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  1. #126
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    Oh, something else occurred to me I thought I'd point out, as via PM I must helped someone clean up a page where they had tons of bloated markup and tons of classes... for no reason. Lemme give you a quick example of the markup that was involved. The markup was the root of the problem even though he was asking me about CSS.

    He had a table - now, there's nothing wrong with tables for tabular data like an excel spreadsheet, it's what they're for... but I often say the problem with tables had nothing to do with it being a 'hack' but instead had to do with people not understanding how to build one properly or even realizing that there are more tags that can go inside a table than a TR and TD... I'm referring to CAPTION, THEAD, TBODY, TFOOT and TH -- quintet of tags most developers seem blissfully unaware of...

    To paraphrase his table (stripping out his data and turning his 10x40 grid into a measly 3x3):
    Code:
    <table id="someData" class="someData" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="4" border="1">
    	<tr>
    		<td colspan="4" class="title">Table Title</td>
    	</tr><tr>
    		<td class="empty">&nbsp;</td>
    		<td class="columnHeader">Column 1</td>
    		<td class="columnHeader">Column 2</td>
    		<td class="columnHeader">Column 3</td>
    	</tr><tr>
    		<td class="rowHeader">Row 1</td>
    		<td class="data">Data 1-1</td>
    		<td class="data">Data 2-1</td>
    		<td class="data">Data 3-1</td>
    	</tr><tr>
    		<td class="rowHeader">Row 1</td>
    		<td class="data">Data 1-1</td>
    		<td class="data">Data 2-1</td>
    		<td class="data">Data 3-1</td>
    	</tr><tr>
    		<td class="rowHeader">Row 1</td>
    		<td class="data">Data 1-1</td>
    		<td class="data">Data 2-1</td>
    		<td class="data">Data 3-1</td>
    	</tr>
    </table>
    779 bytes

    The class on the table wasn't even used anywhere else... there was no reason to use a ID instead of a class, MOST of the values on the table declaration have no business even being IN the markup, and not ONE of the classes or attributes on his TD are neccessary.

    His resulting CSS was something like this (no joke):
    Code:
    table#someData.someData { background:#CCC; border:1px solid #000; }
    
    table#someData .title { padding:4px 0; text-align:center; background:#FCC; border-left:1px solid #000; border-right:1px solid #000; border-top:1px solid #000; border-bottom:0; }
    
    table#someData .colHeader { font-weight:bold; padding:2px 6px; border:1px solid #000; background:#CFC; }
    
    table#someData .rowHeader { font-weight:bold; padding:2px 6px; border:1px solid #000; background:#CCF; }
    
    table#someData .data { padding:2px 6px; border:1px solid #000; background:#FFF;
    
    table#someData .empty { background:none; border:none; }
    608 bytes

    ...on top of 'table#someData.someData' being wasteful (and a serious whiskey tango foxtrot), there's hordes of redundant values being declared like the padding that could simply be attached to every TD.

    So as I often say, the first step is to fix the HTML. That first colspan TD should be the CAPTION, the next row should be TH inside a THEAD, the .empty can be targeted as a TD, .rowheader should be TH inside TBODY, while the remaining .data TD can simply be TD.

    Code:
    <table class="someData" cellspacing="4">
    	<caption>Table Title</caption>
    	<thead>
    		<tr>
    			<td></td>
    			<th>Column 1</th>
    			<th>Column 2</th>
    			<th>Column 3</th>
    		</tr>
    	</thead>
    	<tbody>
    		<tr>
    			<th>Row 1</th>
    			<td>Data 1-1</td>
    			<td>Data 1-2</td>
    			<td>Data 1-3</td>
    		</tr>
    		<tr>
    			<th>Row 2</th>
    			<td>Data 2-1</td>
    			<td>Data 2-2</td>
    			<td>Data 2-3</td>
    		</tr>
    		<tr>
    			<th>Row 3</th>
    			<td>Data 3-1</td>
    			<td>Data 3-2</td>
    			<td>Data 3-3</td>
    		</tr>
    	</tbody>
    </table>
    530 bytes

    Provides ALL the hooks we need to apply that styling... and the ONLY reason we have to use cellspacing is that FF and IE are BOTH still complete retards about handling the border-spacing CSS attribute.

    The CSS for that is simplified down too.

    Code:
    .someData {
    	background:#CCC;
    	border:1px solid #000;
    }
    
    .someData caption {
    	text-align:center;
    	padding:4px 0;
    	background:#FCC;
    	border:solid #000;
    	border-width:1px 1px 0;
    }
    
    .someData th,
    .someData td {
    	padding:2px 6px;
    	border:1px solid #000;
    }
    
    .someData thead th {
    	background:#CFC;
    }
    
    .someData thead td {
    	background:none;
    	border:none;
    }
    
    .someData tbody th {
    	background:#CCF;
    }
    
    .someData tbody td {
    	background:#FFF;
    }
    469 bytes

    Basically by getting rid of every class except the one on the outermost container and the extra bits we don't need in the CSS like saying what tag the ID or class is on, we not only reduced the markup by 32&#37; (more like 60% on his 15x40 table), it shaves 23k off the CSS. If you format the CSS the same way as his original, it only sheds 30 more bytes! (why bother)

    It illustrates something I was saying earlier -- a firm grasp of the basics of HTML is the first step to writing good CSS. To flog the deceased equine, CSS is only as good as the markup it's applied to... especially if you exploit the advantages of semantic markup and the 'cascading' part of Cascading Style Sheets.

    For reference, I took his page which had little to no formatting and was 90k of markup and 30k of CSS, and dropped it to 20k of each. It was literally an example of "not every ejaculation deserves a name" being represented as "not every TD needs a class"... or should even be a TD for that matter. It's like when you see

    <p class="heading"><b>My Heading</b></p>

    You just want to take them across your knee with a paddle at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by donboe View Post
    Maybe you do read it wrong
    No, I think I read it right given your examples you've completely missed the POINT of CSS and by practicing adding/removing classes in the markup instead of properties in the CSS, you do NOT have separation of presentation from content or modern coding techniques. I'm willing to bet your CTC ratio is in excess of 6:1 after doing that. If you have to change your markup to flip something like a float, you completely wrote your markup wrong / decade PLUS out of date in the first place!

    If you're setting a bunch of things the same, always remember that thanks to specificity and source order you can change it again later targeting just the single element - WITHOUT going into the markup. That's kind of the point of CSS.

  2. #127
    SitePoint Wizard donboe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    No, I think I read it right given your examples you've completely missed the POINT of CSS and by practicing adding/removing classes in the markup instead of properties in the CSS, you do NOT have separation of presentation from content or modern coding techniques. I'm willing to bet your CTC ratio is in excess of 6:1 after doing that. If you have to change your markup to flip something like a float, you completely wrote your markup wrong / decade PLUS out of date in the first place!
    Than maybe I missed the point! By the way it is sometimes adding one of the seven to a class, I never removed one. As long as it works for me, I'm okay. Thank you for the very long story and advise anyway

  3. #128
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    Off Topic:

    You know, every time I use the word "specificity" I feel like there should be a Schoolhouse Rock ditty explaining it...

  4. #129
    I Use MODx kenquad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    remove Internet Explorer image toolbar
    What is that and how do you remove it? (I have not used IE except for testing in six years.)

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenquad View Post
    What is that and how do you remove it? (I have not used IE except for testing in six years.)
    Actually, that one caught my attention last night and I forgot about it...

    See, you can't turn that on or off FROM the CSS. That's done in the markup. either globally using:

    <meta http-equiv="imagetoolbar" content="no" />

    or per image thus:

    <img src="test.png" galleryimg="no" />

    So saying that's part of a CSS reset doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    The so called "IE image toolbar" is the bit that pops up over a image when you hover over it for a bit including the options to save, resize or whatever.

    I've never understood the obsession with disabling it as for CONTENT images, aka images that BELONG in the markup, it's a user aid that's kinda handy. Basically from a semantics standpoint if it qualifies to be in a IMG tag in the first place, there's no reason to disable it.

    ... and it doesn't show up for background-image. In the old days where people built their rounded corners with IMG tags inside tables or wasted their time using images as dividers in the markup, sure it made sense to add those trips... But with modern markup and separation of presentation from content, setting that up just leaves you asking...

    WHY?!?

    But then, a lot of people are still putting non-content images in their markup like it was 1997.

  6. #131
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    One CSS file for global styles, header, footer, etc. then one for each page type. It means I'm pulling 2 files instead of one but the files themselves are dramatically smaller.

  7. #132
    SitePoint Mentor silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by donboe View Post
    I find myself always adjusting, because the client suddenly want another section added to the page.
    Have you tried to get the site designed and approved prior to development. Adjusting a design is easy, but I can't imagine how it's like when you have to design on the fly whilst the client asks for changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60
    if you're going to have classes for "clear"
    I have classes for clear, what else would you use? If I want to clear something then I normally create a class like this:

    Code:
    .clear {line-height:0px; 
              font-size:0px;
              height:0px;
              clear:both;}
    HR is terrible for clearing. It should be removed from use completely. So creating a clear class is the only way I know how to clear something properly.
    follow me on ayyelo, Easy WordPress; specializing in setting up themes!

  8. #133
    Resident curmudgeon bronze trophy gary.turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    So creating a clear class is the only way I know how to clear something properly.
    There are several ways to clear or encapsulate floats. None are panaceae, including the clear property; each having gotchas. See Enclosing Float Elements.

    cheers,

    gary
    Anyone can build a usable website. It takes a graphic
    designer to make it slow, confusing, and painful to use.

    Simple minded html & css demos and tutorials

  9. #134
    SitePoint Wizard donboe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    Have you tried to get the site designed and approved prior to development. Adjusting a design is easy, but I can't imagine how it's like when you have to design on the fly whilst the client asks for changes.
    In most cases the designis are approved, but you probably know how things go. You have those situations where you have to deal with such things. I'm not talking about major adjustments but it are adjustments.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by donboe View Post
    In most cases the designis are approved, but you probably know how things go. You have those situations where you have to deal with such things. I'm not talking about major adjustments but it are adjustments.
    Clients always change their mind. I know how it works. It depends how you convey the message to them. I always found that when this did happen it was the sale-person too eager to bag the client and rush their decision. It's always good to let the clients wait 3 - 4 days prior to approving the design. Even so, they still often change their mind.
    follow me on ayyelo, Easy WordPress; specializing in setting up themes!

  11. #136
    I Use MODx kenquad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    The so called "IE image toolbar" is the bit that pops up over a image when you hover over it for a bit including the options to save, resize or whatever.
    Oh, I remember that. It doesn't bother me.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    I have classes for clear, what else would you use? If I want to clear something then I normally create a class like this:

    Code:
    .clear {line-height:0px; 
              font-size:0px;
              height:0px;
              clear:both;}
    Have wrapping elements (like faux-columns) that have overflow:hidden on them and a haslayout trigger, and they'll WRAP the floats meaning you don't have to clear... put the clear:both on an element AFTER the floats, instead of wasting time adding a class in the markup. You can even make a wrapping element float:left; width:100&#37;; and it will contain it's floats that way. Great example would be columns - if you need faux-columns you've got a element to wrap them with, if you don't, you can put clear:both on #footer and be done with it.

    Making a class for it and putting it in the markup? That's old school presentational style thinking since you should have MORE than enough elements to handle that already.

    Though it could be worse, could be that fat bloated clearfix asshattery.

  13. #138
    billycundiff{float:left;} silver trophybronze trophy RyanReese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Though it could be worse, could be that fat bloated clearfix asshattery.
    To be fair, the clearfix is indeed a tad bit bloated, but in its' defense, in the past, it was the best due to stableness and non buggy behavior.

    Now it could be shortened since old Mozilla etc are dead
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  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanReese View Post
    To be fair, the clearfix is indeed a tad bit bloated, but in its' defense, in the past, it was the best due to stableness and non buggy behavior.
    Yeah, but from about 2004 onward we've had no reason to need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanReese View Post
    Now it could be shortened since old Mozilla etc are dead
    Or just don't use it -- I've never needed it. Before I found out about the overflow:hidden/haslayout trick, I just used the 100&#37; width float:left trick which worked much the same... which I still use from time to time when haslayout actually makes things worse in IE7. (which it does from time to time like with LI) or when instead I need to position something outside the container.

  15. #140
    billycundiff{float:left;} silver trophybronze trophy RyanReese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Yeah, but from about 2004 onward we've had no reason to need it.


    Or just don't use it -- I've never needed it. Before I found out about the overflow:hidden/haslayout trick, I just used the 100% width float:left trick which worked much the same... which I still use from time to time when haslayout actually makes things worse in IE7. (which it does from time to time like with LI)
    I almost always use overflow in my code. However there are rare cases I'll pull out my own version of the clearfix to do the job. Overflow is extremely nice and versatile, but it's not usable everywhere.

    I prefer not to use the 100% wide float to solve it, just because in my head I don't like using a float to "clear"
    Always looking for web design/development work.
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  16. #141
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenquad
    I was surprised to find the site of my favorite CMS, MODx, in their list of sites . Wonder why the devs chose 960.gs? Maybe I'll ask them....
    Anyone wondering why a developer who DOES know CSS would consider using a grid, this is Jeff Croft's answer: http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2007/aug/0...on-separation/

    As I've said before, 99% of the time the reason I have classes with names like .center or .bold is because, for no reason, I'm told "could you make this thing here green and bold, and center this sentence? I think it looks nicer."

    Seriously, you can't name after content with design like that. Same goes for clear: I too have used clear classes. Suddenly someone wants something on the side, meaning the generic (no class on it) h2 coming after it needs to clear it. overflow: hidden on the float container does not stop the h2 from riding up (the h2 is also inside that container). Only having the h2 clear that float will do it.

    Adding "clear: both" or even clear:left/right on all h2's is not doable: you have plenty of h2's sitting happily next to floated images, charts, whatever.

    Easiest solution? Make that h2 <h2 class="clear">. Is there a better one? Only if there's some content reason why the client wanted the thingie above to sit to the right or left. Usually, there isn't.
    You know comments like the ones here? That is a reality. Mine aren't so bad, but I do have plenty of "I think this part here would look better centered, but not this other part there."

    However, I haven't needed .lfloat or .inline type classes: there, usually that's a much larger thing than centering text. The boxes usually have a hook already, and so I just use those classes or id's.
    .clear is for when I have generic, unnamed elements who suddenly need to do do something specific. Making up some retarded classname to do with the h2 is silly: then for the 40 elements who got a retarded class name JUST so they could clear an unexpected float above them, I'd have
    .something, .something-else, .strangeheader, .blah-blah, .blah... {
    clear: both;
    }
    I'll tolerate that with some elements for some reasons (display: none in print sheets for example), but not clears, centers or bolds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary
    Well, juffrouw poes, I can't say how most places do it, but your place is not doing it in a good manner. You're violating the separation principle. The template is the structure (html), and it belongs to you. The mid-tier guy should export the variable arrays to the template. He can call them what he wants; he just needs to tell you what's what so you can use them as you want. Likewise, you send him forms with name/value pairs, and he can use them in any way he wants.
    Yeah, you've said that before. If I change jobs, I might start using Template::Toolkit, but for now, Smarty is firmly in his domain.

    Also, juffrouws aren't married. They're misses. The term is a bit old-fashioned but is still used to refer to elementary schoolteachers, as they are usually young unmarried women. I would be "mevrouw poes" as I am married (and am over the "do not trust" age).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary
    However do you keep track of all those references? Thanks for the citation.
    Bookmarks, both in my unreliable browser and on a web page I have (the page I use when using other browsers lawlz).

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusty
    I wasn't aware ctrl-F and/or F3 qualified as arduous...
    Probably meant using the GUI to search instead of keys. If I use the GUI to search, it's arduous. Search>Find>type in search/choose direction/choose case/click Search button.
    Most text editors have shortcuts, but vim's is just /thepattern (or backwards: ?thepattern or case insensitive: /thepattern/c. Easy, don't have to reach out to the Fcommand keys or use ctrl+key either. : )

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusty
    For me arduous would be that 99% of the time I start typing code in VIM, instead of it allowing me to just type code (what a concept) it will start running it's internal commands instead. That extra step of switching in and out of edit makes it near useless for hardcore editing.
    Heaven forbid keyboard commands are allowed in a text editor lawlz. Switching an extra step? 99% of the time, I'm pulling up files and other admin stuff first (though you can also do that in the command to start vim itself too).
    Plus you skip the step where you start up your graphical text editor. You're already in the terminal, you just type vi filename and you're there. Much less work.

    Off Topic:

    I do wish it would start me out in insert mode in mutt though, since I'm always just typing when I'm replying to email. I'm sure there's a setting I could put to do that anyway. There's a setting or a command for anything.

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    As I've said before, 99% of the time the reason I have classes with names like .center or .bold is because, for no reason, I'm told "could you make this thing here green and bold, and center this sentence? I think it looks nicer."
    For "NO" reason?!? Then what the *** business do they have changing it? Just WANT it to look like a fly by night scam or something? (Sorry, but from what you described, all I could picture is one of those types of sites)

    I mean, is it a STANDOUT, could a semantic tag like EM or STRONG make more sense?

    I would immediately be asking "what about this MAKES it that way" -- if they can't answer, I'd tell them where to shove it... though that could be a hefty part of my total disgust with the entire industry of late.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Easiest solution? Make that h2 <h2 class="clear">. Is there a better one? Only if there's some content reason why the client wanted the thingie above to sit to the right or left. Usually, there isn't.
    ... and is there a perfectly good block level container around it? Is there any unique identifier already on it? If you have to put a presentational class on it or add one, I'd suspect something was wrong with the markup in the first place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Heaven forbid keyboard commands are allowed in a text editor lawlz. Switching an extra step? 99% of the time, I'm pulling up files and other admin stuff first (though you can also do that in the command to start vim itself too).
    Plus you skip the step where you start up your graphical text editor. You're already in the terminal, you just type vi filename and you're there. Much less work.
    Yeah, but if I wanted to spend all my time dicking around on the command line, I'd still be using Xenix on my Trash-80 model 12.

  18. #143
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    For "NO" reason?!? Then what the *** business do they have changing it? Just WANT it to look like a fly by night scam or something? (Sorry, but from what you described, all I could picture is one of those types of sites)
    Yup. I don't work for a web agency. I work for a guy who still isn't sure what exactly Twitter is.

    I mean, is it a STANDOUT, could a semantic tag like EM or STRONG make more sense?
    Nope. If it were, I'd be using those tags (and sometimes I can convince myself that a strong tag could fit in a situation).

    I would immediately be asking "what about this MAKES it that way" -- if they can't answer, I'd tell them where to shove it... though that could be a hefty part of my total disgust with the entire industry of late.
    Hahaha, you've always been able to tell your clients to shove it if necessary. But I kinda like being employed, even if it's not the best place in the world to work (it's certainly not the worst).

    ... and is there a perfectly good block level container around it?
    Separately? No. If I have a floated div or floated Whatsit and there's an h2 following it, I don't wrap the h2 and its following content in a div.
    Is there any unique identifier already on it?
    If there was, I'd use it: like I do for all my major boxes.

    No major box or any element with any pre-existing name has to have a clear class, because I can already target it in the CSS where all the other styles for that element are.
    If you have to put a presentational class on it or add one, I'd suspect something was wrong with the markup in the first place!
    Possibly, but to tell the truth, if I weren't writing for IE6 there would be fewer classes and ids on things in general. In areas of just plain main content, the content container itself has a name (usually an id), and everything else inside is styled from that (using element type and document flow usually works fine). Then someone wants to add a floated image (either it's an image in the HTML or it's a floated empty div with the image as a background, but either way it's floated so the text after it can wrap around) and now you have to say "the next header has to clear it" in a way IE6 understands (otherwise you could use more complicated CSS like :nth-of-type or something). Why would any random, ordinary h2 have a class? And if it did, and you're adding a class on every h2 or h3 who comes along in plain content, "I'd suspect something was wrong with the markup in the first place!" You would too.

    Code of mine that does have a lot of id's and classes, is code that someone's kept changing the styles a lot and making a lot of exceptions to general rules... OR it was to style special things also in the presence of IE6.

    Another reason I may add lots of id's or classes to something might also be if I'm giving markup over to someone and they can see from the names what each chunk is. Doesn't hurt anything to do so, and I can get away with fewer comments.

    Yeah, but if I wanted to spend all my time dicking around on the command line
    GUI's just a slower, prettier version of the command line. : ) I tend to waste my time dicking around with the GUI because it's pretty.
    I CAN HAZ KITTENS ON MAH BACKGROUNDS YAY!!!

    Actually my husband has a picture of Audrey Hepburn as a background on his terminal so I guess I could do that too.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    and they'll WRAP the floats meaning you don't have to clear... put the clear:both on an element AFTER the floats, instead of wasting time adding a class in the markup.

    Though it could be worse, could be that fat bloated clearfix asshattery.
    Thanks I know about overflow:hidden and clear:both, I think overflow-hidden did something funny in Chrome, if I remember correctly, we ended up having to hide the x and y axis because it forced us to scroll, similarly with Opera.

    I guess not more .clear classes for me
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    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Nah, that should be overflow: auto... that or they must be disabled scrollbars which tell the user that there is content inside which is larger than the box.

    Most of the time, using overflow:hidden for containing floats is on boxes without dimensions, or with widths but the content inside isn't smaller than that width. In those cases there should be no scrollbars in any browser.

    That's why you have situations where you can't use overflow to contain floated children: sometimes you have set dimensions and you can't afford to hide the overflow (and you don't want scrollbars either so auto is also out of the question). So then it's either clearfix, Float Absolutely Everything or Display:table as possible solutions. Each one has its pros and cons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stomme poes
    You know comments like the ones here
    lol... One guy was like that to me. He even started to loose his temper asking for all these things he did not pay for. I then started to charge him per hour, and he quickly said okay. Eventually the client called him and said how thankful he was with the work I did.
    Quote Originally Posted by stomme poes
    Also, juffrouws aren't married. They're misses. The term is a bit old-fashioned but is still used to refer to elementary schoolteachers, as they are usually young unmarried women. I would be "mevrouw poes" as I am married (and am over the "do not trust" age).
    I think I missed something
    Quote Originally Posted by stomme poes
    As I've said before, 99&#37; of the time the reason I have classes with names like .center or .bold is because, for no reason, I'm told "could you make this thing here green and bold, and center this sentence? I think it looks nicer."
    I kind of have to agree here, clients do this, it's true. Sometimes you don't have time to overly make things proper and result in using classnames like .centre.
    Yup. I don't work for a web agency. I work for a guy who still isn't sure what exactly Twitter is.
    But I kinda like being employed, even if it's not the best place in the world to work (it's certainly not the worst).
    Nevermind, most bosses are like this. Mine was worse, she expected me to work afterhours for no pay in learning things she wanted me to learn, most of which I had no intension of learning. Talk about power trips.
    That's why you have situations where you can't use overflow to contain floated children: sometimes you have set dimensions and you can't afford to hide the overflow (and you don't want scrollbars either so auto is also out of the question).
    I have not coded for a while, sounds wierd really, but it's true. I remember the overflow:hidden had problems with IE6 and I had to use .clear class to fix it (my version of the clearFix). I don't know if you guys and cats still code for IE6 but we did at the time.

    Anyone wondering why a developer who DOES know CSS would consider using a grid, this is Jeff Croft's answer: http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2007/aug/0...on-separation/
    I am still not convinced, just seems like too much work learning something I can do without. I saw 960, but I have not checked out blueprint. I will take a look on it and give my verdict, got a feeling though it's not going to be good.
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    It makes you think though about grid systems if somebody posts a review like that. I am sure producing sites in these grid systems with the excessive code and so forth does not do justing to your SEO factors.
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  23. #148
    Resident curmudgeon bronze trophy gary.turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Yeah, you've said that before. [about Smarty ownership] If I change jobs, I might start using Template::Toolkit, but for now, Smarty is firmly in his domain.
    And that is a major source of your problems, right? Were I you, I'd be button-holing the boss for an ownership change. Having the template written by the front-end gal would reduce the workload on both yourself and the mid-tier guy.

    Also, juffrouws aren't married. They're misses. The term is a bit old-fashioned but is still used to refer to elementary schoolteachers, as they are usually young unmarried women. I would be "mevrouw poes" as I am married (and am over the "do not trust" age).
    Ah, but here in the South, we would never presume to address a woman as old or married unless in a formal context, or due to the expressed preference of the lady. My great aunt Hallie, a spinster, would have bristled at being addressed as Mrs Martin, where a married lady would smile at the compliment "Miss" implies, and offer a gentle correction. But, to avoid any confusion, we also came up with the term Miz to apply to all women except little girls who kept the title, Miss. The women's movement decided to adopt the term for themselves, but spelled it Ms. Why they wanted to call themselves manuscript, I have no idea. (A little joke a very little joke. )

    Probably meant using the GUI to search instead of keys. If I use the GUI to search, it's arduous. Search>Find>type in search/choose direction/choose case/click Search button.
    Most text editors have shortcuts, but vim's is just /thepattern (or backwards: ?thepattern or case insensitive: /thepattern/c. Easy, don't have to reach out to the Fcommand keys or use ctrl+key either. : )

    Heaven forbid keyboard commands are allowed in a text editor lawlz. Switching an extra step? 99% of the time, I'm pulling up files and other admin stuff first (though you can also do that in the command to start vim itself too).
    Plus you skip the step where you start up your graphical text editor. You're already in the terminal, you just type vi filename and you're there. Much less work.
    I am stuck trying to be productive in Win7. Is it possible to be productive where the shell language is so weak, and everything is so GUI oriented that keyboard commands/shortcuts are limited? Thank the gods for Emacs, and Vi. (I can appreciate the command and insert modes for the convenience of one key commands, even if I prefer Emacs's paradigm.)

    Off Topic:

    Off Topic:

    I do wish it would start me out in insert mode in mutt though, since I'm always just typing when I'm replying to email. I'm sure there's a setting I could put to do that anyway. There's a setting or a command for anything.
    As part of Mutt's configuration for the default editor? Maybe an argument in the call to vi?


    cheers,

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  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary.turner View Post
    I am stuck trying to be productive in Win7. Is it possible to be productive where the shell language is so weak
    Yeah, it's called don't use the shell... It's funny, I spent most of the 80's working from the command line, including in SH (the progenitor to ASH and BASH) you'd think I'd be more comfortable with it -- but really I don't understand how anyone can still work that way.

    But then, I find *nix file managers to be **** useless (as in less useful than the file manager built into windows 3.1), don't even get me started about the file manager behavior in OSX (with that retarded 'spatial navigation' nonsense)... it's only under Windows I can manage files in a fast/reasonable manner -- assuming I give it a quick boot in the patoot in regards to it's default settings.

    For windows 7, that means go into tools > folder options, turn on "automatically expand to current location" so you have a useful file tree, turn off the bekaptah "hide file extensions" nonsense (I do wish you could make it show extensions as a column replacing the idiotic "file type" trash), show hidden files and folders...

    Gives you this wonderful tool called a 'directory tree' making management of large projects piss simple, certainly simpler than the command line where a DECENT directory listing with useful information doesn't even fit on the screen, doesn't provide you any useful scrolling tools, etc, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by gary.turner View Post
    and everything is so GUI oriented that keyboard commands/shortcuts are limited?
    LIMITED? How so? Every menu command has a simple keyboard shortcut that actually makes sense. Here's a tip, turn off the 'hide underlines until I hit alt" thing.

    The GUI is able to make me very productive... I make a shortcut to my current project on the desktop -- OR I put the folder for it on the desktop, open it... since I have the tree I can get around it very quickly... I can right click a folder to hit 'browse in PSP' on the images folder... I can shift-click to select multiple files then right click to say "open in crimson editor" popping them all open not just en-masse in their own windows (handy for multi display) it even remembers their last positions, so I get HTML or PHP on the left half CSS on the right half of my left display... I have this wonderful tool called a TASKBAR that shows me all the open documents (since I run it in portrait mode on the right display with 'grouping' turned off) letting me see at a glance without even hitting anything every document I have open. On the right display I have on the desktop copies of my rough and simple baseline templates, my CSS reset, csshover3.htc, a reminders.txt file for the CSS hacks/tricks I can never remember in my head, a simple .js for cookie handling, and the offline copy of the WDG HTML4 reference.

    For me the *nix environment as a development platform is where the limits are. Resizing a terminal window half the applications don't even support properly (especially if you make it smaller), you end up having to run multiple terminal sessions (meaning multiple times of navigating to a directory) just to show two separate files side-by-side (like say HTML and CSS?), the GUI tabbed editors not letting you run multiple instances from either the command line or the navigation so you're stuck with everything in one tabbar (gEdit I'm looking at you)... Assuming you can even GET multiple displays to function right without spending two or three DAYS dicking around in xorg.conf since XRandR doesn't work worth **** even on the supported hardware and isn't even compatible with the nVidia reference drivers... and if you want the outermost displays on opposite sides controlled by the same video card, with the middle ones controlled by another you're SOL -- much less the total lack of the mere concept of a primary display (though that effects gaming more than work, it's still a PITA with blender or other openGL graphics creation software)

    Seriously, I don't know how the devil people use it for development work. It's like blindfolding yourself, tying both hands behind your back, and taking a trip in the wayback machine to 1985.

    <Marty>1985!?!</Marty> -- Oops, wrong time machine.

    But everyone develops different habits. I gave up on *nix for everything except servers sometime around 1992 -- for a good reason, and there's been NOTHING to make me even consider going back to it full time. I don't understand how people can use pathetic editors like vi, put up with the constant screwing around on the command line with vague and obscure parameters needed for the simplest of tasks, the dearth of quality software (Most of it, gimp for example, are outperformed by decade and a half old software), or the hardware support that can drive you up the wall when even the allegedly supported hardware only works at half capacity. (wireless and audio, I'm looking at you).

    Hell, they can't even manage to map the behavior of a AT keyboard properly. (see what happens with num-lock off when you shift-arrow on the keypad, you get the numbers instead of select)... but that could just be I was programming on a XT keyboard for at least six years before I ever got a AT layout keyboard, and as such never once used the standalone arrow keys.

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    since most of the other tools like macro's and so forth you end up wasting so much time setting them up and screwing around with them you never actually write anything... <snip/> besides by the time I remember what ones I have set up, I can just type the damned thing out in less time. I can't agree more with deathshadow60
    Last edited by Mittineague; Sep 21, 2010 at 00:56. Reason: Please wait until you get your signature for your links.


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