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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenquad View Post
    Could somebody point me to a good introduction so that I can follow this discussion a little better?
    If you can code a website your site using CSS and HTML you're better off not knowing. But just to sum things up for you, go to http://960.gs/ and take a look at it.

    It's basically like a template for people who do not know how to code as well, in designing and developing websites. Think of it as a designers tool to web development. Hope this is clear.

  2. #102
    I Use MODx kenquad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    Igo to http://960.gs/ and take a look at it.
    I was surprised to find the site of my favorite CMS, MODx, in their list of sites . Wonder why the devs chose 960.gs? Maybe I'll ask them....

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenquad View Post
    I was surprised to find the site of my favorite CMS, MODx, in their list of sites . Wonder why the devs chose 960.gs? Maybe I'll ask them....
    Oh, don't know why it's there. Sometimes these companies try to big each other up by using each other's services. I went to the DrupalCon and they were talking about 960 grid theming like it's a good thing. Having said that when asked if the speakers use it they all said "No", so it might have just been an awareness thing. But I know some there did use it.

  4. #104
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy PicnicTutorials's Avatar
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    I stoped reading at page two (maybe you worked it out I don't know). You guys (and many others) are like my dad. Why do you have to tell people what to do. Answer their question, suggest the best method, and leave it at that. If someone else (not you) wants to do something in a different way than yourself why do you care? I personally could care less what others do with their lives and the things in them. Everyone feels comfortable doing things differently. What works for one does not work for the other and visa-versa. Bossy individuals have always bugged the **** out of me.

  5. #105
    I Use MODx kenquad's Avatar
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    @EricWatson

    Fortunately the furor died down at the end of page 3

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricWatson View Post
    I stoped reading at page two (maybe you worked it out I don't know). You guys (and many others) are like my dad. Why do you have to tell people what to do. Answer their question, suggest the best method, and leave it at that. If someone else (not you) wants to do something in a different way than yourself why do you care? I personally could care less what others do with their lives and the things in them. Everyone feels comfortable doing things differently. What works for one does not work for the other and visa-versa. Bossy individuals have always bugged the **** out of me.
    It's fun this way. People bouncing ideas and their methodologies let you see things from another perspective. I think the question was answered somewhere in the middle of it. We might have gone overboard, but if the OP person wants to ask something more, he can. That's the fun of this forum!

  7. #107
    Hibernator YuriKolovsky's Avatar
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    Off Topic:


    @Eric Watson
    stackoverflow is for Q/A
    This is a forum where people discuss their hearts out
    I know it makes no sense to try and change someones views, but having people attempt it fruitlessly is better than a dead topic.

  8. #108
    Resident curmudgeon bronze trophy gary.turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Actually, no... because at least where I work, we often get problems when my static HTML is converted over to some template (usually Smarty). In those cases, I diff the two files in vim to find where the screwup was. I'll need the names to be the same for testing like that.

    However, I'm sure that's not how most places are set up, so I can't speak for anyone else.
    Well, juffrouw poes, I can't say how most places do it, but your place is not doing it in a good manner. You're violating the separation principle. The template is the structure (html), and it belongs to you. The mid-tier guy should export the variable arrays to the template. He can call them what he wants; he just needs to tell you what's what so you can use them as you want. Likewise, you send him forms with name/value pairs, and he can use them in any way he wants.

    With the separation, you can alter the html via Smarty without his having to do a thing to accommodate, and he can alter his logic without your having to change anything. Only the API need remain unchanged.

    It just happens that how it works here at my job, WE humans also end up looking at the production code : )
    Amen, Sister. When source gets squeezed, the original fluffy code tends to get lost, or at least is not available to the guy who has to maintain it.

    I'll actually use "content" and "button" and "wrapper" for my names, because there's nothing else to them (no other names). I haven't had quotes in my pages but if I did, I'd use the q element (Gary Turner has a nice example of how to actually get those elements to work in HTML/CSS also in IE on his page here <--scroll down to "Second Thoughts"... this is what I've used the one or two times I've had quote elements).
    However do you keep track of all those references? Thanks for the citation.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    i guess i look to the code as not that important to be easily read by world's eyes. i have been used to having this separation in my work: development code, deployment code. maybe it's too much for some, used to have only one final unique code: source code = production code.
    The thing is, in web development, the development code is the production code. HTML is a declarative structure language, css is a declarative presentation language, and ecmascript (javascript) is interpreted, not compiled, so it too is the production source. Javascript and css are both cached, so have only a trivial effect on bandwidth.

    I read somewhere that we should act as if the person who maintains the site is a violent psychopath who knows where you live. Seems like a good idea to me.

    cheers,

    gary
    Anyone can build a usable website. It takes a graphic
    designer to make it slow, confusing, and painful to use.

    Simple minded html & css demos and tutorials

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by supermighty View Post
    I also use VIM for editing so searching isn't the arduous task that other editors make.
    I wasn't aware ctrl-F and/or F3 qualified as arduous... For me arduous would be that 99&#37; of the time I start typing code in VIM, instead of it allowing me to just type code (what a concept) it will start running it's internal commands instead. That extra step of switching in and out of edit makes it near useless for hardcore editing.

    Much less the cryptic command nonsense - you can tell it was made by C programmers with the needlessly obscure commands. I wanted needlessly obscure, I'd still be using wordstar.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    Grid systems like 960 and YUI
    Utter and complete trash that defeat the point of using CSS in the first place. It's pure idiocy, nothing more.

    Off Topic:


    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    i remember programming the Z80 in basic, when things were much simpler:

    LET i = 2
    WHICH Z80 based machine were you using? None of the CP/M based ones like the Kaypro had basic dialects that used let... It would be a small list -- either the Trash 80 with the original 4k level 1 basic, or one of the Sinclairs.

    Wait, did you mean ZX-80 and/or ZX-81?

    The LET statement just got me thinking is all... especially since the Z80 is just a processor used in a dozen different machines and not all Basic dialects were created equal. That's a bit like saying "I remember basic on the 6502" -- which basic? Atari, Apple or Commodore?

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Utter and complete trash that defeat the point of using CSS in the first place. It's pure idiocy, nothing more.
    hehehehe :P ..... I don't think you will find much opposition on that front. I never understood it either. What would you think it's Code-to-Content ratio be one of these grids then?
    follow me on ayyelo, Easy WordPress; specializing in setting up themes!

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    hehehehe :P ..... I don't think you will find much opposition on that front. I never understood it either. What would you think it's Code-to-Content ratio be one of these grids then?
    Well, most grid systems pretty much by definition use presentational classnames -- which is how you get nonsense like:

    <h1 class="grid_4 push_4">

    Little tip, if you "have" to put a class on your H1, you've already screwed up.

    Pretty much EVERYTHING gets a class, and not one single class says what things ARE, only how they are going to appear. So, basically the idea of grid-type systems is to hell with semantic markup and separation of presentation from content.

    In other words, why bother using CSS in the first place -- one might as well go back to using tables with HTML 3.2 at that point.

    I think that's really where the appeal is though -- the people who CANNOT get into their head that HTML 3.2 was a BAD thing, and that presentation has no business being in the markup. When it came time for clients demanding 'modern' support for HTML 4 just slapped a HTML 4 tranny doctype on their 3.2 and never embraced the actual POINT of 4 -- or more specifically STRICT.

    Which of course seems to be the basis for the train wreck of nonsense known as HTML 5... Instead of having people who know what they are doing making the determinations like we had with STRICT, we've got the jokers who couldn't code their way out of a piss soaked paper bag and are still writing HTML 3.2 and calling it HTML 4 tranny in charge.

    HTML Tranny -- It's a trap.

  13. #113
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    Hehe,
    he said "tranny"
    Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

  14. #114
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    I make use of comments in my stylesheets, and block off the styles into sections.

    First is "universal styles", which I apply by default to every website I make. These are things like, remove Internet Explorer image toolbar, set body background colour to white, set margins and paddings to 0px.

    Next, I have "structural styles", which deal with heights and widths and floats and clears of the big elements on the pages.

    Next, "textual styles", which is all about text, font-sizes and colours. I begin this section with default rules for h1, h2, p, ol, ul, etc. then get to classes and specific styles for specific ID's.

    Next, "navigational styles", which are for the menus and link strips.

    Finally, "formal styles", for display of webforms. Fieldsets, labels, inputs, textareas, etc.

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Wait, did you mean ZX-80 and/or ZX-81?
    ZX80.

    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    The LET statement just got me thinking is all... especially since the Z80 is just a processor used in a dozen different machines and not all Basic dialects were created equal. That's a bit like saying "I remember basic on the 6502" -- which basic? Atari, Apple or Commodore?
    the machine was a ZX Spectrum clone with a Sinclair ROM so Sinclair Basic.

    the "storage unit" was a "top of the line" cassete player. why was the player so good? hehehe, because its reading/writting head could be manually positioned using a flat head screwdriver ! it even had a hole above the cassete case for that!

    and i still remember i could tell by the "sound of music" if the programs stored on tape was gonna load or not... or save or not... brrr!

  16. #116
    SitePoint Guru Chroniclemaster1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chroniclemaster1 View Post
    My reset statements come first with my general sitewide styling items (what's a paragraph look like, what are my basic typography conventions like line-height, etc.). Then I write my layout, mostly CSS-P to arrange my XHTML element on the page as I want them positioned.

    Then I use a second stylesheet to write the colors, borders, etc. Mostly these are long series of selectors for a declaration or two, very short compared to the structural code. However, this let's me easily rework the sitewide appearance at any point in the future whether it's tweaking or changing colors wholesale or adjusting the border widths. Coloration has a section, as do borders, background images, typography, etc. I follow this with my OO-CSS components which are a series of style rules grouped under a comment that names each component.
    Weird, the edit doesn't seem to be working for me tonight. I misspoke myself here. The OO-CSS components come not after everything but after the CSS-P stylesheet. Otherwise you can't modify any of the defaults.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chroniclemaster1 View Post
    Weird, the edit doesn't seem to be working for me tonight.
    You can't edit posts anymore 30 minutes after you've posted them -- it's to prevent spammers from first creating a normal message and then coming back several days later and change it to spam.
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  18. #118
    SitePoint Wizard donboe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenquad View Post
    @donboe

    That is a very interesting idea, but don't you end up adding and removing classes quite a bit as the layout progresses?
    No I don't That's why I use them. Like I said. I found my self many times In a situation that I needed to declare a new class. Nearly the same as I had somewhere else already but the float or the clear was missing. This way I can use the existing class and just add one of my pe-devined classes

  19. #119
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    Separaring them into folders and files, and then combining it in the final css works wonders

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by donboe View Post
    After that I aways declare some general classes: floats, dispays and clears, in every possible combination (this helps me to keep the style sheet organized), because before I always found my self creating a new class when I needed something floated or cleared, but this way I just add an already existing class to an already existing element. After that that indeed from header to footer.
    Now, I might be reading what you said wrong, but if I'm reading this right.... uhg. Problem with this approach is you're defeating one of the points of using CSS in the first place, getting presentation the devil out of the markup.

    I mean, if you're going to have classes for "clear" or "floatLeft" or "bigFont" -- at that point why bother using CSS as you've gone back to doing nothing more than aliasing <CENTER>, ALIGN="LEFT" and <FONT size="3">... If that's what you mean, it's the same as the people using javascript to emulate TARGET because target is deprecated in STRICT - COMPLETELY FORGETTING WHY it's deprecated in the first place! You might as well go back to using HTML 3.2 and pretend CSS doesn't even exist. (Same thing I say about most 'frameworks' like YUI or Blueprint)

    At that point the net improvement to the code? ZERO. COMPLETELY missing one of the entire improvements CSS makes possible.

    Used to be a joker around here who did that using nothing but one and two letter classes -- absolute TRAIN WRECK when his code looked like:

    <div class="l c fb j hw b">

    especially since those were all presentational in nature -- COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT of CSS.

    "content", "mainMenu", "footer", "article", "sideBar" - those are good class or ID names. They say what the element IS, not how it's going to appear. Appearance has NO business being in the markup unless it's basically shoved down your throat by a design element.... in which case change the design

    But I'm a real stickler for separation of presentation from content -- the only concession being use of semantically neutral tags as wrappers or sandbags to make up for all the stuff CSS3 is supposed to fix. (and might be real world deployable in about a decade)

    I may have misunderstood your meaning on that -- but it really sounds like the code I used to spend a lot of time cleaning up for others and/or modernizing.

  21. #121
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    My experience is mainly on large sites so my view is slighly skewed. Ultimately it doesn't matter after the user has loaded the frist page as it's all cached (you have set all the cache headers havn't you?).

    I will always keep to a single stylesheet including avoiding the use of @import. I do this because of the resource load patterns of browsers; there are plenty of tools out there that show page load profiling. The page won't look right until all the css is loaded and browsers only want to load a few elements at a time so the "waiting to connect" time starts to play a role in the time between making the request and evey single bit of css being loaded. YSlow explains this pretty well but most of the tips will be overkill for sites with under a million visitors a month (like a CDN).

    My only exception to the rule is that sometimes you need a really lean home page if that is where all your traffic starts. In this case I would consider a separate stylesheet for the home page.

    Minifying css/js (removing comments and excessive whitespace, I don't let anything touch the code) for me really isn't about the bandwith costs you save because it really is pretty insignificant, nor is it about load speed for normal broadband users. It does become significant for those users who may be accessing the site via a 3G connection (especially in conjected areas); on a mobile for instance. If you don't have any mobile users you don't HAVE to minify. Minifying isn't hard at all if you have a deployment process; admittedly I probably go a lot further than most because of the sites I work on. I already have to run unit tests, generate the documentation from the code and make sure all the permissions are set correctly so including the minifiation to a separate file is no problem at all, you never need to work on or maintain the minified code because it's rebuilt from the readable copy on every deployment. Definately overkill for static sites or small sites but on larger or more complicated sites you'll probably have a build/deployment process anyway so hook into that.

    As for the structure of my css files I tend to group by page area like:
    reset
    global
    header
    nav
    generalcontent
    forms
    footer
    page specific bits last because they must override styles above

    <rant>Complete segregation of data and presentation is vital, this includes not naming your classes 'bigyellow' or the like. The markup should describe the data and let the css decide how to present it. How else can you sensibly change the style without having to change the html?</rant>

  22. #122
    SitePoint Wizard donboe's Avatar
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    Maybe you do read it wrong What I say that, no matter how well planned the site, I find myself always adjusting, because the client suddenly want another section added to the page. So what I do after my reset is having a few general classes, which I can use in case there is a class similar to the new class I need but the clear or float is missing and I can't add the float or clear to the existing class because that will mess up the layout so instead I have something like:
    Code CSS:
    .floatleft {
    	float: left;	
    }
     
    .floatright {
    	float: right;	
    }
     
    .inline {
    	display: inline;	
    }
     
    .block {
    	display: block;	
    }
     
    .clearboth {
    	clear: both;	
    }
     
    .clearleft {
    	clear: left;	
    }
     
    .clearright {
    	clear: right;	
    }

    So all I talk about is 7 extra classes and no I don't use 1 letter classes as you can see because I hate messy stylesheets.

  23. #123
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    one thought: before making 1-3 class names that don't mean nothing, i shorten the names the old way (there is always an old way!) by removing as many vowel and consonant as possible but still having enough to guess.

    Code CSS:
    .fllft {
        float: left;    
    }
     
    .flrgt {
        float: right;   
    }
     
    .inl {
        display: inline;    
    }
     
    .blk {
        display: block; 
    }
     
    .clrbth {
        clear: both;    
    }
     
    .clrlft {
        clear: left;    
    }
     
    .clrrgt {
        clear: right;   
    }

  24. #124
    SitePoint Wizard donboe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    one thought: before making 1-3 class names that don't mean nothing, i shorten the names the old way (there is always an old way!) by removing as many vowel and consonant as possible but still having enough to guess.

    Code CSS:
    .fllft {
        float: left;    
    }
     
    .flrgt {
        float: right;   
    }
     
    .inl {
        display: inline;    
    }
     
    .blk {
        display: block; 
    }
     
    .clrbth {
        clear: both;    
    }
     
    .clrlft {
        clear: left;    
    }
     
    .clrrgt {
        clear: right;   
    }
    Thanks. But no thanks. Like I said I don't like messy stylesheets and markup. I'm okay how I use it

  25. #125
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    you're welcome and no problem

    but who knows, someday...


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