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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by peach View Post
    regarding questions about splitting CSS into multiple files and combining and compressing them together, Drupal has this function built in.

    In drupal 7 this has been improved further, it has more intelligent CSS and JS packaging based on which files are required in specific website sections, and also allows themes and modules to opt out of CSS and JavaScript compression.

    ps Drupal7 is not finished yet its still a work in progress. hopefully there will be a beta this month
    I am a Drupal fan who never really got started, I think I should really, just been putting it off. Sometimes when you know something is the right thing to do you keep putting it off for no known reason.

    @deathshadow60

    I use Aptana for my HTML and JEdit for my CSS. I use to use HTML-Kit, but since I have pages in all languages it did something with the UTF, which made thing harder for me. I find having 2 editors open makes things easier, particularly when trying to find things.

    Quote:
    In a lot of ways people become over-reliant on their tools, and that's where the mistakes start to happen. From tools like auto-completion it's just a hop skip and a jump to sleazing out pages any-old-way with half-assed copypasta and fat bloated library garbage like YUI, jQuery, Mootools, etc.
    When coding something in CSS and HTML I find Dreamweaver to be very slow in what I want, and coding by hand considerably speeds things up, so I stick with this. In terms of using snippets, I see this as a way to enhance productivity. It also allows people with limited knowledge to do things that otherwise would be impossible.

    I understand what you're saying. Personally I have never used custom-built libraries like YUI or Grid960. I sometimes design using this grid system but since I know how to code I pretty much do it myself. However, my JavaScript is weak, and if I needed to use dynamic JavaScript, I would have no choice but to turn to AJAX.

  2. #27
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    Colour Syntax Highlighting -- Sorry, I'm not a fan of acid trips IRL, why would I want one in my code. Are people like... punctuation blind or something? I really don't get the point of colour highlighting apart from making the code harder to read.
    Are you serious?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    I use Aptana for my HTML and JEdit for my CSS.
    See, I never understood that -- why would you want different editors when all you are doing is working with plaintext?!? (but that's like when writing templates or US English sites I wonder why someone would EVER use anything other than 7 bit ASCII)

    But then, there's a lot of things other people do that I don't understand why they waste their time with -- see that steaming pile of shmutz known as Dreamweaver.

    Quote Originally Posted by hash View Post
    Are you serious?
    Completely. Maybe it's just my eyes, maybe it's that I was coding some two decades before there even was such a thing... I still remember when Turbo Pascal 4 came out with it, and I couldn't read one bit of it... have NEVER been a fan. If find the acid trip of colour highlighting completely illegible and headache inducing. To me it's more of the "Gee ain't it neat" bull leaving me to ask "Yeah, but what the hell good is it?!?"

    But it's like when people put extra spaces around operators -- I can't figure out where anything begins or ends, and I end up asking "what, are people punctuation blind?!?"

    Though I think a lot of the blame for that one can be laid squarely on "courier new's" shoulders. WORST font for a text editor -- EVARRRRR!!!

    Been half tempted to open up fontforge and make a .ttf version of FixedSys that's got UTF-8 extended in it.

  4. #29
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    See, I never understood that -- why would you want different editors when all you are doing is working with plaintext?!? (but that's like when writing templates or US English sites I wonder why someone would EVER use anything other than 7 bit ASCII)

    But then, there's a lot of things other people do that I don't understand why they waste their time with -- see that steaming pile of shmutz known as Dreamweaver.
    I am sympathize with you on the Dreamweaver front. However, I find using two editors easier, because I know one is for CSS, and another is for HTML. It's more of management rather than anything else. JEdit is very easy to use, and both editors are free! is it's good for me! I would never buy a text-editor, but this is my personal preference.

  5. #30
    I Use MODx kenquad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    What I do is I group things in my CSS. For instance:

    /* main text */
    .maintext {}
    .maintext li {}
    .main text .quotes {}
    I use these tactics heavily. I like descendant selectors so much that I will actually use different tags unnecessarily in my code, e.g.

    Code:
    <div id="thisdiv">
    <div>Content 1</div>
    <span>Content 2</div>
    So that this can be styled:

    Code:
    #thisdiv {
    }
    
    #thisdiv div {
    }
    
    #thisdiv span {
    /*probably add display:block here to make it act like a div*/
    }

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenquad View Post
    I use these tactics heavily. I like descendant selectors so much that I will actually use different tags unnecessarily in my code, e.g.

    Code:
    <div id="thisdiv">
    <div>Content 1</div>
    <span>Content 2</div>
    So that this can be styled:

    Code:
    #thisdiv {
    }
    
    #thisdiv div {
    }
    
    #thisdiv span {
    /*probably add display:block here to make it act like a div*/
    }
    It depends, everybody works differently in their code. The main thing is to get your website styled properly. If you can do this without over-complicating your code then it's worth while. But normally a single class or specifically referring to an element can fix this.

  7. #32
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    develop general styling and custom styling in separate files. for testing use link elements to point to all the stylesheet files. than do some more work before deployment with your coding: gather connected style files in a big one, find redundancies, "compile".

    it's better to separate the developing process from the deployment process. if you've programmed anything else at all, you know that there is an intermediate phase you don't have here: compilation. this one is not present here, but...

    upon finishing, you do what any normal developer is used to: "compile" you every piece of code. use specific tools to minify html, css and js code: remove white space characters, new line characters, comments. hell, i'm even for what a real compiler does: change the names for variables, functions, methods. your final code doesn't have to make sense for the reader, doesn't need to be readable at all not for the end user or the occasional curious, but it needs to be fast and working properly. by making a site you don't teach the web, you develop and deploy. your final page doesn't need live edit, all good coding is not done hasty. when you need to make mods, start from the top: make mods in the "for developing" version, "compile" it, then deploy it.

    you may argue: instead of a one step you may have more. well, you'll always have the source and the compiled versions for any normal programming environment. why not here?

    and this way you don't have to worry about stupid class or id names, stupid commenting or any other moot points

  8. #33
    I Use MODx kenquad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    use specific tools to minify html, css and js code: remove white space characters, new line characters, comments.
    Any specific tools to recommend?

  9. #34
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    there isn't yet a complete serious tool to canvass consistently through all three layers and make the changes accordingly in all of them. like changing the class/id names the same in your html markup, in your css style and in your javascript code. i'm still looking for one. until then, semi-manual labour. i even thought of starting to build one myself... given the time, which i don't really have right now. i'd be happy to participate in a project of this sort though

    otherwise, you can look for css minify or javascript minify (which you'll find more of) and take your pick.

    but i do recommend you this way of doing things. there are already small steps made in this direction today, and it's a proven method in the history of programming.

  10. #35
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    @kenquad
    I organize my css like this:
    main.css
    Code CSS:
    /*global styles (something like resets)*/
    * {
      margin:0;/*this is just as a sample*/
      padding:0;
    }
    /*shared styles (for general styling)*/
    body {
      font-family:Georgia,serif;
      background:#000;
    }
    a,p,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6 {
      color:#fff;
    }
    somepage.css
    Code CSS:
    /*this page specific css (if the css is short i just embed it in the page)*/
    #page {
      background:#fff;
    }
    #page a,
    #page p,
    #page h2,
    #page address {
      color:#000;
    }
    #page address {/*I add the #page because I'm paranoid*/
      font-style:normal;
    }

    What I do is simply write embedded css right in the head of the document, then when I'm finished with the page I move what is global to the main.css, and if the embedded css is too large (more than the viewable part of your monitor) then I put it in a separate css file (so that it can get cached by the browser).

    Then after I'm finished I do a rewrite/cleanup of the css (takes minutes really), turn some into re-usable classes like .hightlighted and I'm done, after which I regularly do rewrites and cleanups if I keep working on the sites css.

    I separate the sections of the CSS file with comments, because after trying to keep all the sections in separate files I found out that just pressing Ctrl+F is faster than opening a folder and clicking a css file.


    If your interested in combining css files you can use this combine js/css php script I've used it before and it's pretty good,the only problem is that I never seem to reach the necessary complexity of css to actually have a reason to use it, even when making large portals.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    upon finishing, you do what any normal developer is used to: "compile" you every piece of code. use specific tools to minify html, css and js code: remove white space characters, new line characters, comments. hell, i'm even for what a real compiler does: change the names for variables, functions, methods.
    I could not disagree more -- besides the maintainability headaches of having to maintain two copies, the simple fact is that any good server will have gzip compression to handle that sort of thing (resulting in much higher bandwidth savings) and more importantly if white-space stripping makes that big of a difference, there's probably something horribly wrong with the code in question. In the CSS the MOST that should save is 3 bytes per line of code, and in the markup/js it should be like 5 bytes per line MAX.

    The two or three K saved overall on the average site is not worth the loss in code legibility, the tools to do that sort of thing invariably fail, god help the next person to maintain it should they not have access to the original -- and frankly the time spent on that sort of nonsense is usually better spent elsewhere.

    In my experience 99.99&#37; of the time you have people screwing around with whitespace stripping/minification it's a pathetic cop-out to try and hide fat bloated outdated garbage coding... like slapping DIV around EVERY tag, classes on EVERY element, deprecated tags/attributes that have no place on code written after sometime around 2001, javascript/AJAX for nothing and non-semantic presentational markup.

  12. #37
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    so i see: you have no extra spaces in your code, no extra cr's no extra lf's, only continuous lines of code all your class or id names are about 1 to 3 chars long, and so on no likely my friend!

    you can disagree, and so can i

    "maintainability headaches of having to maintain two copies" doesn't exist. you have the original and the compiled version, not two copies. developing and production versions. like every good programmer i know

    "any good server will have gzip compression" and it will make an even better compression on a minified code.

    "more importantly if white-space stripping makes that big of a difference" which is... what? are we talking kilos or pounds here? or mine is bigger, yours is smaller kind of thing? it makes A difference, which is something in most cases. have you run extensive tests to compute an insignificant gain in 99.99&#37; of all the cases? or are you basing your facts on personal coding preferences?

    "is not worth the loss in code legibility" which is... when? you have the developing coding, don't you? it's not about you or your team, is it? your pascal source code was available to all users when they run your compiled programs?

    "god help the next person to maintain it should they not have access to the original" and so is everywhere on programming heaven what makes you thing that having access to the original code will make any difference?


    "In my experience 99.99% of the time you have people screwing around with whitespace stripping/minification it's a pathetic cop-out to try and hide fat bloated outdated garbage coding... like slapping DIV around EVERY tag, classes on EVERY element, deprecated tags/attributes that have no place on code written after sometime around 2001, javascript/AJAX for nothing and non-semantic presentational markup."

    this one is to get some steam off, isn't it ? how could stripping/minification hide the "slapping DIV around EVERY tag, classes on EVERY element, deprecated tags/attributes that have no place on code written after sometime around 2001"? what it has to do with "non-semantic presentational markup"?

  13. #38
    I Use MODx kenquad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLZ View Post
    I rely too heavily on Firebug telling me which line to go to.
    By the way, thanks for pointing out Firebug's ability to pinpoint the right line. I may start using that

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    so i see: you have no extra spaces in your code, no extra cr's no extra lf's, only continuous lines of code all your class or id names are about 1 to 3 chars long, and so on no likely my friend!
    Whossawassa whosawhat? Englisc, modor wyrter! Gedon eow cwe&#254;an hit!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    "maintainability headaches of having to maintain two copies" doesn't exist. you have the original and the compiled version, not two copies.
    So now 1+1 doesn't equal two? You have two copies -- the original and the deployment one.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    developing and production versions. like every good programmer i know
    Don't spend a lot of time around ASP, Perl or PHP programmers, do you? The internet is NOT a compiled language, it shouldn't be treated as one.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    "any good server will have gzip compression" and it will make an even better compression on a minified code.
    If by 'better' you mean +/- 15 bytes.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    "more importantly if white-space stripping makes that big of a difference" which is... what? are we talking kilos or pounds here? or mine is bigger, yours is smaller kind of thing? it makes A difference, which is something in most cases. have you run extensive tests to compute an insignificant gain in 99.99&#37; of all the cases? or are you basing your facts on personal coding preferences?
    I believe once again you failed to comprehend what I was saying. The negligable savings are not worth the time, effort or headaches involved with it... that's all I was saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    "is not worth the loss in code legibility" which is... when? you have the developing coding, don't you? it's not about you or your team, is it? your pascal source code was available to all users when they run your compiled programs?
    HTML isnt' a compiled language, and again shouldn't be treated as such. MAYBE it's just because I've had to go in and clean up other people's messes where some other coder minified, you get hired to clean up their shlock and go "do you have a non-minified copy of this" and the site owner goes "huh? What's that?" -- It's a waste of time at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    "god help the next person to maintain it should they not have access to the original" and so is everywhere on programming heaven what makes you thing that having access to the original code will make any difference?
    Uhm... DUH. At least if the original non-minified code has meaningful classnames and proper formatting you might be able to pull some form of useful information from it?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    this one is to get some steam off, isn't it ? how could stripping/minification hide the "slapping DIV around EVERY tag, classes on EVERY element, deprecated tags/attributes that have no place on code written after sometime around 2001"? what it has to do with "non-semantic presentational markup"?
    Because a whitespace stripped copy is such an illegible mess you can't tell where anything begins or ends, that's how. Because class shortening or function shortenting in javascript turns it into gibberish? Again, that's a no brainer.

    ... Of course I give a list of examples and you didn't even comprehend it. As I said, "in my experience" -- Every time I've seen whitespace compression used, the sites in question had all of the above, basically **** that time should have been spent fixing INSTEAD of sleazing it out with some whitespace compression tool. See the 10:1 or even 100:1 code to content ratio's that are polluting the internet these days; it's sad when people are using CSS and JS to 'save bandwidth' and end up with pages that are even more bloated trash than if they'd just written it in HTML 3.2!

    Though... I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours on this. I mean, take my code at:

    http://www.ewiusb.com/

    It's not even worth wasting my time on whitespace compression with that. As is I've got 11k of markup compressed to 4k, 11k of CSS compressed to 3k - by the time you whitespace strip you're lucky if it saves 1k total betwixt the two BEFORE compression, which means double digit bytes after compression. Not even worth the hassle. (especially if the server caches the compressed copy of the CSS). My average page on a website these days maintains less than a 2.5:1 code to content ratio on just the markup, and a 5:1 overall code to content ratio. White space stripping the markup would chop off around 800 bytes, which wouldn't even show up as more than 30 bytes on the compressed copy, and make the php that's generating it an illegible mess to boot.

    Let's see one of yours and we'll compare. (I've noticed you've never once linked to code you've written...)

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    "Whossawassa whosawhat? Englisc, modor wyrter! Gedon eow cweþan hit!?!" is something i don't understand either if you don't get what cr's and lf's mean, i'll be happy to assist you.

    "So now 1+1 doesn't equal two? You have two copies -- the original and the deployment one." a copy is usually an identical replica. this is not the case, as these two, dev and depl, don't look nowhere near identical. only in the final result they are, but not in the way they "look" written.

    "HTML isnt' a compiled language, and again shouldn't be treated as such. MAYBE it's just because I've had to go in and clean up other people's messes where some other coder minified, you get hired to clean up their shlock and go "do you have a non-minified copy of this" and the site owner goes "huh? What's that?" -- It's a waste of time at best." well, this one is no brainer: "I believe once again you failed to comprehend what I was saying." blame it on the "modor".

    "Uhm... DUH. At least if the original non-minified code has meaningful classnames and proper formatting you might be able to pull some form of useful information from it?!? " i didn't realise html markup was so difficult for you to understand without classes and ids

    "Because a whitespace stripped copy is such an illegible mess you can't tell where anything begins or ends, that's how. Because class shortening or function shortenting in javascript turns it into gibberish? Again, that's a no brainer. " you know, there are code beautifiers that can help you with whitespace stripped. and again, i didn't know you rely so much on meaningful names for class names or function names. you know, code is not to be mistaken with belletristic content

    "Let's see one of yours and we'll compare. (I've noticed you've never once linked to code you've written...)" unfortunately my coding is not used in public websites... and you've already declined once my invitation to show you mine, remember?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    you know, there are code beautifiers that can help you with whitespace stripped.
    That usually do even more harm to the code in my experience... Though usually I can't even load my code into dreamweaver, immediately hit save and not have it end up broken, so I really don't trust that type of stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    unfortunately my coding is not used in public websites...
    That's really fishy sounding.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    and you've already declined once my invitation to show you mine, remember?
    Uhm... no I don't remember actually. Back checking IM's... nothing... back checking posts.... Nope. Not finding it. Then again I may have just not understood it given your broken engrish.

  17. #42
    billycundiff{float:left;} silver trophybronze trophy RyanReese's Avatar
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    I know I have no authority in the forums here, but lets keep this civilized . I can see this starting to go astray..
    Twitter-@Ryan_Reese09
    http://www.ryanreese.us -Always looking for web design/development work

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanReese View Post
    I know I have no authority in the forums here, but lets keep this civilized . I can see this starting to go astray..
    hehehe... I like this can of discussion, it helps me see things from two sides of the coin. hehehe

    Whossawassa whosawhat? Englisc, modor wyrter! Gedon eow cwe&#254;an hit!?!
    Is this Welsh or something. Thinking it's double-dutch .... hehehe

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    dreamweaver? no, not by far. notepad++ will do just fine. vm also. code beautifiers are not code enhancers. it's the same mary under the hood

    "That's really fishy sounding." i'm sorry to hear that. i work in a state institution. since 2007 we switched from proprietary platforms to web technologies and java. hence my interest in sp forums.

    "Uhm... no I don't remember actually." you should remember about the rounded corner techniques post at least. i've left you there a message, but only Stomme poes answered to that

  20. #45
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    I agree with deathshadow that compressing CSS files just isn't worth the trouble. The few bytes it manages to shave if is really negligible.
    For JS however I do see the merits, especially since it shortens variable names which can indeed save quite a lot of bytes (especially for those using variable names like variableThatHoldsInformationOnSomethingImportant).

    My problem with minifying is mostly that the two versions (compressed and uncompressed) can become unmanagable, and the danger is bigger here for CSS files. What if you find a bug in the CSS and decide it's too much trouble to change it in the original source and recompress it, because you can just update it in the compressed version and you'll remember later when you need to compress the uncompressed version again later, right? (believe me, you won't)
    Then when you compress the uncompressed file later after some changes the bug is back and you're screwed ...

    On the websites I built I use a script that combines all CSS files into one and all JS files into one, while it's at that I'll let it compact the files as well, but before I used that script I compressed everything manually. Believe me, never again!
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  21. #46
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    you really haven't seen names for classes or ids or functions like innerOuterSuperDupperThingie then in html and css these are not to shave off just a few bytes.

    if you decide to not change it in the developing version, but live, you are the only one to blame. if you do it once, shame on me. twice... you know the rest. that's why i gave the compiling example: you cannot make changes to the compiled version for languages that compile, you need the source, make changes in it and then recompile it. so it is with html. for me. comments, spaces don't go on production code. our bandwidth is very expensive and nation wide use has its toll.

  22. #47
    I Use MODx kenquad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanReese View Post
    I know I have no authority in the forums here, but lets keep this civilized . I can see this starting to go astray..
    I second the motion...

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    you really haven't seen names for classes or ids or functions like innerOuterSuperDupperThingie then in html and css these are not to shave off just a few bytes.
    Wait, you mean you know a tool that renames CSS classes and ids in CSS files and updates the HTML in the appropriate places as well?
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  24. #49
    billycundiff{float:left;} silver trophybronze trophy RyanReese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScallioXTX View Post
    Wait, you mean you know a tool that renames CSS classes and ids in CSS files and updates the HTML in the appropriate places as well?
    Find and replace
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenquad View Post
    I second the motion...
    Alright. Everyone, consider yourself warned to behave, or warnings/infractions will be dealt out, and I'd rather not see that happen.
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