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  1. #76
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    Reading a web page.
    Looking at a headline = I hit "h", the quick key that takes me to the first heading tag of the page.
    "Header level one."

    Scouting out the next headline = I hit "h" again.
    "Header level two." Oh, this must be a subheading of the main header I was just on. It must be related information.

    This is not "aural styling". It's not semantics. It's visual style explaining what the information inside IS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I don't believe you are arguing that <p> here is a good thing to use but it sure sounds like it from your arguments.
    i believe this is my queue to get off this train. i'm disappointed, i really am

  2. #77
    Robert Wellock silver trophybronze trophy xhtmlcoder's Avatar
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    Not really presentational but structural markup. The presentation is the user-agent stylesheet (which includes differing media).

    The idea was to be able define an interoperable document using a common dominator. Markup should describe a document's structure and other attributes, rather than specify the processing to be performed on it.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    words w/ tags. <h1>Big words</h1>. people w/ specifics. <height7">Tall people</height7">.

    that means that, in order to convey semantics, you rely on visuals.
    Or on source order, or on something other than 'big words' since H1 does not mean 'larger text'... it means the parent heading under which all other headings are the start of subsections. That's ALL it means.

    That means you might do

    h1+* { padding-left:2em; }

    Like some lynx stylesheets do when color and bold are unavailable. It's still conveying the meaning.

    Or to go back to the newspaper analogy I use all the time. What heading appears on every page (or every other fold) under which all other headings would be subsections? The name of the paper of course. It might appear larger on the front page than the sub-page, but it's still the topmost heading.

    On the front page, you might have

    MAYOR CAUGHT TAKING MILLION DOLLAR BRIBE

    In giant text... does that make:

    K-6 GETS NEW BUILDING

    and

    OFFICER INJURED AT LOCAL DINER

    ... subsections of that first article? Of course not. They are all H2 REGARDLESS of what size they are being presented in on the print copy. This is where people screw up the word 'importance' as it doesn't mean 'more important' in terms of the content, but in terms of the STRUCTURE -- and structurally those are all kin to each-other not subsections of the first! Unless the mayor used the bribe to buy that school and then beat up a cop at the diner...

    H2 is the start of a subsection to the h1. If your element that you are putting a heading on is NOT a subsection of the higher order heading preceeding it, you have the wrong heading order!

    Presentation and default appearance doesn't even play into it!

  4. #79
    The CSS Clinic is open silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope
    changing css it's the first mistake. you're writing code to fix first rather than to present.
    How is that?

    Wasn't it CSS that introduced the white space bug that this thread is all about? I'm sure the problem occurred by changing an element to display:inline-block with CSS.

    Before the element was changed with CSS there was no white space to contend with therefore it should be CSS's job to fix it. There was no white space bug until the CSS was applied in the first place. Or am I mistaken here?

    Regardless of the rights and wrongs there are two solutions as I see it (and these are my personal observations relating to my experience).

    Method 1) Adjust the html mark up to reduce the gaps between tags.

    Pros:
    1) Relatively easy to do
    2)Doesn't need css
    (Can't think of any other valid pro reason)

    Cons
    1) Dangerously fragile and liable to break as soon as someone edits the code. In my experience 99% of my clients would break this when they add their content or when their developers convert the page to php or add dynamic data, or when they convert the template into a CMS.

    I just cannot ensure that everyone in the chain will not break the formatting of the html. The chain may stretch from here to India and back and I have no control over that. (The css would likely remain untouched and intact through all these stages.)

    2) Awkward to work with and difficult to read and administer. Working with html in one long line is virtually impossible. Having to format the code for editing and testing and then reformat for viewing would be a nightmare during the development stage.

    Method 2
    ) Adjust the CSS.

    Pros

    1)
    Relatively easy to do

    2)
    Keeps control of presentation in the stylesheet where it belongs.

    3) Won't break when someone reformats the html.

    4) The chances of the client breaking the relevant css is very unlikely. In fact in a lot of the templates I provide my existing CSS is not even touched. They may add css but they seldom change what I have set up in the first place. If the argument is that the css can accidentally be changed then that could happen to any of the CSS anyway so is really a red herring otherwise we'd have to go back to tables and spacer gifs.

    5) The html can remain nicely formatted and easy to work with.

    Cons:
    1)
    Client may break the css (None other that I can think of)

    Conclusion.

    a) If the html is reformatted for presentational effect then said presentation is lost if the html is edited or reformatted. The chances of this happening - very likely.

    b) If the CSS method is used then it doesn't matter how the html is formatted but the CSS could still be unwittingly broken. The chances of this happening - very unlikely.

    In all honesty and likelihood the odds that the html would break first must be very high. The css version could break but this is very unlikely to happen.

    Discussion with client goes like this:

    ME
    : "Would you like a page that breaks as soon as someone reformats the html". You can avoid this by contacting your programmers in India and teaching them all to ignore well established facts that html reformatting should not change the appearance. You can then contact everyone else in the chain and advise them of the same details. It should be quite easy to do and shouldn't take you long to get them all up to speed.

    Or would you like a robust page that will not break no matter how the html is formatted?

    Client: "Give me the page that breaks as soon as the html is edited and then I can sue you for all you've got."

    Joking aside, if you are asking me to give my client a fragile page that will break as soon as he looks it or a robust page that he would have to try very hard to break then I know which I would choose every time. Common sense is the issue here as the html method has more chance of failure.

    But hey "each to their own"; you do it your way and I'll do it mine. We'll just have to agree to differ.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    html was born to put text from paper to screen and to link it. the text should look like the one on paper: headings, paragraphs, lists, figures.
    NO, IT WASN'T!

    HTML was invented to be able to present content in a device independent manner -- be it print, screen, teletype, aural, whatever.
    i'm sorry, but how does your phrase goes against mine. i see that they say the same thing: present electronic content. did i mention any device dependent manner?


    Off Topic:


    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    That you apparently don't grasp that is likely why you're the only one defending your viewpoint on this here... You do not seem to grasp the point of semantics OR separation of presentation from content.
    since gary, i see you're reviving you're old tune, my friend that's fine, enjoy you're bashing.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    i'm sorry, but how does your phrase goes against mine.
    "Go" not "goes", and that should end in a question mark... though at least you started using punctuation.

    As to the question, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    html was born to put text from paper to screen and to link it. the text should look like the one on paper
    Maybe it's that you don't understand the meaning of the word from in the context you used it, but what you said is to take text written for paper and display it on screen and to create links... and that it should look like it does on paper. Saying what it is, NOT what it looks like!

    That is NOT what HTML is for. It's to make it be presentable everywhere WITHOUT necessarily making it 'look like' it does on any other device since not all devices can make the same appearance.

    Making it:
    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    look like the one on paper
    IS NOT what HTML is for.

    Again, I suspect language barrier. Though again from everything you've said in this thread it just adds to my explanation of why you think white-space stripping for deployment is a good thing... bad coding in the first place.

  7. #82
    @alexstanford Alex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Off Topic:

    since gary, i see you're reviving you're old tune, my friend that's fine, enjoy you're bashing.
    Who in the heck is gary?

    Oh, and I must say that I see DS's point of view on heading tag semantics, advocate the same regularly to my fellow developers and don't see how it is bashing.

    Off Topic:

    I think you meant to say "enjoy your bashing" not "enjoy you're bashing" as that is like saying "enjoy you are bashing" ...


    Alex
    Alex Stanford @alexstanford tumblog about.me in fb G+ K
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Who in the heck is gary?

    Oh, and I must say that I see DS's point of view on heading tag semantics, advocate the same regularly to my fellow developers and don't see how it is bashing.

    Alex
    I think he's implying that I (Jason M. Knight, Keene, NH) and Gary Turner are the same person.

    We're not. Either that or he's saying something about "since gary posted in this thread" -- but the lack of meaningful verbs or nouns pretty much leaves us guessing.

    Since with his horribly broken engrish, who can say. Five or six times in this thread alone there's been instances of noonnope contradicting himself that I think is entirely the language barrier at fault. Scary since he repeatedly uses large words that nobody who speaks English natively would ever use. (Words I know and avoid using so as to avoid scaring the straights...)

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    Method 1) Adjust the html mark up to reduce the gaps between tags.
    no. adjust the html mark up formatting!!!. not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    Pros:
    1) Relatively easy to do
    2)Doesn't need css
    (Can't think of any other valid pro reason)
    3) cross browser in one step.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    Cons
    1) Dangerously fragile and liable to break as soon as someone edits the code.
    no. edits the code formatting!!! very big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    (The css would likely remain untouched and intact through all these stages.)
    i wonder

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    2) Awkward to work with and difficult to read and administer. Working with html in one long line is virtually impossible.
    (eyebrows raised high)!?! i'm sorry, since when one long line? since when occasional tag chaining removes ALL FORMATTING?


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post

    Method 2
    ) Adjust the CSS.

    Pros

    1)
    Relatively easy to do

    2)
    Keeps control of presentation in the stylesheet where it belongs.
    arguable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    3) Won't break when someone reformats the html.
    the single truth so far.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    4) The chances of the client breaking the relevant css is very unlikely. In fact in a lot of the templates I provide my existing CSS is not even touched. They may add css but they seldom change what I have set up in the first place. If the argument is that the css can accidentally be changed then that could happen to any of the CSS anyway so is really a red herring otherwise we'd have to go back to tables and spacer gifs.
    future bugs may appear due to your css solution. have you covered all bases? have you thought of every possible scenario? you can never know. tag chaining is full proof in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    5) The html can remain nicely formatted and easy to work with.
    most likely. until the one scenario that could ruin it all. future...


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    Cons:
    1)
    Client may break the css (None other that I can think of)
    the css solution may provoke other bugs, may need reconsideration after a while, may need adaptation for new UAs, becomes deprecated...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    Conclusion.

    a) If the html is reformatted for presentational effect then said presentation is lost if the html is edited or reformatted.
    another misread. not presentational effect, formatting whitespace bug effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    b) If the CSS method is used then it doesn't matter how the html is formatted but the CSS could still be unwittingly broken. The chances of this happening - very unlikely.
    you know what i have to say: very likely, i'm afraid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    But hey "each to their own"; you do it your way and I'll do it mine. We'll just have to agree to differ.
    i hope everybody would understand i'm not force-selling anything to them nor that i am a target for their own frustrations!

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    I think he's implying that I (Jason M. Knight, Keene, NH) and Gary Turner are the same person.
    no, i'm not

    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Since with his horribly broken engrish, who can say. Five or six times in this thread alone there's been instances of noonnope contradicting himself that I think is entirely the language barrier at fault. Scary since he repeatedly uses large words that nobody who speaks English natively would ever use. (Words I know and avoid using so as to avoid scaring the straights...)
    thanks for your appreciation and kind words. always a pleasure and if i scared you, being halloween and all that, i'm sure i can find a candy or two for a poor little boy like you.


    but once again, i apologize for my english. yes, i'm an ESL and yes, i have a lot to learn

    thanks Alex. i think i also made another one there: it should be your old tune.

    thanks ds60. i'll try and remember at least this one: go not goes. could you please elaborate? unlike others i can harsh-learn even from a harsh person like you. up to a point


  11. #86
    It's all Geek to me silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Get a screen reader (there are free ones like NVDA for Windows, Orca for Gnome/Linux, VoiceOver for Mac...)
    I've been wanting to test out screen readers, and didn't realize there was already one on the Mac, so thanks for the tip. I've just been giving VoiceOver a try for the last hour or so. O my, what a depressing, frustrating and ultimately futile experience. And I'm not talking about the web pages I was trying to navigate; I'm talking about the software itself. How do people using this stuff cope? I think I need to go outside and scream at the sky for a while...

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    HTML was invented to be able to present content in a device independent manner -- be it print, screen, teletype, aural, whatever.
    no it wasn't i believe you're confusing IBM GML and its descendent SGML, with HTML, a SGML application that provides a way to use and share documents on an Internet-based system.

    [...] were first detailed in the W3C note "Aural presentation with CSS style sheets" (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Speech/NOTE-ACSS, January 7, 1997) edited by Chris Lilley.
    i believe html was officially borned in 1989. so aural was not one of the reasons html was invented for.

    print. not so. there were other, better choices.

    what's left. www. screen.


    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    [...]
    Given the plethora of device dot pitches, device resolutions, etc that were present when TBL took SGML and did something useful with it, your statement is pure nonsense. From 22x21 9 color plaintext on a VIC-20 to 64x16 monochrome on a TRASH-80 to 80x25 16 color DOS/CPM... to 320x200 4 color CGA to 1152x864 on a monochrome NeXT workstation (like the one TBL was using when he made HTML) to 800x600 16 color IBM 8514. Even from daisy wheel to 9pin line-printer to 1200dpi typesetting - The idea was to make it so none of that mattered and have the content fluidly adjust on the fly to whatever the target was. Identical appearance across devices was impractical at best, impossible at worst. As such the point was NOT to make it appear "the same on screen as on paper" -- but to custom craft it to appear different but acceptable on both.
    [...]
    See the old daisy wheel styling of _underscores_ before and after to indicate bold and ~tilde~ before and after to indicate italic...
    existing technological shortcomings doesn't mean that the intended html goal was not a decent paper-to-screen linked and distributed presentation like the one that it possible today. it just wasn't possible at the time. it was a clumsy ugly temporary productive solution.

  13. #88
    Ripe Tomatos silver trophybronze trophy Rayzur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    future bugs may appear due to your css solution. have you covered all bases? have you thought of every possible scenario? you can never know. tag chaining is full proof in that regard.
    That could happen with ANY property that CSS offers, does that mean we stop using floats just because some future version of any given browser MIGHT have some new float bug? The answer is no, we cross that bridge when we get to it. The same reason we don't start fixing bugs in beta versions of browsers.

    If and when Webkit ever fixes the bug then the CSS fix should not have any effect on it anyways. The display:table; fix is not giving any adverse effects in any other browsers that are rendering the code.

  14. #89
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex
    Who in the heck is gary?
    Gary Turner, a crusty bearded Unix guru from Dallas, TX.

    Even though he uses emacs and PHP instead of vi and Perl, he's still pretty cool : )

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph
    O my, what a depressing, frustrating and ultimately futile experience. And I'm not talking about the web pages I was trying to navigate; I'm talking about the software itself. How do people using this stuff cope? I think I need to go outside and scream at the sky for a while...
    I don't haz a Mac, so I dunno how hard VoiceOver is. JAWS is easy (and easy to listen to), while NVDA I found I could get working in a few minutes, it was very simple in instruction, worked a lot like JAWS, and sounded so terrible I had to slow it way down to understand it (I can listen to JAWS pretty fast... not blind-fast, but fast... it has an excellent sound, like Stephen Hawking).

    Just ignore all the stuff for working on computer programs and focus on the browser to get started. That way you're starting out with a small number of commands. Make a cheat sheet. I still use my JAWS cheat sheet for anything more than teh quick keys.

    i believe html was officially borned in 1989. so aural was not one of the reasons html was invented for.
    Yes it was, since "device independence" means just that: any device. We did have this thing called magnetic tape back then, and yeah, there were (refreshable) braille displays (maybe only at IBM, but they existed).

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I don't haz a Mac, so I dunno how hard VoiceOver is.
    It's nicely presented, and the voiceover is very smooth and nice to listen to (unless you opt instead for one of the weird alternatives, like the whispering guy who sounds like a psycho, or the high-pitched giggling guy who sounds high on amphetamines), but omigod I was going insane trying to navigate a web page with it. No doubt there's a way, but boy do I feel sorry for folks who depend on this stuff. I will try out Jaws soon.

  16. #91
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    Why even start nitpicking at peoples abilities at a second language?
    Personally I don't speak fluent Romanian - lets leave all that at the door shall we?
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
    Only a woman can read between the lines of a one word answer.....

  17. #92
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Off Topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph
    but omigod I was going insane trying to navigate a web page with it. No doubt there's a way, but boy do I feel sorry for folks who depend on this stuff. I will try out Jaws soon.
    If it has something like SayAll, just turn that off first thing. Then it'll wait for YOU to tell it what to read and how much of it. Usually you can arrow down to read one line (you may have to set what "one line" means). Or start hitting tab to hear the focusable stuff.

    On page load usually the title and some basic info is mentioned right off the bat, but this is ok. After that it should stop. If you go between applications it should at least announce the name of the app and whatever it's running (so page title and your browser name for example). You can also set the speed to very slow for getting started.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikeZ View Post
    Why even start nitpicking at peoples abilities at a second language?
    Personally I don't speak fluent Romanian - lets leave all that at the door shall we?
    I was only pointing it out to try and explain the constant contradictions and misunderstandings. I say the opposite he thinks I'm saying the same thing? There's a problem there.

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    ds60. i believe that our opposing sides, even if only accounting for this thread, this shows, at the very least, that i understand you. but you say above:
    • constant contradictions and misunderstandings
    • you say the opposite i think you're saying the same thing


    care to prove it? otherwise leave it to:
    • you don't understand what i'm saying, because of my broken engrish


    thank you.


    man, you just don't know when to quit, do you!? i understand and i appreciate you having a fire burning inside you, but use it for better not for worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    no it wasn't i believe you're confusing IBM GML and its descendent SGML, with HTML, a SGML application that provides a way to use and share documents on an Internet-based system.
    I believe you didn't understand what I was saying. As I said "Took SGML and did something USEFUL with it".

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    i believe html was officially borned in 1989. so aural was not one of the reasons html was invented for.
    I was NOT referring to aural as in the CSS 2.0 specification, but as a medium of conveyance. Screen readers, braille readers, etc are nothing new and pre-date the CSS 2 specification which was invented to SUPPLEMENT those existing tools an enhance their functionality.

    Case in point, JAWS came out in 1995, four years before CSS2 existed, IBM Reader dates back to OS/2 1.2 circa 1989, and of course TBL was working on a NeXT which had it's own screen reader software when it was released. (being the NeXT had a 68030 when most people were still stuck on 68K's or 80286's it was much more practical to implement on that platform)

    Aural as a media distribution type of computer text content predates the CSS 2 specification by at least a decade.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    what's left. www. screen.
    WWW does not mean "screen". Even when it does it does not mean the SAME screen. Again with the wide range of resolutions and dot pitch, thinking 'same layout everywhere' is a total /FAIL/ at web development -- and misses the point of HTML... and CSS... and WCAG...

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    existing technological shortcomings doesn't mean that the intended html goal was not a decent paper-to-screen linked and distributed presentation like the one that it possible today.
    Given that between handhelds, different screen sizes, different printer capabilities and resolutions -- or even that some elements of the document you might not even want SHOWN on the print version, Uhm, NO. That was not the point, and it is NOT possible today. (at least not without it breaking somewhere)

    It is in fact often desirable to NOT put to paper things you are showing on screen and vice-versa... like printing your main menu... or your border images, or all the other ink-wasters that make your page take too long to print if you don't make a custom print.css to remove them or have them ignored. (just as your ul.jumpto accesskeys menu generally you don't set as visible for print or screen, only handheld or CSS off)

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    it was a clumsy ugly temporary productive solution.
    It's only as clumsy and ugly as you make it. I consider it a elegant and simple solution that was both forward and backward looking. The idea of device independant content that can be customized for each possible target by the target is brilliant. The bull that came AFTER during the browser wars where it was used/abused/ignored is where the real problems came from. The problems CSS was invented to solve.

    Oh, I do have to correct myself though, the NeXT TBL was using at CERN was 1120x832, not 1152x864. My bad...

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    i believe you didn't understand what i was saying.

    i clearly said paper to screen: like posters, adverts, scientific works having scientific illustrations, all that paper knowledge and culture we had before and after the monochrome display.


    you instead, talk about faulty screen to paper.


    i said:
    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    [...] the intended html goal was [...] a decent paper-to-screen linked and distributed presentation like the one that it possible today.

    you, on the other hand, address the screen to paper issue:
    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    [...] you might not even want SHOWN on the print version [...]

    It is in fact often desirable to NOT put to paper things you are showing on screen


    as for what www and html serving it are for, here are a couple of excerpts from the very first web page, from its very creator:

    The WorldWideWeb (W3) is a wide-area hypermedia information retrieval initiative aiming to give universal access to a large universe of documents.

    Hypertext is text which contains links to other texts [...] which is not constrained to be text: it can include graphics, video and sound , for example.

    i'm not sure if he was trying to depict television but i believe he staples the screen. he's not describing fax machines, telephones, morse code telegraphs, printers, teletypes.




    there is one more point i'd like to make: were did this appeared from:
    thinking 'same layout everywhere' is a total /FAIL/ at web development -- and misses the point of HTML... and CSS... and WCAG...

    this is written by you under/quoting me saying this:
    what's left. www. screen.
    which doesn't imply anywhere near that i said 'same layout everywhere'. but it does imply that you're trying to muddy the waters again only to have a cause for harsh argument over misunderstandings.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul O'B View Post
    Method 1) Adjust the html mark up to reduce the gaps between tags.

    Cons
    1) Dangerously fragile and liable to break as soon as someone edits the code (noonnope edit: added html code, even if not counting for formatting, will also make your css solution fragile and liable to break. see below.). In my experience 99% of my clients would break this when they add their content ((noonnope edit: this content adding will also hurt your css solution. see below.)) or when their developers convert the page to php or add dynamic data, or when they convert the template into a CMS.

    I just cannot ensure that everyone in the chain will not break the formatting of the html. (noonnope edit: or the html code. see below.)The chain may stretch from here to India and back and I have no control over that. (The css would likely remain untouched and intact through all these stages.) (noonnope edit: but not the html code. and that may easily break your css solution also. see below)

    Method 2) Adjust the CSS.

    Pros

    3) Won't break when someone reformats the html. ((noonnope edit: but it will if manipulating the html code the wrong way. is that so unheard off? see below.))

    4) The chances of the client breaking the relevant css is very unlikely. In fact in a lot of the templates I provide my existing CSS is not even touched. (noonnope edit: but the html code often does. can you 100% be sure, using your css solution, that changes in the html code done after will not break the css solution? no! ) They may add css but they seldom change what I have set up in the first place. If the argument is that the css can accidentally be changed then that could happen to any of the CSS anyway so is really a red herring otherwise we'd have to go back to tables and spacer gifs. (noonnope edit: the argument could be extended to the html code, losing the red herrings on the way. it's a fact it will be changed. your css solution can't cover any and all html changes. see below.)

    5) The html can remain nicely formatted and easy to work with.

    Cons:
    1)
    Client may break the css (None other that I can think of)(noonnope edit: client may break the html code in such way that it will make your css solution useless. see below.)


    "below"

    let's assume the clients decides to apply different formatting to a group of inline-block <li>. so instead of assigning a class to each of these <li>s he decides to wrap some <li>s in another container element and use the class on it. like a <span>.

    now, i know it's hypothetical, that <ul>s only get <li>s as direct descendants, that <span> it's not good for it, but nevertheless it's not such a rare bad code situation you are sure it will never cross your path. quite the opposite.

    and, provided that you use this technique with another container element, that will permit all kinds of elements inside it, like a <div>, and you apply inline-block to <div>s, that the client decides to further sub-wrap, and in the case you client is html&css uneducated, he may also draw the wrong conclusion when you tell him: "i'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. you need to keep in mind these restrictions...".

    after all, he may not quite understand why <span> is not good, as he will see red background on the first two <li>s on webkit using the perverted example below, and say: "but if it's wrong, it should not appear. i think you're full of cow's male partner eliminated processed food" since you only have your word against what he sees and you can't really educate him html&css wise, you cannot say that your css method will ensure for bad markup also, as you imply when you say: "Client may break the css (None other that I can think of)".

    Code:
    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
    <html lang="en">
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
    
    <title>CSS Quiz #35: Fix The Webkit Inline-Block + Word-Spacing Bug</title>
    
    <style type="text/css">
    h1,p {
        margin:0 0 .5em;
        font:bold 1.5em/1.5 arial;
        text-align:center;
    }
    p {font:bold 1em/1.3 arial;}
    
    /*=== UL Parent Rules ===*/
    .nav  {
        text-align:center; /* DO NOT ALTER RULE */   
        word-spacing:-1em; /* DO NOT ALTER RULE */ 
        
        /* EDIT and ADD rules below as you choose! */
        margin:1em 0 0;
        padding:.25em 0;
        list-style:none;
        background:#000;
        display: table;
        width:100%;
    }
    /*=== UL Child Rules ===*/
    .nav li {
        display:-moz-inline-box; /* FF2 and K-Meleon */    
        display:inline-block; /* DO NOT ALTER RULE */ 
        word-spacing:0; /* DO NOT ALTER RULE */ 
    
        /* EDIT and ADD rules below as you choose! */
        margin:0;
        padding:0 .5em;
        font:bold 1em/1.5 arial;
        background:#98FB98;
    }
    /* EDIT and ADD rules below as you choose! */
    .nav li:first-child+li {background:#00FFFF;}
    
    .nav .special {background:red;}
    
    </style>
    
    <!--[if lt IE 8]>
    <style type="text/css">
    /* Let IE6/7 Join In! */
    .nav li { display:inline;}
    </style>
    <![endif]-->
    
    </head>
    <body>
    
    <h1>CSS Quiz #35: Fix The Webkit Inline-Block + Word-Spacing Bug</h1>
    
    <p>Do not alter the HTML format for the quiz. That means no tag-chaining to remove white-space nodes.</p>
    <p>The white-space nodes will be the gaps between the list items, you will see them in Chrome &amp; Safari.</p>
    
    <ul class="nav">
         <span class="special">
          <li>inline-block</li>
          <li>inline-block</li>
         </span>
         <li>inline-block</li>
         <li>inline-block</li>
    </ul>    
    
    </body>
    </html>
    this example is an abomination, and it's only to FORCE an understanding. don't make it the primary witness in your counter pleading (pointing the finger precisely... over there! no, no, it's not you Paul. it's that one. yes, you over there, always making a point on your self proclaimed perfection!). but i'm sure that based on it you get the gist of what i'm saying. it could be very easily changed to a perfectly valid example that will show an easy way to easily break your css solution, and that your css solutions ALSO relies on conditions imposed on the html markup in order to be successful.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    "below"

    let's assume the clients decides to apply different formatting to a group of inline-block <li>. so instead of assigning a class to each of these <li>s he decides to wrap some <li>s in a <span>.
    Now that example is just plain silly and ignores the fact that we are talking about formatting the html not invalidating it. That's a whole different discussion.

    I can't actually believe that you gave that as an honest example!

    The main point I was making that I pass a block of html to the client who then passes it to a programmer who splits the code up into dynamic data or includes or php or whatever. In 100% of the sites I have done this year the formatting of my html has never been preserved and I'm coding 4 or 5 templates a week. We are talking about real life cases here. The client may also occasionally break the css as well but we are talking that in 99.9% probability the client will break the way the html is formatted. The client may break the css as well but not 99.9% of the time as with the html fix.

    There just is no reasonable argument to the contrary as it is basic common sense and you will never convince me otherwise as I value my clients and they trust me.

    The client could also edit the html and delete all of it and say "where's my page gone?". Nothing is ever safe from the hands of the uninitiated

    I have merely provided the common sense argument that is more robust in most situations based on years of dealing with clients and don't really think there is anything more I can say to convince you so we'll have to leave it at that.

  24. #99
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    sorry, Paul, it was never intended as an "honest example"!

    and i did warned:

    this example is an abomination, and it's only to FORCE an understanding.

    but the problem remains if i use, for one example, <div>s inside a <div> instead of <li>s inside <ul>. i will think of something more normal ( that validates ) when i get out of work, to provide you with an example to prove how honest mistakes done by your clients can invalidate your solution. real life cases.

    the problem is that you think that my solution will always end up in the wrong hands, while your solution will always end up in the right hands. and i never defended formatting preservation. no, i advocated some formatting bits being aknowledge as a solution that need to be preserved in a different way. the rest can be put on the ship to Formatting World and party all night long. html comments could as well point that out for the sake of understanding where the client should be aware.

    i never said: my way or your way. but i believe presenting both options to your client would be the professional thing to do. he may choose one or the other after further consulting, since both mean things in the code he has to maintain.

  25. #100
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    i confess. my google search was: inline-table bugs. but that didn't end up as expected. i actually came across another thing.

    Note as well that since every table element requires a table, a cell and a row, where one or more of these is missing, the others are implied around it and all similar consecutive sibling elements (e.g., where there are consecutive table rows, a single table will be implied around all of them).

    <DIV style="display: table-cell">
    </DIV>
    <DIV style="display: table-cell">
    </DIV>

    The above example would have a table and a table row implied around it.



    given the last css quiz, where ds60, once again, mentions table-cell:
    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    My solution in this case is always don't use inline-block; either float them or use display:table-cell...
    the natural observation is: why target the parent with css alterations when you can target the initial subjects: child elements. because the <ul> and <li>s may be cut down to on level <div>s. what that means: another <div> to act as a container for those <div>s like <ul> does for <li>s. not good.

    targeting <li> with display:table-cell is the generalized solution for good browsers. i doesn't generate additional problems: white space bugs.

    for ie6-7, no changes: display:inline with * hacks.

    i believe the answer is indeed this: inline-block is useless. and since the problem was the use of inline-block in the first place, the answer is always replace it with table-cell.

    done. font-size:0 is not needed since there is no white space bug.



    proof. i didn't put ie6-7 hacks there to keep it clean and clear.

    Code:
    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
       "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
    <html lang="en" dir="ltr"><head>
    
      <meta	http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <meta	http-equiv="Content-Language" content="en">
    
      <style type="text/css">  
    
        ul {
          padding:0;
          }
        
        div, li {
          height:50px;
          width:100px;
          display:table-cell;
          border:1px solid red;
          }
        
      </style>
    
    
    </head><body>
    
          <div>one</div>
          <div>two</div>
          <div>three</div>
          <div>four</div>
        
        <ul>
          <li>one</li>
          <li>two</li>
          <li>three</li>
          <li>four</li>
        </ul>
      
    </body></html>


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