about the famous question about where is God From? There's 2 answers!
    1) If I knew, I'll be God! (haha ... okay for the more serious and logical one ... )
    2) You only ask where something came from or where is the beginning of something, if you live in a time-zone. ( It's a bit deep, gotta think about that point! It's valid though ) God lives in a timeless zone. So how to state?

    As to how old the Earth is, It's about 6000 years old. That's one of the reasons why Christians say the rapture will occur soon. God created the world in 6 days, and on the 7, He rested! Jesus died, and on the 3rd day He rose again! ( we are in the year 2000 you know. )

    Of course, everyone is free to believe what they like. I dun condemn other religions, but I have no desire to promote them. I hope this doesn't sound contradictory. I believe that God is still waiting for people to turn to Jesus. He's waiting, but soon, He will wait no more. He's going to remove the Christians on this earth really soon. and I believe that will be His attempt to get your attention. Imagine, millions of christians vanishing from this Earth! Some may be your friends, your family members, strangers you kinda know! If then you still don't believe, adious! But if you are convince then, just accept Jesus as your Lord and Your God, and the sacrifice He made for you! You will meet with your raptured folks if you do that, though not immediately!

    Sorry, this is abit long, but I got too caught up. If you don't agree with anything I say, Just e-mail, or reply to this post ... I'm not perfect, and I'm still Learning!

    + Praise The Lord! +
    Justina


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