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  1. #51
    billycundiff{float:left;} silver trophybronze trophy RyanReese's Avatar
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    The upfront in your face ad banners really kill it for me

    Although I don't feel SP is a tightly knitted group of knowledge sharers, due to a few people (keep in mind I only browse CSS forums) barking at everyone and telling them they are idiots (not in those words per say)
    Always looking for web design/development work.
    http://www.CodeFundamentals.com

  2. #52
    SitePoint Guru rageh's Avatar
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    Buy this book buy that book. It gives the impression that once mighty Sitrepoint has now turned into money-grabbing joint and away from the die hard web community where sharing was utmost priority.

    I understand you guys need to find ways to make money, but members often draw their own conclusions. I know it is an uphill struggle to be a 'selfless web community' and make money at the same time to stay afloat. Very difficulty balancing act.

    One other aspect of Sitepoint that need saving is the quality of posts. This convinces many of the most knowledgeable members to desert thinking there is no longer anything that could challenge them. I think Sitepoint should come up an strategy to keep its jewel.
    ------------------

  3. #53
    Galactic Overlord gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    HAWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipperz View Post
    A couple of years ago the market place was a part of sitepiont it got profitable...taking traffic from the forum to create new sites for profit, taking buyers and sellers and general traffic from the forum to other sites for profit...
    So it sounds like most of your negative feelings have to do with the separation of the Marketplace. That was a legacy decision and one that I am not in a position to justify. My job is to run the forums in their current incarnation so I'm looking for feedback from you guys as to how I can do that better. I appreciate you taking the time to write and I don't mean to dismiss you outright, I just need to clarify what I'm asking.

    As far as the ads go, are you suggesting that there might be a cultural change if we were to get rid of them?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_22 View Post
    ...For example, currently, I see on the homepage feed a topic about "SitePoint T-shirts - What Went Wrong?" While I understand that the overall goal with a thread like this is probably not to generate income, I also understand, too, what message it implies to someone reading it--let's make money through residual mediums, like, say, t-shirts!
    I'm hearing you. That makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_22 View Post
    1.) Reduce the number of blog posts within the homepage feed of the forums. It's somewhat redundant and half the time, if the user wishes to read more about these posts, they'll have already clicked on the link on the sitepoint.com page rather than clicking on it within the forum page.
    That makes sense and is very easily done. I'm not disregarding your other points, I just need some time to digest them.

  4. #54
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Off Topic:


    Not every problem can be fixed with rainbows and unicorns.
    See? That's exactly the kind of comments that isn't necessary, and that brings the mood I'm talking about.

  5. #55
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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  6. #56
    SitePoint Addict
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    Off Topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by jjshell View Post
    See? That's exactly the kind of comments that isn't necessary, and that brings the mood I'm talking about.
    What about comments like: "is there a union on this forum where we can strike for this?"

  7. #57
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    So it sounds like most of your negative feelings have to do with the separation of the Marketplace. That was a legacy decision and one that I am not in a position to justify. My job is to run the forums in their current incarnation so I'm looking for feedback from you guys as to how I can do that better. I appreciate you taking the time to write and I don't mean to dismiss you outright, I just need to clarify what I'm asking.
    To be honest I really don't have any negative feelings.
    I just think sitepiont is a commercial forum trying to turn a profit on the posting, traffic, knowledge and information that accumulates on the forum.

    Most times I visit forums I read some threads and then try to help a few beginners or answer a couple of questions before I leave. To me that is what a forum community is about. Learning and then giving back, Because the beginner asking stupid questions now might be and expert who will come back and answer questions in the years to come.

    At site point the owners are always in the background trying to turn some profit from it all. Why should people go around and give out free knowledge when the owners are trying to package all of their knowledge in books and sell it for profit ? With a link to the forum as free support.
    That kind of kills the whole community forum spirit for me.

    Why should I volunteer at Wal-Mart ? They make money they should just hire people. I would rather go volunteer and put my time and energy in at the community library, community park, an open source software forum.

    I know it is your job to market and moderate sitepiont and it seems like you are trying to find solutions to make site point a community. Personally I think the owners took too much from the forums in the way of marketing and trying to pull profits from it and turned a lot of the more active and knowledgeable posters away.

    I think sitepiont killed the goose that lays golden eggs they got to greedy. This place is a shell of what it used to be. I really wonder if their marketing ventures will be sustainable because they destroyed a lot in the making.

    Sitepiont always did have a commercial feel in the background but over the last couple or years they really have played it out.


    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    As far as the ads go, are you suggesting that there might be a cultural change if we were to get rid of them?

    I,m not really sure what you mean by "cultural" but i think it runs a lot deeper then the ads.

    This is an interesting discussion to me community is complex it is interesting to see what makes it work and what kills it.

  8. #58
    Keep Moving Forward gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
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    So even if Sitepoint was a commerical forum, which it isn't, why should that produce negative feelings?

    Most of us are here trying to promote or gain skills for our own work-from-home business. We'd be just as out for profit as you say the Sitepoint owners are.


    And besides. Sitepoint didn't ups and make itself. Without years of effort by those same owners, it wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't even be having this intelligent conversation across the planet right now. We may well be on Facebook collecting farm animals or whatever.


    AND, without Sitepoint I know I wouldn't have been as good a web-designer as I am now. Back when I joined, Sitepoint introduced the whole idea of web-recommendations to me, and efficient coding practices. I haven't bought a single Sitepoint book. I haven't forked over any money to them at all, and look at what I've gained on their tab.


    Who pays Sitepoint's hosting? Does the "community" pitch in to sponsor their servers? Who pays to promote them? Who pays the Sitepoint staff? Who buys all their machines?


    Okay, you say you don't have negative feelings, zipperz. Fine. But I don't understand why that should even be at risk of producing negative feelings in the first place.

    Sitepoint is give and take. It's a trade.

    I've gained free knowledge and entertainment from them over the years. I give back some time in my posts to others here and there.

    Sounds like a great deal to me.

    Trying to fill the unforgiving minute
    with sixty seconds' worth of distance run.

    Update on Sitepoint's Migration to Discourse

  9. #59
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    So even if Sitepoint was a commerical forum, which it isn't, why should that produce negative feelings?

    Most of us are here trying to promote or gain skills for our own work-from-home business. We'd be just as out for profit as you say the Sitepoint owners are.


    And besides. Sitepoint didn't ups and make itself. Without years of effort by those same owners, it wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't even be having this intelligent conversation across the planet right now. We may well be on Facebook collecting farm animals or whatever.


    AND, without Sitepoint I know I wouldn't have been as good a web-designer as I am now. Back when I joined, Sitepoint introduced the whole idea of web-recommendations to me, and efficient coding practices. I haven't bought a single Sitepoint book. I haven't forked over any money to them at all, and look at what I've gained on their tab.


    Who pays Sitepoint's hosting? Does the "community" pitch in to sponsor their servers? Who pays to promote them? Who pays the Sitepoint staff? Who buys all their machines?


    Okay, you say you don't have negative feelings, zipperz. Fine. But I don't understand why that should even be at risk of producing negative feelings in the first place.

    Sitepoint is give and take. It's a trade.

    I've gained free knowledge and entertainment from them over the years. I give back some time in my posts to others here and there.

    Sounds like a great deal to me.

    Like I said I don't have negative feelings, I am just posting how I see sitepiont.

    Calling peoples posts negative or hateful are usually just an uneducated way to try to discredit them.

    Like I said Hawk was asking for feedback and opinions and these are mine. No need to try to discredit them. Seems like others have similar feeling as I do also, sorry not everyone thinks the same as you.

    I,m glad you have benefited from sitepiont for me I have gained most of my skills and knowledge other places so sitepiont doesn't have the same value to me.

    If Hawk wanted all pat on the back everything is fine she probably would of started a thread called "why do you love sitepiont". But thats not what it is it is "The Culture of The SitePoint Community - Your View"

  10. #60
    Keep Moving Forward gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    Shaun(OfTheDead)'s Avatar
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    Where did I call your post negative or hateful? I acknowledged that you said you had no negative feelings.


    The point of my post was, I don't understand why the idea of Sitepoint being a business out to make money should make forum members feel less of it. Because we're all out to make money too, or we wouldn't be here.

    Therefore I don't think that's the reason.

    Trying to fill the unforgiving minute
    with sixty seconds' worth of distance run.

    Update on Sitepoint's Migration to Discourse

  11. #61
    Quake 1 Addict CreedFeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masm50 View Post
    I've been around here a few years now and whilst I have seen the discussion on the forums vary a bit from time to time I don't think things have really changed much - most people are around to both learn and help others which is what the forums are for.

    But, I have seen a change in Sitepoint.com (and affiliated sites/courses/books/etc) which rubs off a little on the forum. Sitepoint.com used to be full of news and articles about building websites - so PHP, MySQL, HTML, CSS, etc tutorials being the focus points - and then news on the latest tools for web development (Dreamweaver to FTP software to Apache...).
    If you look at the frontpage of Sitepoint.com right now the news items are about feed readers, fear marketing, a corporate logo, promotion for an SP course, and advert for SP live stream, news about Google Goggles and then just two articles about web development (one on Drupal, and one on PHP conditions). That frontpage is not that of a web development site but more like what you would come across on blogs like Mashable.
    This is exactly what I was going to post. Although it's not directly related to the forums, for me, I visit the homepage and then navigate to the forums. When the homepage has "garbage" articles on it, I tend to just move on my way, and only end up in the forums when I'm looking for answers on a problem.

    SitePoint.com used to publish only useful articles and tutorials. Now you see a few development articles smashed between random topics, lists, etc. that, as masm50 said, look like something from Mashable. Seeing that "garbage" is a turnoff for me personally. I've always known SitePoint as a place relating to web development. The slogan on the front page even says "Become a better web developer." Yet now there seems to be much more "tech news" related articles versus straight up design and development articles and tutorials.

    I know this is not something Hawk can necessarily change directly but that's my two cents.
    -- Steve Caponetto
    Quake 1 Resurrection :: CreedFeed

  12. #62
    SitePoint Wizard Wolf_22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    I'm not disregarding your other points, I just need some time to digest them.
    No worries, HAWK. I'm sure you have a full plate anyway.

  13. #63
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    Where did I call your post negative or hateful? I acknowledged that you said you had no negative feelings.
    Soory my mistake, poor reading skills. I am a skimmer sometimes.

  14. #64
    Galactic Overlord gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreedFeed View Post
    ... "Become a better web developer." Yet now there seems to be much more "tech news" related articles versus straight up design and development articles and tutorials.

    I know this is not something Hawk can necessarily change directly but that's my two cents.
    That is awesome feedback and it is definitely something that I can do something about - at least as far as raising it for discussion with the rest of the company. Matt Mickiewicz has already singled your post out as a great comment that hits the nail on the head.

    Quote Originally Posted by zipperz View Post
    If Hawk wanted all pat on the back everything is fine she probably would of started a thread called "why do you love sitepiont". But thats not what it is it is "The Culture of The SitePoint Community - Your View"
    Absolutely - and I really appreciate your feedback.

  15. #65
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    I think the 'vibe' at Sitepoint is overall pretty good.. things could be worse, it could be like d*gitalpint!

  16. #66
    Galactic Overlord gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
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    Haha, you've made my day

  17. #67
    Quake 1 Addict CreedFeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    That is awesome feedback and it is definitely something that I can do something about - at least as far as raising it for discussion with the rest of the company. Matt Mickiewicz has already singled your post out as a great comment that hits the nail on the head.
    Glad to know I can help I may not post much here, but I've been coming here since back in 2002. I visit the site almost daily and find the forums to be a great resource for finding information.... just hope the front page articles can turn back to that sort of resource as well.
    -- Steve Caponetto
    Quake 1 Resurrection :: CreedFeed

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post
    I think the 'vibe' at Sitepoint is overall pretty good.. things could be worse, it could be like d*gitalpint!
    As I've said a few times, that particular site... it's very Mercenary if you venture out of their html and CSS areas. Friend of mine refers to that site as a "Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy"

    Basically if DP is Mos Eisley, SP is more like Nar Shaddaa.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipperz View Post
    I just think sitepiont is a commercial forum trying to turn a profit on the posting, traffic, knowledge and information that accumulates on the forum.
    I still don't understand why. I maybe able to understand if you could point exactly which actions make you think like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by zipperz View Post
    Most times I visit forums I read some threads and then try to help a few beginners or answer a couple of questions before I leave. To me that is what a forum community is about. Learning and then giving back, Because the beginner asking stupid questions now might be and expert who will come back and answer questions in the years to come.
    And that has changed? I still see people answering newbies ... and not-so-newbies asking questions and being answered too
    Quote Originally Posted by zipperz View Post
    At site point the owners are always in the background trying to turn some profit from it all. Why should people go around and give out free knowledge when the owners are trying to package all of their knowledge in books and sell it for profit ? With a link to the forum as free support.
    That kind of kills the whole community forum spirit for me.
    Can't understand why you think this. Call me thick (probably with good reason) but I don't get it.

    As far as I understand the process to write a book for SP has nothing to do with the forums, and the people that write for them are not always forum members. But when they are, it is because they want to be and they get paid for it. They put their name forward to work for SP.

  20. #70
    SitePoint Addict
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    If I compare to other webdesign forums, this one has always been very (read: more) helpful to me.

    Oh, I aswel noticed on other websites that there are more "pigs" insulting other forum members than here...
    so relatively, it's not so bad here ;-)

  21. #71
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    And that has changed? I still see people answering newbies ... and not-so-newbies asking questions and being answered too.
    The level of discussion. With less of the older more experienced posters that used to frequent sitepiont their was alot more valuable discussion about running sites, building sites, etc.
    Now I mostly see a lot of "why won't my image show up ?" "How I make be first in google ? " with threads full of people that have less then 30 posts and will wander through and probably not come back. With a few lame articles pasted on the front page about web 2.0, SEO, Social Marketing or what ever is the lasted buzz word.

    Basically the quality of sitepiont has gone down. Not much to see here now days. (for me anyways)

    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    Can't understand why you think this. Call me thick (probably with good reason) but I don't get it.
    I have already posted my thoughts on how this site was run and manged in earlier posts and I feel like I am crowding this thread, time for others thoughts on the subject.

  22. #72
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    The biggest problem with the Sitepoint community is that it's just too full of clowns who can talk the talk but can't walk the walk.

    Put it this way, my name's Andrew. And my last name is as per what's shown in my signature link. So I'm for real. I don't hide behind a pseudonym. Why would I?

    And I also link to the business I own. Why wouldn't I? It's real. It's me and a small handful of employees. We work from an office near my house.

    Seems to me though that of late Sitepoint has allowed its web design forums to become dominated by a small group of overly opinionated idiots who DO hide behind pseudonyms and who quite clearly do NOT have any professional involvement with this industry.

    And on the rare occasion that some of these fools do give out a link to a personal site, all I see is garbage. Pure and utter garbage. Some of these clowns have less design ability than a peanut.

    Sitepoint never used to be like this. It used to be better. Five years ago, it was much better. My guess is that most of the pros have just given up the ghost and moved on.

    In simple English -- if you wanna be a mentor or a self-proclaimed expert, at least be adult enough to use your real name. And if you want to get opinionated or be taken seriously, at least link to your personal business so that users have the opportunity to decide whether or not you are worth taking seriously. And if you can't do this (and let's be honest, it's pretty F*****G basic), get off the forum.
    Last edited by molona; Oct 16, 2010 at 00:52. Reason: Hey! we understand completely... no need to write the word :-p

  23. #73
    SitePoint Enthusiast that_tim_fella's Avatar
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    Firstly, I'm a lurker and don't remotely consider myself part of the community - just look at my post count to date I joined!

    But I do remember "Ye Olde Days" and I've watched Sitepoint develop over the years as a forum and business. I've bought lots of books and subscribed to the (mostly excellent) newsletters.

    I'd suggest the answer to the original question has already been made by "seriocomic" in post #3.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew-bkk View Post
    Seems to me though that of late Sitepoint has allowed its web design forums to become dominated by a small group of overly opinionated idiots who DO hide behind pseudonyms and who quite clearly do NOT have any professional involvement with this industry.
    I have a feeling that you're talking about the staff here. If we're a bunch of overly opinated idiots is a matter of opinion. Some people will think that we are, some people will think that we are not (hopefully ). Regarding hiding behind pseudonyms... I think that I can speak from everyone else that we don't hide. When you signed up you had to use a user name and so I did... but the reasons to use an alias instead of my real name had nothing to do with hiding and lots to do with fun Of course, when I signed up I never thought that I was going to be part of the staff!

    What I mean is you're making a dangerous assumption here.

  25. #75
    SitePoint Wizard masm50's Avatar
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    On the pseudonyms point - I certainly haven't noticed people hiding behind them.
    As molona says - everyone just picks a username. Some use their names, others pick nicknames, others (like me) picked something unique that has a personal reason behind it.

    On the point of people talking the talk but not walking the walk, then I see that as less of an issue. Firstly these forums are for development and design - not everyone is a designer or wants to be. Also, if someone has chirped up to answer a question then that's great - that is what the forums are for. If the answer helps out the person asking the question then everyone wins - why does it matter that that user hasn't used that technique on the sites in their sig?


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