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  1. #26
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCrux View Post
    As I said, it's a world view problem. Enjoy the fruits of knowing you are absolutely, without a doubt correct. People without money are not going to spend a lot.

    I'll continue on in my delusion of not targeting people without the money or wherewithal to pay. Better yet, I'll sell web design to the Amish. I will rationalize this with what every last person who's used this line of reasoning knows "Everybody needs a web site."

    Attention Eskimos: Ice Cubes For Sale. Now I just have to start a web forum for people to pointlessly gripe about their customers not having an ice budget.
    Each to his own.

    Some of us enjoy providing help to businesses just starting out and are grateful for the privilege of using our talents to do so. Some of us enjoy working with real people who run a business instead of a corporation that cares about nothing more than the gosh almighty dollar. I've worked for them both and even though the money is less per project, I'll take the small businessman any day over the corporate know it all.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  2. #27
    SitePoint Mentor silver trophybronze trophy

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    @Shyflower

    If a large company goes under or decides to outsource elsewhere then you can quickly left strung and dry. You will probably gain more financial security from many small clients as oppose to one large client.

    I use to work for large corporate clients, websites over 500 pages and most of this was done independently. Even if I made 2, 3 times a much I would still not be happy. It was too much work, and not enough time to get in a personal touch or give some idle chit chat to me clients. I prefer the small guy over the large guy any day.

    I regards to investments. I will never ever give money out to somebody who says to me that by doing so I will be making money, never! I don't care who they are. I simply don't trust them, and if they were so confident then they should be prepared to work for free, and once I have got the money they so adamantly believe I will get, then I'll pay them. So I would never hire a copy-writer to make money from them, but instead hire them to improve the readability of a website which will attract more people to read it.

    In in this process, a developer, a designer, a SMO, a SEO get's involved to make the wheel spinning to make money. This is a joined effort of many people's efforts who worked very hard.
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  3. #28
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    @Shyflower

    If a large company goes under or decides to outsource elsewhere then you can quickly left strung and dry. You will probably gain more financial security from many small clients as oppose to one large client.

    I use to work for large corporate clients, websites over 500 pages and most of this was done independently. Even if I made 2, 3 times a much I would still not be happy. It was too much work, and not enough time to get in a personal touch or give some idle chit chat to me clients. I prefer the small guy over the large guy any day.

    I regards to investments. I will never ever give money out to somebody who says to me that by doing so I will be making money, never! I don't care who they are. I simply don't trust them, and if they were so confident then they should be prepared to work for free, and once I have got the money they so adamantly believe I will get, then I'll pay them. So I would never hire a copy-writer to make money from them, but instead hire them to improve the readability of a website which will attract more people to read it.

    In in this process, a developer, a designer, a SMO, a SEO get's involved to make the wheel spinning to make money. This is a joined effort of many people's efforts who worked very hard.
    I agree whole heartedly with the first part of what you said. However, your take on copy as an investment is out of whack.

    Every website not only needs but also revolves around the content, whether it is served as writing, photos, videos or anything else the end user sees.

    As website visitors (the end-users) are potential customers, that content needs to compel them to action. That's why copy writing is an investment. The problem is that too many developers and designers are afraid to present it as such to their clients. Clients tend to look at is as an expense and no matter what you want to say, it is not an expense. It is an investment in their business.

    When a business advertises in a print medium or, for instance, on televison, they do so with the expectation that their ad will generate a greater return than it cost. It is exactly the same thing with website content. Do you know of any advertising medium that will wait to be paid until the return has been established?

    For that matter, can you invest in stocks on Wall Street and not pay until you receive your return? If you can, give me the name of your broker. I'd like to make him mine.

    You can present the need for expertly written copy to your clients in any way you wish to present it... or you can ignore it entirely and end up with the situation that prompted you to start this thread. No matter how you present it, content is what it is.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  4. #29
    SitePoint Mentor silver trophybronze trophy

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    However, your take on copy as an investment is out of whack.
    To some it might be, I was stung at a young age very hard, and I am very skeptical on people who try to sell something to me and an investment. It's not really something I can change in myself.

    No investment is guaranteed, and the reason people won't put their necks down on the line is because they simply don't know if you will make money or not, and if they did they would go bankrupted. This is why I am skeptical of people trying to place themselves as an investment.

    Ideally I want to know how people go about using copywriters, nothing to do with investments. How people can co-ordinate with them, and how things normally work out from their experiences. Obviously I am not doubting I will need a copy-writer, but I have to see how I will market this with the services they can provide. I know many don't use copy-writers, but the best in us do you use them, and I want to be one of those who does.
    follow me on ayyelo, Easy WordPress; specializing in setting up themes!

  5. #30
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Before you submit a proposal on the project, all you really need to do is ask a few simple questions of your client:

    "Of course, your content is the most important part of your website.

    1. What type of content are you planning? (Photos, videos, text, etc.)
    2. Who will be responsible to provide your content?
    3. Have you hired a copy writer or will you write your own text?
    4. When do you anticipate that your content will be ready?
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  6. #31
    SitePoint Mentor silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyflower View Post
    Before you submit a proposal on the project, all you really need to do is ask a few simple questions of your client:

    "Of course, your content is the most important part of your website.

    1. What type of content are you planning? (Photos, videos, text, etc.)
    2. Who will be responsible to provide your content?
    3. Have you hired a copy writer or will you write your own text?
    4. When do you anticipate that your content will be ready?
    Thanks I will have to devise a list of things to ask them about their content.
    follow me on ayyelo, Easy WordPress; specializing in setting up themes!

  7. #32
    SitePoint Enthusiast sparkie2260's Avatar
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    Right. It often falls to the designer to try and guide the owner into better content, even though copywriting isn't the expertise of the designer.

    I can tell you this: When you do help an owner improve his website (content, too) and thereby his business, that owner will start looking to you as a guru, and you'll start hearing from his/her friends, too. ;-)

  8. #33
    SitePoint Mentor silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkie2260 View Post
    Right. It often falls to the designer to try and guide the owner into better content, even though copywriting isn't the expertise of the designer.

    I can tell you this: When you do help an owner improve his website (content, too) and thereby his business, that owner will start looking to you as a guru, and you'll start hearing from his/her friends, too. ;-)
    Completely Agreed. I use to work at a company which could not give two damns about the clients content, as they saw this as their responsibility, which is complete hogwash, since clients have limited knowledge. Most of the times we got 2/3 thousand word essays per page, which sounds awful.
    follow me on ayyelo, Easy WordPress; specializing in setting up themes!

  9. #34
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    I think I missed something!
    Presumably they will want it to look professional, and it can be optimized for search engine findability too. If they don't care about this, it's their funeral.
    Last edited by ralph.m; Jan 3, 2011 at 20:12. Reason: removed fake sig

  10. #35
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    Well, yes. But a lot of evil hides in the nondescript word "professional."

    Professional does not automatically mean pretty. Professional does not mean page after page of "pretty nothings," words without meaning or definition.

    Much as the word professional has be reduced to meaninglessness by the web design field. Message to market match trumps raw, generic, pretty. (And sorry, the generic 'Web 2.0,' when coupled with the word professional generates so much nonsensical babble it's laughable. Two words devoid of meaning don't mean something when put together.)



    Related:

    Clients and their corporate waffle copy text

  11. #36
    SitePoint Enthusiast Stephens's Avatar
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    Anything regarding content is purely based on your thoughts and on your idea. Insist your content writer till what you are expecting to say

  12. #37
    SitePoint Guru bronze trophy
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    purely based on your thoughts and on your idea.
    To the extent those ideas don't fit the target market, that is a recipe for failure.

    Writing for the web has become writing in a user-free, competitor-free vacuum.


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