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View Poll Results: Do you prefer to use a PC or a Mac for web design and development?

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  • PC every time baby!

    23 37.70%
  • PC, but they're not perfect ...

    11 18.03%
  • Indifferent

    4 6.56%
  • Mac, but they're not perfect ...

    2 3.28%
  • A P-what? Give me my Mac!

    17 27.87%
  • PC, but not windows

    4 6.56%
  • Mac, but not MacOS

    0 0%
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Thread: PC or Mac?

  1. #26
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    On most systems \r is carriage return and \n newline feed... I think.

    Example:

    You've made a mistake...

    Throughout your 14,000 line program you've put

    <% mc_comp('filename', 'opions') %>

    instead of the new version of the syntax:

    <& 'filename', 'options' &>

    Now this mistake might occur on 2000 lines.
    You fancy going through all of them? nope

    So you use a regular expression to fix your problem.
    In vi the exact syntax would be:

    :%s/% mc_comp(\(.\+\)) %/\& \1 \&/

    This says:

    : < This is the start of a vi command - pressing : will start a command line at bottom of the page

    % < Do this for all lines. Another way of saying 1,$ (from line 1 to end)

    s < This is normal regular expression syntax for replace - or switch

    the \( and \) mean to match anything inside there

    the . is any character

    the \+ means Any number of occurances

    \1 means whatever was last explicitly matched inside () [ or \( \) in vim ]

    Get it?

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  2. #27
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    Funny!

    You Mac users are an odd crowd -- not usually that easily converted!

    I have a little Toshi Satellite too -- they're great.

    G

    Ps - 93 minutes into my working day and my G4 has just crashed for the first time today ...

  3. #28
    Currently Occupied; Till Sunda Andrew-J2000's Avatar
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    just so you know, although windows xp has advanced greatly compared to its Predecessors i think windows 2k is by far more stable. Not only that you have trouble with things being varified by microsoft which at first and still are lagging behind on this.

    I had so much trouble with windows xp i had to format 7 times, whilst trying to upgrade due to conflicts with sound blaster platinum etc. Any way i still would stick to pc's but i'm definately gonna check out the linux scene

  4. #29
    Currently Occupied; Till Sunda Andrew-J2000's Avatar
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    yea cheers mate, what other features does it have that will be beneficial when developing sites?

  5. #30
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    Angry Spleen venting!

    Sorry, but I just had enough!!!

    It's Monday morning, I have a five o'clock deadline, the fonts I need are on my Mac so I can't do the job on my PC and it's just crashed three times on the trot!!!!!

    NNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!


  6. #31
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Stored proceedures.

    You can press a sequence of keys to start recording your actions. By then using generic movements to move and change bits of code - then ending the proceedure .... you can then call the proceedure over and over again - on different lines, or multiple lines - to make life easier.

    Searching.

    Simply /whatever searches forwards and ?whatever searches backwards through a document.

    navigation.

    w moves over words forward, b backwards.
    Pressing a number(like fifty) will repeat the command that many times. so 50 right-arrow will move you fifty places acroos.

    Deleting
    dd deletes a line,
    dw deletes a word.
    yy copies a line
    likewise 50 dd would delete 50 lines.

    Whatever is deleted or yanked is put in the buffer...
    you can then put it back anywhere with p.

    So you could move 50 lines from one place to another in
    a matter of five or so keystrokes.

    The main difference is this:

    vi isn't in "insert mode" normally.

    you can't insert into the document without pressing i to start inserting at the cursor and esc to stop.
    I inserts at the beginning and A at the end.

    All these commands make, once you're used to them, working in vi EXTREMELY fast indeed.

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  7. #32
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Yikes ... Linux often enjoys up to 365 years uptime with
    no crashes.

    I've not had a crash on my windows 2k machine in about three months...


    ... and allow I'm not certain - i don't think i can blame my machine for a powercut...

    What OS are you on?

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  8. #33
    SitePoint Enthusiast Adryanv's Avatar
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    Hmmm

    :Adryan hands Greg some herbal tea:

    Hmmm yeah, we Mac people are an odd bunch . When I decided to go PC all of my Mac friends and my girlfriend (who is another Machead)actually tried to stop me! Short of tying me in duct tape and stealing my credit card, one even wrote a 3 page Word file telling me of all the horror stories he experienced on the PC. LOL. I almost never switched...hehe, when the RDF is strong its hard to see things clearly...

    BTW good luck on your work.

  9. #34
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    Mac OS 9 -- it's shockingly bad. It's not even letting me rebuild my desktop now. I'm sorry, but after my experiences with OS 8 and OS 9 over the last two years Macs will struggle to ever redeem themselves!!



    Ps - Thanks Adryan! I think I'll need it at this rate ....!

  10. #35
    Currently Occupied; Till Sunda Andrew-J2000's Avatar
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    win 2k/win xp (on the other laptop)

    win 98/me/xp at the office, i tried to get them all on 2k, but microsoft changed there upgrading scheme as you can't get any upgrades for it anymore. So the accountant decided to use xp lol. Also im still waiting to upgrade the other machines, (it's all just hassle).

  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard Bill Posters's Avatar
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    Originally posted by greg.harvey
    Mac OS 9 -- it's shockingly bad. It's not even letting me rebuild my desktop now. I'm sorry, but after my experiences with OS 8 and OS 9 over the last two years Macs will struggle to ever redeem themselves!!
    Remember there's always the possibility that it is something that 'you' are doing/have done/have added that is creating the problem.

    I'm still on Mac OS 9.0.4 and have been since my G4 (Yosemite) arrived in September '99.

    It is as solid as a rock despite having an unhealthily large array of 3rd party extensions and all the unreasonable demands that I put on its 400Mhz processor and its 448MB of RAM (both meagre by modern standards).

    I rarely run Nortons and when I do, I do so through habit rather than neccessity.
    Even when i do the worst thing it finds is bad modification dates (invariably from recently added files from recently installed sw).

    The *only* time my machine ever goes down is as a (direct or indirect) result of Internet Explorer (which has some notoriously bad faults).

    I'm not sure what kind of maintenance you do with your machine, but if my experiences with the Mac OS are any reflection, then I wouldn't be so quick to point the finger at OS9.

    Just a thought
    New Plastic Arts: Visual Communication | DesignateOnline

    Mate went to NY and all he got me was this lousy signature

  12. #37
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    We have a Mac support team who do all that stuff. I don't touch my machine (except for the reset button -- regularly!)

    As an example -- the desktop was rebuilt just about a week ago -- nothing has been installed since then -- this morning all I had to do was open Flash and create a tween and the damned thing fell over. Then on restart it kept picking up a bogus network connection that never existed and that caused it to crash.

    *sigh*

    Maybe I'm just unlucky, but we used to work on three different Macs in another agency -- web team was three guys, three Macs and two PCs -- we used to fight over the PCs! (Still -- you could say at least the Macs got us into work on time -- last in didn't get a PC! )

    G

  13. #38
    SitePoint Enthusiast Adryanv's Avatar
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    I guess in fairness to the Mac, OS 9 never died on me even when I do heavy photoshopping and manipulating huge mega megabyte files. Ditto with Freehand 9, MS Office 2001, and BBEdit as well.

    In my experience the only time I get lots of crashes on OS 9 was when I tried to use my G4 Tibook for heavy Flash projects and Adobe Acrobat editing (it drove me nuts). Maybe the instability is caused by some sort of bad software configuration on my Tibook, the slow 400 MHZ or not enough RAM or a combination of the three. Hmmm.

  14. #39
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    Now you mention it -- I have little or no trouble with Photoshop. Macromedia stuff seems to screw up most of the time. Even our Mac technicians are at a loss as to what the web team do to Macs though. It's weird! I always say "We try to use them, rather than just ripping our CD collection on them!"

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard Bill Posters's Avatar
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    Originally posted by greg.harvey
    We have a Mac support team who do all that stuff. I don't touch my machine (except for the reset button -- regularly!)

    As an example -- the desktop was rebuilt just about a week ago -- nothing has been installed since then -- this morning all I had to do was open Flash and create a tween and the damned thing fell over. Then on restart it kept picking up a bogus network connection that never existed and that caused it to crash.
    Sorry to say this, but it sounds suspiciously like your Mac support people don't know what they are doing.

    Re: The Servers
    Startup volume > System Folder > Servers.

    On OS9 you will find aliases to remote servers in there.
    Remove them and the OS/File Sharing will no longer attempt to connect to them on Startup.

    If for some reason this fails to resolve the problem then trash the file AppleShare Prep file.
    (Startup volume > System Folder > Preferences > AppleShare Prep)

    It is possible that server aliases have migrated onto that machine without ever being connected to those particular servers.
    The alias could have been put there either by accidental copying, by a connection made to that server (that you are unaware of) or by being left on that HD if it once was fitted on a Mac which 'was' connect to that server at some point.

    Anywho...

    Re: Desktop Rebuild
    This is simply an invisible record of the files, applications and icons on that HD.
    It is highly unlikely that the Desktop DB/DF (aka Desktop Database File) is responsible for the crashing that you describe.

    Problems with the Desktop DB/DF are usually no more than a document losing its association with an application or a document losing its icon or custom icon layouts not being used correctly.

    It sounds much more likely to be a corrupted file or a damaged directory.

    I suggest that your Mac support people run Norton's or TechTool Pro over the affected HD (ideally with Extensions off) which should repair broken files and directories in situ and/or perhaps run DiskWarrior (which will completely rebuild a fresh directory based on what is actually present on your HD).

    The Directory is *not* the same thing as the Desktop file.
    Rebuilding the desktop while the Directories are damaged will not clear the kinds of problems you are having at all and will most likely only result in the creation of a damaged Desktop DB too.


    It really sounds as though the Macs at your workplace could do with some proper support and regular maintenance.

    I don't like to question the knowledge of your Mac team, but if what you say here is based on what 'they' tell 'you', then, as I said before, it sounds as though your Mac Support team don't really know what they are doing.

    ---

    Originally posted by Adryanv
    In my experience the only time I get lots of crashes on OS 9 was when I tried to use my G4 Tibook for heavy Flash projects and Adobe Acrobat editing (it drove me nuts). Maybe the instability is caused by some sort of bad software configuration on my Tibook, the slow 400 MHZ or not enough RAM or a combination of the three. Hmmm.
    I know that Flash 5 definately has one or two memory issues in its Mac version.

    I recently had to bump up the apps RAM allocation to 800MB just to get an SWF containing 3 x 1 minute MP3s processed and published.
    This is a known issue/bug for that version of Flash for Mac.

    That being said, I never had it crash on me, even when the RAM was insufficient.
    It would simply hang for a while then throw up an 'out of memory' alert.

    I have yet to see if it still exists in MX as I still need to upgrade my OS before I can give MX (and many other recent versions of my usual apps) a go.
    New Plastic Arts: Visual Communication | DesignateOnline

    Mate went to NY and all he got me was this lousy signature

  16. #41
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Do you think, Bill, that this problem ( or a relative one for the OS ) would appear on a windows system?

    Just a quick question.

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  17. #42
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    It maybe that Mac support are useless! I don't know -- I wouldn't know -- all I know is that my PC works without anyone tinkering with it and my Mac doesn't. Thanks for the advice though. I'll tell them to Norton it.

    Flawless makes a good point.

    G

  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard Bill Posters's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Flawless_koder
    Do you think, Bill, that this problem ( or a relative one for the OS ) would appear on a windows system?

    Just a quick question.
    I've no idea as I'm not overly familiar with the guts of the Windows OS.

    However, I would be surprised to find out that a crashing app/util in Windows could *never* corrupt any part of the OS.

    I trust that Windows OS is as susceptible to corruption as most other OSs as Windows is well-supported by a good number of maintenance app/util developers.


    The root cause of the corruption on that/those Mac/s could have been from a bug in an App rather than a bug n the OS.
    It could have even been from the memory bug in Mac Flash.
    That would simply mean that Mac Flash can create serious problems for an otherwise stable OS.

    I'm not saying that Mac OS is idyllic and Windows is ruinous (or vice versa).

    I'm simply trying to address the cause of the problem so that the OS (whether it's Windows or MacOS) is not blamed unfairly.

    I'm sure much of the bad rep that Windows stability has amongst Mac users is the result of instability at the hands of 3rd-party apps and utils rather than with the Windows OS itself.

    It is clear that regardless of the uncertainty of the root cause of his problems, greg now has a stigmatised view of Macs in general.

    I just like to make sure that people are acting on the right information.
    Last edited by Bill Posters; Jul 29, 2002 at 06:21.
    New Plastic Arts: Visual Communication | DesignateOnline

    Mate went to NY and all he got me was this lousy signature

  19. #44
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    Hmmmmmmm ... I wouldn't say *never* but it's never happened to me. Not with NT. That said, Windows 98/ME can be every bit as bad!

    NT's great though (or Win2K -- same difference!) One very nice feature of NT is the way that it *doesn't* fall over if on app crashes. Win98/ME sort of does this too, but it's not very reliable. Anyway, that way if there is a bit of a bug with an app that causes it to crash it doesn't freeze the entire system. That app might hang but then you can force it to quit and carry on as before. Someone once explained it to me with a box analogy. MacOS has one big box of memory that everything dips in to ... problem being that if one app messes up the 'box' that all the apps are using you're in big trouble. Whereas NT opens a new memory 'box' when you open an app, so each app has it's own 'box'. That way it can't mess up another app if it screws up. I may be wrong, but that's how an IT guy has explained it to me before .....

    I know MacOS is supposed to allow the same, but it rarely works (though I hear that's something that's been resolved in OSX .... ?) I wouldn't know cos we can't use OSX due to some of our s/w (most notably Quark -- as discussed earlier in this thread) isn't available in an OSX compatible form. D'oh!

    G

  20. #45
    SitePoint Wizard Bill Posters's Avatar
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    Originally posted by greg.harvey
    ...Anyway, that way if there is a bit of a bug with an app that causes it to crash it doesn't freeze the entire system. That app might hang but then you can force it to quit and carry on as before. Someone once explained it to me with a box analogy. MacOS has one big box of memory that everything dips in to ... problem being that if one app messes up the 'box' that all the apps are using you're in big trouble. Whereas NT opens a new memory 'box' when you open an app, so each app has it's own 'box'. That way it can't mess up another app if it screws up. I may be wrong, but that's how an IT guy has explained it to me before...

    ...I know MacOS is supposed to allow the same, but it rarely works
    In Mac circles it's referred to as 'protected memory'.

    OS X uses it, but not pre-OS X OSs.

    Even with the system heap free-for-all that all pre-OS X OSs use, it isn't always the case that every app crash requires an immediate restart.
    Quite often a force quit is enough to free up the machine long enough to finish up what you are doing in the other apps.
    It is recommended that you restart asap, but you can get other open documents saved before doing it.


    With Unix at its heart, OS X is by all accounts about as solid as a modern GUI-carrying OS can be.
    All I hear are glowing testimonials about it from users and reviewers from both camps.

    I guess I'll have to upgrade sometime soon as Jobs has already read the moritorium on OS9.

    There aren't actually that many apps/util that I simply must have that require me to upgrade my OS.
    DW Mx, perhaps, if only to see how good a job it does of standards code. (I currently do most of my finessing in BBEdit.)

    As I said before, my little OS 9.0.4 is 100% stable (as long as IE hasn't been on too long) so I'm in no mad rush to go OS X.

    That being said, it would be nice to know that however badly behaved IE was, I wouldn't need to restart the machine.

    I think I just convinced myself

    I'm curious to know whether after IE has crashed I can open it again into a fresh allocation or whether it is a no-go with IE until after a restart.

    P.S.
    Fwiw, I hear only good things from those using Adobe InDesign, even from those who've taken the plunge and switched from Quark.
    With Quark dragging its heals like this, InDesign may well turn out to be the "Quark-Killer" it was originally billed as.
    Last edited by Bill Posters; Jul 29, 2002 at 07:31.
    New Plastic Arts: Visual Communication | DesignateOnline

    Mate went to NY and all he got me was this lousy signature

  21. #46
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    It isn't always the case, but I find everything goes about 80% of the time -- but then we've already established that my Mac needs dismantling (with a sledge hammer or something!)

    I have InDesign on my Mac. Trouble is, you say InDesign to Joe Art Director in my office and they start spitting and throwing things at you! They're too set in their ways I'm afraid ...... Oh well. Reluctance to change is killing InDesign in the typography industry.

    The stupid thing is, most good typographers don't rate Quark either! They just know how to use it .....

    G

  22. #47
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    BTW -- you'll be pleased to know that since one of the resident trained chimpanzees came and fiddled with my Mac this morning it hasn't crashed today. Hey ho -- until next time!

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard Bill Posters's Avatar
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    Originally posted by greg.harvey
    BTW -- you'll be pleased to know that since one of the resident trained chimpanzees came and fiddled with my Mac this morning it hasn't crashed today. Hey ho -- until next time!
    I know this is getting a little off-topic (ish), but can you tell me what s/he said was the problem and what s/he did to fix it?

    I'm jsut curious to know
    New Plastic Arts: Visual Communication | DesignateOnline

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  24. #49
    Drupaler bronze trophy greg.harvey's Avatar
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    I wasn't really looking, but I think they DID do that server folder thing you were talking about, and rebuilt the desktop, but they do that as a matter of course .....

    Don't think they had a clue what was crashing Flash though. It's just stopped doing it.



    Edit:

    No it hasn't!!! @!*&%!!! And there's no IT support around now!
    Last edited by greg.harvey; Jul 29, 2002 at 10:48.

  25. #50
    Weird Little Girl Desdelena's Avatar
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    I would have to agree with the person who said the best platform is the one that you are the most productive with. Neither Windows or Mac (or any other) OS is perfect. Im a PC girl myself... I worked on a Mac for over 4 years and I spent more time fixing the thing that I ever did working on anything. I cant say anything good about them except for the mouse speed (which I can duplicate on my PC). Im really good with my PC, and I rarely ever have a problem with anything on it let alone a problem I cant fix myself.
    Memento Mori


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