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  1. #1
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I am closing the original because it has gotten so large. Post your responses here.

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  2. #2
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I just wanted to make clear that while I find this topic inappropriate to SitePoint in general, that I haven't closed it. I honor everyone's opinion and freedom of speech.

    My take on the issue is that both Creationists and Evolutionists are wrong and it required a little of both and I'll leave it at that.
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>
    Since almost every religion says members of all the other religions are going to go to hell, then everyone must go to hell (unless you hedge your bets and join every religion). And almost every religion says that they are the one-and-only true religion so basically everyone(else) is wrong or diluted and must go to hell. Therefore TWTCommish, it doesn't matter what you do: you're going to go to hell so you might as well ignore what is right and wrong.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not all religions believe in Hell. I for one don't.
    Please don't let this topic degenerate into name-calling, arguing or too much of a heated debate, or I will be forced to delete it.

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    Wayne Luke - Sitepoint Moderator/Internet Media Developer
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    [This message has been edited by wluke (edited June 26, 2000).]

  3. #3
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    RaviJP
    --------------------
    I mean there's evolution all around us (it's been proven).
    --------------------
    I agree with you in that everything around us is changing, but I don't agree with you in the rate that everything changes and how much something can change.

    RaviJP
    -------------------
    Many people put their lives to "God" because human beings need something to believe in, they need hope, and the belief that eternal happiness after death is very comforting (which is why this whole God stuff came about, because people want to know that when they die, they will go to "Heaven").
    -------------------
    You may be right, but I don't think so. I could say the exact same thing about evolution though: They only believe in it because they are afraid that there might be a god that they will have to face someday for all their actions.

    temis
    ------------------------
    I don't want to beg for forgiveness every time I take a step.
    ------------------------
    I totally agree with you and I don't beg for forgiveness every time I take a step. I barely beg for forgiveness that often at all, anyway.

    temis
    -----------------------
    LuZeR's point on homosexuality - who says its wrong? To those of you that do: you are free to like it or dislike it, but you have no right to claim that its wrong.
    -----------------------
    Why don't we have the right to claim that it is wrong? If I am correct, I think we do have that right. (no offense)

    Chris Roane

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    [This message has been edited by wsresource (edited June 26, 2000).]

  4. #4
    SitePoint Member
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    _____
    You may be right, but I don't think so. I could say the exact same thing about evolution though: They only believe in it because they are afraid that there might be a god that they will have to face someday for all their actions.
    _____

    I dont believe in one almight God, but if someday I do have to face one, I surely wont be afraid to because I know I haven't lived my life as a complete sinner. Sure I sin every now and then but who doesnt? so what have I got to be afriad of?

    Ravi

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  5. #5
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I think you don't totally understand what Christianity teaches. If you believe in God and accept that he is your savior, you will go to heaven. If you don't believe that God created the world and that god is not your personal savior, then you will go to hell. It has nothing to do with how many sins you committed or how bad they were, even though God might reward you for those things. He will not let you in heaven just because you are a good person.

    Chris Roane

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  6. #6
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    wsresourse:
    ----
    I guess for the sake of other people who beleive its right. (no offense taken )

    and forgive me if I butt in your's and ravi's conversation...

    sin...what's sin? every religion has its own definition of sin, and every person, in turn, interprets that definition differently for themselves. You only sin if you break the standards YOU set and you know it and you are guilty for it.

  7. #7
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    wsresourse:

    dont you find a contradiction right here?

    --------
    I think you don't totally understand what Christianity teaches. If you believe in God and accept that he is your savior, you will go to heaven. If you don't believe that God created the world and that god is not your personal savior, then you will go to hell. It has nothing to do with how many sins you committed or how bad they were, even though God might reward you for those things. He will not let you in heaven just because you are a good person
    ------------------

    Christianity is known to be a religion a love and forgiveness and pity. And here you have a God, who says: "Ah, thou doesnt beleive in me... I dont care if you are a good person, but unless you beleive in me you will go to hell!"..... SO, what does that tell us about that God? What is that God teaching us? That's a loving God Almighty? Or do morals they preach not apply to god?

    (no offenses to the religion, just trying to understand....)


  8. #8
    SitePoint Zealot Lars's Avatar
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    Okay then here's my opinion:

    It has been proven that a large part of the brain makes you believe in a religion. That's what make people think that they go to heaven, because it's human instinct to be afraid of dying.

    If god was here why would we be destroying ourselves? God hasn't helped me neither anybody I know.

    When you die... Well then you are DEAD and that's that. You don't know your'e dead because you are dead.

    That's what I believe in.

  9. #9
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    I personally like buddhism.

    Nearly every other religion has killed in the name of "god" or "allah" or whomever they choose to worship. I've never heard of a buddhist killing in the name of buddha or killing to reach nirvana. It still goes on today, snipers on top of abortion clinics passing their own judgement on who is right and wrong. Self rightious students beating other students who dress goth with bibles (I know someone that happened to) I'm ashamed that I was raised christian when I look at all the things people do "in the name of god" I consider the religious right to be of the same ilk as terrorists, nazi's, and other scum.

    In the grand scheme of things christianity is a minority. Yet there are so many christians who have this major superiority complex about their beliefs, and sure other religions are probably the same but we're not talking about them.

    for example when I was in highschool a friend of mine did a report on Buddhism and a girl in the class asked why he would do a report on something "evil." Its attitudes like that that sicken me.

    Do I believe in creation? Not on your life. Do I believe in God, yes. Creation is simply a story, nothing more, to teach you to follow the word of god. The ten commandments is just a story to say exactly what the word of god is. I dont think "god" had anything to do with what is in the bible. That is pretty much the creation of a few men a long long time ago.

    Creation sort of puts us in the center of the universe. And we're not in the center. Do you know how many billions of stars and planets and solar systems and galaxies are out there? No one does, because they haven't run out of things to count yet. The sheer volume of what makes up our universe is so monumental its silly to think we're the center of it.

    But where did we all come from then? They say all mass was centered and that there was a big bang and everything started coming about. Well what caused the bang? What put the mass there in the first place? Is there other masses and other bangs? Maybe its like in Men In Black and our whole universe is just the inside of someone's marble. When you sit down and try to think where we all came from its impossible. Lets say god put that ball of mass there and made it go bang. Well where did god come from, and what is god? No one can answer these questions. No one. I think its pretty presumptious of man to try to.

    Religions are basically inventions of man to explain the unknown, this is an anthropological truth. In the stone age man had religion, in fact the primary diety was this mother figure. They used her to explain anything they couldn't. Eventually man learned more and you get to greek and roman times. They still could not explain some things, so Apollo rode the sun across the sky, Neptune caused the waves, Jupiter threw lighting, disease and plague was thanks to Pandora. Then man progressed and learned more and invented new religions, like christianity, to explain the truly monumental unknowns, why are we here? how did we get here? and where do we go when we die? That brings us to our current date. And as we learn more and more we discredit whats in the bible more and more and soon this wave of religions will die out and new ones may arise.

    People who study religions and have studied other cultures can illustrate for you some facts you may not be aware of.

    December 25th is not Jesus's birthday, it was a date sacred to a greek men's cult long before christ was even born. The is another greek myth, I do not remember the name, which has marvelous other simularities to christianity. Its about a god who dies and it raised, on what date?, easter. And at his festival people decorate trees (sounds like christmas to me) and drink blood. (Hmm "the blood of christ" is something catholics drink at mass). I'm hardly a professor on this topic but I have taken classes and it can be shown undisputably how the major religions of today are only the evolved religions of yesterday.

    The purpose of this long and winding post? I'm hoping to educate. Personally I wish I was devotely religious, Religion offers hope and piece of mind, but I'm too scientific for that.

    Chris

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    temis said:
    Christianity is known to be a religion a love and forgiveness and pity. And here you have a God, who says: "Ah, thou doesnt beleive in me... I dont care if you are a good person, but unless you beleive in me you will go to hell!"..... SO, what does that tell us about that God?

    Reply:
    Well, first off all...assuming there is a God, we can't be expected to even comprehend everything he does...sounds fishy, I know.

    Secondly, God does not send us to Hell: we send ourselves to Hell. If he intervened too often and such we would be robotic followers without a mind of our own...everyone gets a chance to learn about him and accept him, and I'm convinced that those few that don't are granted access to Heaven.


    Lars said:
    If god was here why would we be destroying ourselves? God hasn't helped me neither anybody I know.

    Reply:
    How do you know? I'm convinced God guides me a little everday. Not much, but a bit. I feel he influences my decisions for the better...who said it isn't happening to you? You just may not notice it.


    aspen said:
    Nearly every other religion has killed in the name of "god" or "allah" or whomever they choose to worship.

    Reply:
    So? Are we to be held responsible for these people? People love to yell "WHAT ABOUT THE CRUSADES?!" to me whenever we get into arguments about Christianity...but you've got to realize there will be people who go a bit crazy. Don't go with a religion because it has more peaceful people...that alone doesn't mean anything. Keep in mind that most crimes are secular...not Christian. And trust me, God does not approve of such wild acts, so don't try to imply that it's part of the religion...it's not, and I'm ashamed of being associated with such people.

    I don't think it can be shown undisputedly...this is a LONG time we're talking about...which is why I claim no proof at all...just some common sense, my opinion, and faith.

    Keep in mind that if you choose to believe in evolution you're basically saying there were probably millions of other races of human-like beings that died out at some point...


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  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Sorry, a few more things.

    <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
    <LI>One of the comments earlier reminds me of a 15-year old friend of mine...we got into a basic discussion about Christianity and the Jewish Faith...it got to the point where he was a little upset and blurted out something like "Religion hasn't down s**t for me!"...this reminds me of some of the comments made here.

    Religion (or God), doesn't owe you anything. If you're Jewish or a Christian you've already been done a huge favor by your creation alone...a sense of further entitlement is out of line.
    <LI>Does Christianity SEEM like something people would make up to make death less frightful? Yes, of course it does...but as said before, the same can be said for some other religions...atheism requires less self-control, and an agnostic doesn't have to think about it at all...I think the fact that I also believe (and totally fear) Hell shows that I'm not just trying to make myself feel better with the thought of Heaven...if you ask me your typical Mormon is more "guilty" of that...where even non-believers get to run their own tiny galaxy when they die.
    <LI>If you're going to present us with a comment such as "there is much scientific proof to support evolution"...please provide some source of reference...a link would be best...and if you expect me as a Christian to have an open mind towards your views, please be open to the fact (which is obvious to me), that science is not reliable right now and that we know much less than we think we do...you can't ever convince me that carbon dating is accurate or that we can simply declare that some trees are 100,000 years old.
    </UL>





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  12. #12
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    TWTCommish said:
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>
    you can't ever convince me that carbon dating is accurate or that we can simply declare that some trees are 100,000 years old.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This hasn't much to do with religion but it states a fact.

    We can actually prove what age trees are. A five year old could do it if told how to. Every year a tree develops a new layer or thickness and these can clearly be seen and counted. I have the exact details of the process in my biology book but I burnt that after finishing school a week ago . It has something to do with cambium and stuff like that.

    So it is easy to prove the age of a tree. Now proving that God exists/doesn't exist is a lot harder, downright impossible. We will never know if he exists or not so I don't see the point in anyone trying to prove that he does.

    Gem
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  13. #13
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Lars
    -------------
    It has been proven that a large part of the brain makes you believe in a religion. That's what make people think that they go to heaven, because it's human instinct to be afraid of dying.
    -------------
    I have never heard of this before, and I would like to see some references that backup your statement. I doubt that actually has been proven.

    temis
    -----------------
    Christianity is known to be a religion a love and forgiveness and pity. And here you have a God, who says: "Ah, thou doesn't believe in me... I don't care if you are a good person, but unless you believe in me you will go to hell!"..... SO, what does that tell us about that God? What is that God teaching us? That's a loving God Almighty? Or do morals they preach not apply to god?
    ---------------
    Offcourse morals apply to god. It is what is behind the morals that God cares about. If you are being nice just to be nice, that doesn't matter much to God because you are not accepting that he is your savior and that he is God almighty. If you are being nice because you know God wants you to be that way and you accept that he is savior, than off course he is going to like that. That is like everything though. Someone might look like they are being 'friendly' but yet they might be really going after something else.

    If you ask me, the Lord is giving enough love by letting all this rebellion take place and give everyone a chance into his kingdom.

    aspen
    ---------------
    Nearly every other religion has killed in the name of "god" or "allah" or whomever they choose to worship. I've never heard of a buddhist killing in the name of buddha or killing to reach nirvana. It still goes on today, snipers on top of abortion clinics passing their own judgement on who is right and wrong. Self righteous students beating other students who dress goth with bibles (I know someone that happened to) I'm ashamed that I was raised Christian when I look at all the things people do "in the name of god" I consider the religious right to be of the same ilk as terrorists, nazi's, and other scum.
    ----------------
    Okay, I consider this to be a way out for you. If you are going to bring on this thing about 'what some Christians do' then I really don't see that you have an opened mind at all. Yes, there are so called 'Christians' out there that do that. Do I think what they are doing is right? No.

    aspen
    -----------------
    Creation is simply a story, nothing more, to teach you to follow the word of god.
    -----------------
    You can't prove that.

    aspen
    -----------------
    The ten commandments is just a story to say exactly what the word of god is. I don't think "god" had anything to do with what is in the bible. That is pretty much the creation of a few men a long time ago.
    -----------------
    If you believe that God really does exist, than why would he allow the bible to be created, claiming that it is the word of God? And why would that book just 'happen' to stay on the Best-Seller list so long that they decided to take it off for good? Also, nations have always tried to destroy the bible all throughout history. Has it just been lucky to stay in existence and stay accurate all throughout its existence?

    aspen
    ---------------
    The sheer volume of what makes up our universe is so monumental its silly to think we're the center of it.
    ---------------
    We know little about what is around our planet and I can say that we don't know enough to say if we are in the middle or not.

    aspen
    ---------------
    Well where did god come from, and what is god?
    ---------------
    I don't think that is relevant to how or where we came from. Christians don't need to explain anything because everything is in the bible and where God comes from is none of our business. But when evolutionists make pre assumptions about how things get started, I am going to want to know where and how they came up with them.

    aspen
    ------------------
    And as we learn more and more we discredit what's in the bible more and more and soon this wave of religions will die out and new ones may arise.
    ------------------
    Okay, I would like you to show me some real piece of evidence that discredits the bible in anyway. I haven't seen any proof whatsoever that shows that the bible isn't reliable. Until someone disproves the bible, I am going to still believe in it.

    In the bible, it explains how there will be many other beliefs and world views out there. It also 'proficises' how there will be a 'naturalistic' view of how the world became and how it will be what most people believe in. Is it just a miracle that this is actually true? I think not. How do you explain the number of things that were said to happen in the bible, actually happen?

    aspen
    -----------------
    Religion offers hope and piece of mind, but I'm too scientific for that.
    -----------------
    Oh I see. Us creationists are to stupid to see how things really are. I get your drift.

    Chris Roane

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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by wsresource:
    Hi,

    I think you don't totally understand what Christianity teaches. If you believe in God and accept that he is your savior, you will go to heaven. If you don't believe that God created the world and that god is not your personal savior, then you will go to hell.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I dont know what they teach you over there, but thats what Christianity is about. And Im not saying this because I am a CHristian, but Ive had many a fight. And every Christian I have talked to said that, when the time comes, God will give you a choice, everyone is given a chance to repent, if you take the choice to ask for forgiveness you are allowed into Heaven not matter what lifestyle you led. If you choose not to, you wont go to Heaven. What you said really sounds like total and utter crap. You're contradicting yourself. God is the great almighty but he still holds a grudge against those people who are led into evil.

    yeah....ooook

    Ravi


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    to all of you , who replied to my "christianity is...":

    I dont want to have to accept God as my savior. Savior from what? Hell? The one he'll send me to if I dont conform?

    twtcommish: we send ourselves to hell? no. we go to hell cuz we are not accepted into the gods kingdom, that being equal to god sending us to hell.

  16. #16
    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    RaviJP

    Well, that is what I have interpretted the bible to say, and I don't care how many Christians you have talked to.

    Chris Roane

    [This message has been edited by wsresource (edited June 26, 2000).]

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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by temis:
    twtcommish: we send ourselves to hell? no. we go to hell cuz we are not accepted into the gods kingdom, that being equal to god sending us to hell. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, we do send ourselves...you have your chance now to believe...I find it ridiculously merciful that we're even given the smallest chance to make it to Heaven...and all it really is is a choice! It's not a matter of being accepted...that implies rejection...God will not reject you if you go to him.

    Oh and by the way, about us being too arrogant to think of ourselves as the center of the universe...we may not be. The Bible (to my knowledge) does not specifically state that we are the only intelligent beings around...we're the chosen people...not the same thing really.



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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by RaviJP:
    I dont know what they teach you over there, but thats what Christianity is about. And Im not saying this because I am a CHristian, but Ive had many a fight. And every Christian I have talked to said that, when the time comes, God will give you a choice, everyone is given a chance to repent, if you take the choice to ask for forgiveness you are allowed into Heaven not matter what lifestyle you led. If you choose not to, you wont go to Heaven. What you said really sounds like total and utter crap. You're contradicting yourself. God is the great almighty but he still holds a grudge against those people who are led into evil.

    yeah....ooook

    Ravi
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You're misunderstanding Chris a bit...he was just putting the faith in a highly simplified form...if you murder all your life odds are you won't be able to "truly" repent when the time comes...it's not about just apologizing...you have to truly change your life...




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    That reminds me of a movie I saw last night, Tofu. It is called Trapped In Paradise.
    The name of the town was Paradise.

    They robbed a bank on Christmas day.
    They were on their way to Canada and they slid off the road due to the fact it was icy and snowy.

    Ok. Let me cut to the chase. One of the guys felt real guilty and decided he wanted to change his life. Sooooooooooo. He gave the money he stole(about $270K) to the church.

    That was interesting.

    ===============
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  20. #20
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Temis- Don't get too upset over it. There are others out here who sympathize with you. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I do believe in God, I do believe that Jesus was a fine individual with a lot of good things to say. I also believe that the bible has a lot of facts in it but isn't 100% truthful. I don't use it as a manual for my life. Instead I use my morals that each and everyone of use are born with and most tend to disregard. This enables me to life a fruitful and long life. If there is something after death than so be it, when the time comes I'll find out. Until that point I will live my life towards building a better world for my children. That is the higher purpose. Let them fight it out amongst themselves and live by your beliefs because they are just as valid as theirs. There is no one true path to righteousness and anyone who tries to make you feel otherwise is doing evil's work.

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    SitePoint Addict Chris Roane's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Good post WLuke.

    I agree with most everything you mentioned in your last post, except a couple things.

    wluke
    ---------------
    There is no one true path to righteousness and anyone who tries to make you feel otherwise is doing evil's work."
    ---------------
    I thought you didn't really believe in evil?

    Chris Roane

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    [This message has been edited by wsresource (edited June 26, 2000).]

  22. #22
    ********* Evangelist
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    My question is in response to several posts I have seen on this thread and thread #1: what ever happened to religious tolerance?

    I am a Christian, but I don't believe that just because other people are of different faiths that they will go to Hell or be punished for it. I hope I am not in the minority with this position. The thing that gets me is all these different religions saying that they are the "true" religion and that other religions are all wrong. Sure there are major differences between different religions, but that should not stop us from having tolerance towards their beliefs.

  23. #23
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by wluke:
    I can make a difference and that my opinion carries value. Those are things I have never felt within any Christian church.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well, once again, you must be bumping into some of the wrong people.

    I know exactly what you mean by purpose and making a difference...only thing that's different for me is that I feel that with Christianity...I'm sorry you don't...but I have to believe that many Christians these days seem fake...I hope someone out there doesn't take that the wrong way...but I look at myself, and line myself up against what I perceive as the stereotypical Christian...and they're too far off...and I'm convinced the fault doesn't lie with me...

    ...I've been lucky enough to come into contact with a decent amount of down-to-earth Christians...the type that are far too lacking these days...my father is one of them, and without him I might have an odd feeling about Christianity as well.

    I just read a book that says 50% of our attitude, personality and overall behavior comes from our inherited genes, and the other 50% comes from our enviroment...maybe you're just not meeting the right people, it can be very hard to find a truly righteous church...I would know!



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  24. #24
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Personally... the only religion i can stand to be a part of is quakerism. I was raised a quaker and started considering myself one when i was 17. It's probably mainly because the majority of Quakers I have met are some of the nicest, most accepting, caring and open minded people I know and they don't preach to me. They teach peace, equality, simplicity, community, harmony. They don't teach that gays are bad, or catholics or buddhists. They don't break out the bible at every chance, but in my opinion many of them act more christian than many so-called christians, teaching love and acceptance instead of morality, vengeance and hatred (not that everyone else doesn't).

  25. #25
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    No one path to righteousness? Of course there is! The only way there could be more than one path is if there were a God above who was very flexible on what he expected of a person.

    If Christianity is correct, then there is certainly a one, correct path. I respect your views and am glad you do believe in a higher being. And for the record, temis' belief MAY be just as valid as ours...we won't know until our lives are over, but obviously either one of us is wrong...or we both are...I think it makes more sense to say that we all have reasonable beliefs, that all have the potential of being the truth.

    I too strive to build for my future, and the future of any children or family I might have.



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