SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 109

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Galactic Overlord gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    HAWK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    12,493
    Mentioned
    943 Post(s)
    Tagged
    14 Thread(s)

    The Culture of The SitePoint Community - Your View

    Yesterday I started a thread about my failed community t-shirt project, and I got a bit more than I bargained for. One quote in particular gave me a shock.

    ... the atmosphere around here over the last few years has gone from "the fun place to be to discuss web design" to "watch Sitepoint make as much money as they can" with the help of the volunteer forum members.
    I think that this quote seems to be indicative of how many people are feeling at the moment, which means that I'm doing something wrong.

    Before I ask you to tell my why you think this culture change has occurred, I first need to point out that the quote isn't accurate in it's entirety. Our SitePoint community actually stands beside the SitePoint 'the company' and is not a money making venture in any way, shape or form. Forum staff are not responsible for making money for the company. There is no onus on me as Community Manager to generate any kind of income for SitePoint. I love that.

    So, that being said, I have two questions for you. What is it about the culture here at the forums that gives the impression that we are trying to make money and what do you think I can do to turn things around so that this goes back to being "the fun place to be to discuss web design"?

  2. #2
    It's all Geek to me silver trophybronze trophy
    ralph.m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Melbourne, AU
    Posts
    24,103
    Mentioned
    448 Post(s)
    Tagged
    8 Thread(s)
    I've only been around for the last year and a half, so I can't compare with yesteryear. But I would think that the forums now are a fun place to discuss web design. The only thing I can think of is that when a book or other product is for sale, the banners at the top of the page are a bit obtrusive and perhaps could be considered as 'in your face' marketing. (Mind you, though, I think it's perfectly fair enough for SP to be displaying them.)

    Other than that, the world economy has gone sour over the last few years, and this in itself could be changing people's outlook on things—regardless of whether or not SP is doing anything differently. A lot of people use the forums, so SP must be doing something right. Are there any stats on forum visits now compared with a few years ago? </my-worthless-contribution>
    Facebook | Google+ | Twitter | Web Design Tips | Free Contact Form

    Forum Usage: Tips on posting code samples, images and more

    Forrest Gump: "IE is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you're gonna get."

  3. #3
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I find SitePoint looking for information about web development and I'm really glad that they have good products for sale, because a forum is a fun place to discuss and nothing more, you can't get a full in depth explanation on how things work in a forum.

    I'm not an active member of this forum or any other forum to be truth. I don't have the feeling that SitePoint is all about the money, there's a lot of free information in the forums and specially on the blogs. I guess some people dislike the ads, but I don't mind (the cloud banner is kind of cute).

    I don't know who is in charge of the SitePoint Twitter account, I think he/she is doing a great job promoting the forum and several community driven projects, so stop complaining!

  4. #4
    Galactic Overlord gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    HAWK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    12,493
    Mentioned
    943 Post(s)
    Tagged
    14 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by nataliav View Post
    I don't know who is in charge of the SitePoint Twitter account, I think he/she is doing a great job promoting the forum and several community driven projects, so stop complaining!
    Thanks, you've made my day.

  5. #5
    Motivated Procrastinator seriocomic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Outside the bubble
    Posts
    1,275
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sarah you've been around here as long as I have, but much more involved than me (i've lurked more than I have contributed), but I can say that the community was "tighter" back in the earlier days - there was more knowledge "sharing" rather than knowledge "draining".

    Additionally, the popular forums that started as the marketplaces have now been spat-out as 99Designs.com and Flippa.com - which I think was a sensible business move on the part of the SP founders and operators. However, they are commercial in nature and have been the monetization of the fora in some aspect - perhaps that is the perception.

    The new membership of SP, at least in the areas I participate, are much more of an almost different forum persona - in that they sign-in, ask/get and leave. With the evolution of different forums that have become more niche, or operate under a different engagement model (see Quora), then you can't expect that today's SP will operate the same as it did in 1999, 2003 or even 2007.

    My 2c.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Tyssen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Brisbane, QLD
    Posts
    4,067
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by seriocomic View Post
    there was more knowledge "sharing" rather than knowledge "draining".
    I haven't been as active on SP as much in recent years as I used to. Whenever I have stopped by here recently, I nearly always find any of the topics I'd be interested in replying to already answered, so just move on.

  7. #7
    padawan silver trophybronze trophy markbrown4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    4,107
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyssen View Post
    I haven't been as active on SP as much in recent years as I used to. Whenever I have stopped by here recently, I nearly always find any of the topics I'd be interested in replying to already answered, so just move on.
    I feel pretty similar.
    I found Sitepoint during study and found some great people here willing to show me the ropes. I enjoyed learning and contributing because I was able to help others in the same boat.

    Now that i'm the 9-5 I am only able to wave as I pass by.
    I have always liked the community driven aspects of the forum though - contests, CSS quizes etc..

    And I find Molona / mizwizzy' podcast segment particularly entertaining

  8. #8
    SitePoint Mentor silver trophybronze trophy

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Preston, Lancashire
    Posts
    1,377
    Mentioned
    72 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by markbrown4 View Post
    Now that i'm the 9-5 I am only able to wave as I pass by.
    I use to be in the same boat, but now I have my own work I can pretty much chose to post forum posts whenever, and it really helps too.

    @zipperz

    I have to agree with you here, you're quite right.
    follow me on ayyelo, Easy WordPress; specializing in setting up themes!

  9. #9
    #titanic {float:none} silver trophy
    molona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    from Madrid to Heaven
    Posts
    8,175
    Mentioned
    233 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by seriocomic View Post
    Sarah you've been around here as long as I have, but much more involved than me (i've lurked more than I have contributed), but I can say that the community was "tighter" back in the earlier days - there was more knowledge "sharing" rather than knowledge "draining".
    I think that's the case. I don't venture much outside the GC and Community forums as I much as I would like so take this with a pinch of salt. When I do leave the Community forums, I see a lot of newbie questions... which it is not really bad in itself but my own development and learning is important too.

    This doesn't mean that there aren't interesting threads or new interesting stuff to learn and practice. It is simply that it is harder to find for me unless it is featured.

    True, I don't do that much effort to search for it so it is my own fault, partially.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Black Max's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,029
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, I'll say this much. I've been on the forums in my current incarnation since, what, 2007?, and not once has anyone from SP approached me in any way to help SP make any money in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Had they done so, I would have told them to go to hell; had they asked again, I would have left. I think the marketing efforts SP engages in on the site and on the forums are minimal and acceptable (though the popups annoy me). Whether it's "fun" or not to talk design (I think it is!), the SP forums are one of the best places to get informed advice and assistance, both for "experts" and "newbies," on the 'net. It is probably one of the most "newbie-friendly" forums for design anywhere. That is probably the biggest single reason why I've stuck around so long.

    I'm not rallying 'round the flag or currying favor with the SP Powers that Be. I could care less what they think. I'm simply stating the situation as I see it. For anyone to say, whether by direct statement or by implication, that the SP Forums exist to help SP make money, that only indicates their total lack of understanding of what goes on in these forums.

  11. #11
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    11
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Question

    It could be that SitePoint only tries to build the community because they're trying to increase revenue (and let's be honest, it almost certainly helps revenue). Or they could simply be excited about Web design and development and want other people to be too. Either way, I think the marketing efforts to get people involved would be about the same, and either way, we're making a judgement of a person's (or company's) motives, which is impossible to do 100% accurately. Sadly, motives are rarely altruistic, and also sadly, we often assume people are less altruistic than they may in fact be. The truth most often lies in the middle (they almost assuredly are excited about this stuff, or they wouldn't make it a career, but all companies also need to find better ways of making money to survive and compete). Ultimately, all you can ask is whether or not certain actions make the community a better place or not. While I don't participate in the community, I always pay attention to SitePoint and have recommended the site and products to many people because I do believe that they are trying to make the Web a better place (and succeeding, I'd argue). </philosophy>

  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,582
    Mentioned
    29 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've been around on Sitepoint for a long time too, sometimes more active than others. I've never felt like the community has turned into some "money machine using volunteers". In fact, the only thing I could think of that used volunteers to create any type of money was the T-shirt project and the community book. Even those I don't think are meant to make money.

    I think the T-shirt contest was more to create some cool community shirts than to generate a profit.

    The book I see more of a means to become a published author than as a way to make money for Sitepoint. Sure, Sitepoint will likely make some money from it, but they're also going to be spending likely hundreds of man hours editing the whole thing.

    Aside from those two things, I don't remember anything even remotely close to the community being meant as a money-machine.

    I know over the years I've gotten help with many questions I probably couldn't have found on my own, and I know it's never cost me a cent.

    I actually can't think of any thing that could be changed to change this attitude in others. I actually didn't even notice the book banner at the top (I had to scroll up to see what they were talking about when a previous poster mentioned it). I think most of us are well trained at ignoring ads.

    If I can think of anything though, I'll certainly let you know.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    3,133
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't think Sitepoint is any less of a community, and I don't see it trying to grab money either personally.

  14. #14
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Brussels
    Posts
    377
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For me, it's a community. I'm not so long on this forum here... but I've always have been helped quite good.

    But for new visitors, they kn&#243;w it's a .com url that stands for commercial, like every .com website. So don't be dissapointed if there are ads on the website, if they sell stuff, etc... It's NORMAL.

    Apart from that, the community is still fun for me... to be honest, I still haven't found a better webdesign forum around...

  15. #15
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    150
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I created a virtual society website a few years ago (which I sold to cheap later) and it now has 2 million members and 200 million page views a month.

    After a few months of establishment website costs skyrocketed (a few dedicated servers etc.) and I could not pay the costs. So I started putting banners, advertisements and permium membership. The website started to produce some revenue after 1 year. Anyway now, under new management, the website produces $50,000 a month (it is in a developing country).

    Every move toward monetizing is being condemned by users but anyway, in order to compete you need to make innovations and expansions. For that , you need money.

    You may say forum contributors help in creating content for SP and also in gathering and keeping members (which translates into ebook sales, course fees and premium subscription). But the company is also enriching the website (including those books, courses etc.) which makes it more precious to members.

    How many facebook communities are as useful or even comparable to this website? I personally have always got my answers from this website and it has been among my top 3 resources. People here have always been kind to answer my questions.

    Another alternative to SP is to allow bigger websites like facebook eat all the cake, become billion dollars rich without giving back much of the value to the users.

    I support monetizing of the website (and the forum) on the condition that it still remains an open source of information to the users and provides free useful content along with the fee based. I prefer this to a NO-SP anymore scenario.

    BTW I hate facebook like general interest websites (in comparison to professional communities like SP) when it comes to technical discussions and resources.

  16. #16
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Brussels
    Posts
    377
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sarmadys View Post
    But the company is also enriching the website (including those books, courses etc.) which makes it more precious to members.
    Hmm, yes.
    What I love to sitepoint books is that their layout and style is quite good. More easy to read than dull books like Wrox, O'Reilly, etc...
    I have a few webdesign books from Peachpit Press that are worth reading, not only for the content, but same reason: good layout as the Sitepoint books.

    What I dislike is, that SitePoint seems to write new books that are a little too fancy, marketing-like, and less interesting for me to buy for some reason. First there were the development books which came out super:
    Simply Javascript, The Art & Science Of ...
    Database Driven Websites (php)
    HTML and CSS references, anthologies, ...

    But it seems, since they've already written books about those topics, it's hard to write another book about the same topic, it would be squeezing the lemon too much. But they needed new books, for new revenues. For that reason, it seemed like SitePoint decided to write a few books as their 'design' section:

    "Create Stunning HTML Email", "Fancy Form Design", "Photography for the Web", "Sexy Web Design", ...

    For some reason I dislike them a bit, these try to keep you busy, making you creative reading a book, without a lot of 'new' material or content. While there are already lots of books about CSS that try to let you think
    about creating websites the good way.

    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    But then you couldn't pay me to poke my head into the entire "sitepoint books" or worse, "Manage your site / Host your site" sections... While nowhere near as ... mercenary, as say the entire forums at another unrelated 'point' website involving 00110101, those areas are still chock full of scammers and promotions that, well... I'd probably get myself banned if I posted what I REALLY thought about 2/3rds of the threads in there... but that's typical of once you get the fly-by-night marketing scam idiots in there and the nimrods who actually buy into the "get rich quick" nonsense.
    As in "posting a new thread to get a decent response on how to solve your problem, and finally get a reply with a link to the book section, where you can buy a book where that solution is explained" ?
    Quote Originally Posted by sg707 View Post
    With recent give away for sitepoint books, I think it's really easy to think there are more free prizes ^_^ hopefully more on the way.
    It's a good way to motivate people on this forums.
    I won a book once by a competition, but I actually have never received it. Probably something went wrong by the mail service.
    Still, a good way to keep visitors coming back.

  17. #17
    om nom nom nom Stomme poes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    10,269
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    As in "posting a new thread to get a decent response on how to solve your problem, and finally get a reply with a link to the book section, where you can buy a book where that solution is explained"
    No, as in content writing/blogging, social networking, and SEO sections. There's good stuff in there somewhere, but it's drowned out by crap.

    I've answered questions by pointing to books, but I didn't think to point to the book section, lawlz.

  18. #18
    #titanic {float:none} silver trophy
    molona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    from Madrid to Heaven
    Posts
    8,175
    Mentioned
    233 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bulevardi View Post
    I won a book once by a competition, but I actually have never received it. Probably something went wrong by the mail service.
    Off Topic:

    I assume that that was the case.
    Did you ever contacted a member of the staff so your problem could be sorted out? That would be even worse


    My only worry is that it is really tough to get feedback from people and it seems to be harder to get them involved in contests and competitions. Maybe it is because we're rushing all the time, or maybe it is because we're not doing it right.

  19. #19
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Brussels
    Posts
    377
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    Off Topic:

    I assume that that was the case.
    Did you ever contacted a member of the staff so your problem could be sorted out? That would be even worse
    Off Topic:

    No, haven't contacted them, didn't want to bother someone about something that was free.
    As I work at a client service (replace: "client", "complaint"), I get complaints 24/7, so I'm quite tired of that. I'm not likely a guy who is contacting other 'client serices' or stuff like that very easy if it's not necessary. It's the last thing on my 'to do list'.
    If it would be the case that it's something that I paid lots of money for, ok, I would get in contact... but this was a free present.

    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    My only worry is that it is really tough to get feedback from people and it seems to be harder to get them involved in contests and competitions. Maybe it is because we're rushing all the time, or maybe it is because we're not doing it right.
    That's because competitions are mostly at the time I'm on holidays

  20. #20
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    329
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    To me what defines "Community" to me is a group that participates in making something, running something, the decisions, management ect.

    To me Sitepiont is a commercial forum where the owners make the decisions with profit in mind. Commercial Forum vs Community Forum

    I go to a few community forums and I usually get a sense of community especially with opensorce forums they have a feel of a group or community working together to create something and when changes need to be made it becomes a Community decision not a owner decision or a corporate decision.

    I have not been very active on sitepiont a couple of years ago I spent some time lurking and sold a site on sitepiont. My impression back then was it was more of a community forum where you could exchange knowledge and tips and buy and sell a site for a few bucks.
    My impression of sitepiont changed a lot when they started Flippa and basically most of the community/members was against the pricing model. But it was not a community decision it was a corporate decision based on profit. That’s ok, people want to make money but it seemed like sitepiont forgot about the members that made it all happen and never asked any kind of input basically just "what color looks good".

    Community forums to me are a place to exchange knowledge and help each other grow you learn and then try to give back and keep it all going. Commercial forums always have owners in the background trying to turn a profit from the knowledge base and the knowledge exchange.

    To me "The Culture of The SitePoint Community" is a commercial forum and community seems more like a marketing term.

    JMO

  21. #21
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    150
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zipperz View Post
    ...
    But it was not a community decision it was a corporate decision based on profit. That’s ok, people want to make money but it seemed like sitepiont forgot about the members that made it all happen and never asked any kind of input basically just "what color looks good".
    JMO
    May I ask, how do you feel about facebook communities? You know that facebook has become one of the most huge content sites (beside the people's directory) and that also has been done because of the content producing users. They are a perhaps $20 billion company now and I am not sure they give back to the users as much as SP.

    They also rarely ask or comply with the requests of users and as any other company, the main purpose is to have a higher net income at the end of the year (otherwise they will need to close the doors and we won't have SP anymore).

    I have operated at least 30 websites (some with several hundred thousands of users) and none of them (except the one I mentioned above) exists anymore. That's because I could not monetize and therefore maintain them.

    My time is not free and I have a living to manage. SP staff have family, kids and wives to manage. Or they should devote their lives to us internet users

  22. #22
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    329
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sarmadys View Post
    May I ask, how do you feel about facebook communities? You know that facebook has become one of the most huge content sites (beside the people's directory) and that also has been done because of the content producing users. They are a perhaps $20 billion company now and I am not sure they give back to the users as much as SP.
    I don't feel Facebook&#169; is a community. It is a place to put up a small page and link it with your friends, you and your friends are a community but Facebook&#169; is just a company that provides a place for you to have a blog. Just because Godaddy hosts websites and YellowPages list contact info it doesn't make them a "community"

    A "Community" to me is a place run by the Community. A Library and City Park is community because the community makes the decisions and ultimately runs it, Wal-mart will claim to be "community" but they are a business run by owners.

    There is a difference between community and businesses. Just because a business uses the marketing term "community" doesn't really make them community.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarmadys View Post
    They also rarely ask or comply with the requests of users and as any other company, the main purpose is to have a higher net income at the end of the year (otherwise they will need to close the doors and we won't have SP anymore).

    I have operated at least 30 websites (some with several hundred thousands of users) and none of them (except the one I mentioned above) exists anymore. That's because I could not monetize and therefore maintain them.

    My time is not free and I have a living to manage. SP staff have family, kids and wives to manage. Or they should devote their lives to us internet users
    They can volunteer to moderate a community forum on their free time or they can try to be a professional forum moderator a turn "a higher net income at the end of each year" for a commercial forum.. ? idono ? it is up to them.

    Plenty of forums run on donations premium memberships and volunteer moderators some people just like to give back to the community that gave to them.that's what Community is about..

    When you start talking about commercial forum and business most people do not want to work for free so they can watch others have a higher net income at the end of the year.

  23. #23
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    150
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zipperz View Post
    I don't feel Facebook© is a community. It is a place to put up a small page and link it with your friends, you and your friends are a community but Facebook© is just a company that provides a place for you to have a blog. Just because Godaddy hosts websites and YellowPages list contact info it doesn't make them a "community"
    I stressed multiple times that I am talking about Facebook groups and pages NOT the people directory (profiles, walls).

  24. #24
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    329
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sarmadys View Post
    I stressed multiple times that I am talking about Facebook groups and pages NOT the people directory (profiles, walls).
    Ok, well you lost me on the comparison. = " ?

    Facebook is a free place to put up some info and do a search of others basically a directory listing with some ads.

    A forum is a place to share info, knowledge, tips, discussions, etc When a forum becomes commercialized the owners try to make money off of the accumulated info so basically they are exploiting free labor. Yes forums have expenses like hosting etc which in Community forums are covered by the members through donations maybe even some ads if the site is coming up short and the if members agree on it =Community.

    A place like Facebook is basically a directory and they make money off of traffic and ads. very different types of sites. I don't know about these "Facebook groups" you are talking about. ? I must be out of the loop.

  25. #25
    Is Still Alive silver trophybronze trophy RetroNetro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,883
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The point of my quote...
    the atmosphere around here over the last few years has gone from "the fun place to be to discuss web design" to "watch Sitepoint make as much money as they can" with the help of the volunteer forum members.
    ...was not to single out forum members as having asked me for money. My point is the reason Sitepoint is popular and makes money, is the forums and it's helpful members. We all volunteer our time (for whatever reason) which attracts more users, who are the people that buy the products Sitepoint has for sale.

    What is it about the culture here at the forums that gives the impression that we are trying to make money
    The banner at the top that I'm forced to hide with this:
    Code CSS:
    @-moz-document domain("sitepoint.com") {
    #promobar{display:none;}
    }
    Says above all else the first thing we want (is some money) you to see is an advertisement as opposed to any of the content below it. The ads on every page (even my profile page has an ad on it).

    After the success of the JavaScript course. I've seen a rush to get as many of these 'money makers' available as possible and I receive no less than 5 emails letting me know about each and every SP deal. (I'm sure there is a setting to not receive emails I am just too lazy to go look for it)

    Though let me say I have no issue with SP making money and growing as a company. That's what business is all about. It's really just a personal thing with me. I tend to like the underdog. Not the team that wins every year.

    Lets take Metallica for example. I was the biggest Metallica fan once upon a time. Though they started getting more popular and selling more albums then once their original bassist died. They totally sold out and turned from small metal act into the Metallica money making corporate machine. I lost interest.

    So anyway my point was not to make Sitepoint look bad and definitely not to make the forum members look bad it was just my opinion of why I was not buying a t-shirt.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •