DS60, you literally could not have posted a better example of exactly what I was criticizing you for than you did right now. I honestly don't know what else to say.
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DS60, you literally could not have posted a better example of exactly what I was criticizing you for than you did right now. I honestly don't know what else to say.
Huh? I'm sorry, your response was too short, I didn't understand it.(joke)
Actually, it means "brief in words, but comprehensive in scope". I think what they are trying to say is you take 700 words to do what 5 could.
You are brilliant, and I enjoy a good ramble, but it's gotten to the point already that I see your full page posts and I just can't bring myself to sort and sift so that I can pull out your one or two pearls.
But yeah, this inappropriate analysis of DS60 is feeding his megalomania. Let's do him a favour; let's stop!!
I do agree with him on the avoid the shiny happy ones,
<yoda>they must neither avoid nor embrace the dark side</yoda>
Depends on your dictionary. That's the new world version I believe, I'm more a American Heritage type:Originally Posted by BLZ
marked by brevity of expression or statement
free from all elaboration and superfluous detail
Great when you can look up a word in three dictionaries and come up with three different meanings. Again, separated by a common language.
That's a fun setup for when they do find someone:
<yoda>Looking for someone? Found someone you have hmmm?</yoda>
Off Topic:
Originally I posted a snippet, but figured a link would be better given how far OT this is. so far as geek checks go.
In a off topic far far away
http://www.classicbattletech.com/for...c,37930.0.html
Last edited by deathshadow60; Jun 25, 2010 at 13:48. Reason: switched to link instead of quoting the way way OT geek check.
Someone once sent me a long email, and at the end of it, they wrote "Sorry this was so long, I didn't have time to make it shorter."
Being concise is not easy, but it is absolutely crucial to effective communication.
I recently had a bad experience with a freelance coder. The main issue i've had is communication. I make sure that I ask questions that seek out information and seek out the developers understanding of my needs.
All these little hints will tell me if they've read the brief, understand the scope and are thinking about the project. It also weeds out the good communicators, and shows a little bit of attitude. His is the very first step I take.
Some of the questions are for them to recap their understanding of my needs, how they plan to approach it etc.. since I have a general knowledge of how the code should work, I can gauge the developer's competency as well.
This gives me a broad look at who I will be choosing.
During the time I worked at a company outsourching, and so far I also feel comfortable enough to be there. Please visit the site below to add your knowledge
<snip>
Last edited by Dan Grossman; Jun 25, 2010 at 23:45.
... and look, we've got nice spam illustrating exactly who not to use
As evidenced in the first case by the 2.1 megabyte page size, total lack of graceful degradation, 54k of markup for 3k of content, 174k of javascript for christ only knows what, and with more than one validation error per ten lines of code it's not even HTML, it's gibberish.
The latter example being engrish moist goodry in an english language forum, and if you understand spanish is nothing more than a get rich quick scammer... with the stock template we usually see from scammers with the narrow fixed width, broken layout with the typical "I can do semantics, see!" -- no, no you can't. Broken heading orders, double breaks for paragraphs, inlined style attributes on what appears to be static content, comment placements known to cause rendering errors in IE (hence the double render of the content column text in the sidebar like some chopped up cut and paste in IE7), etc, etc...
Sometimes knowing who to choose is also about knowing who not to choose; clippingpathcent and febiandoe appear to fit that rather nicely being one-post wonder-spam.
I'm hittingnotifyflag, but ask the mods to leave the two posts in place, they are BOTH excellent learning lessons on who NOT to choose.
My replies are the quotes inside the ds60 quote below.
You know, I've heard that a lot lately and frankly I fail to comprehend how being MORE verbose, explaining things fully, and making similes so people who don't know the subject have something to relate to qualifies as a bad thing. Concise - lacking elaboration and detail; I was taught that's a BAD thing. Not only should one list the choice, decision or proper practice, but explain why, give examples, make comparisons to things they might understand.
But as I recently told another poster here, I think I missed his post completely because it was so concise, I thought it was a 'me too' instead of saying what I ended up posting - since it didn't say WHY.You were taught wrong. Plain and simple. Concise is an art, it is taught in any technical writing course, and similes open up a gaping hole for misunderstanding. Use of metaphors, similes, and overly verbose prose is typical of what you write: a rant.
But I often think communication issues often stem from regional differences. As George Bernard Shaw said, "America and England are two nations divided by a common language". I'm an old school New England Yankee - we are NOT a polite people. "Ya cahnt geht theyah frum heeeyah" isn't just a catch phrase, it's a way of life. Just as Patton said an army cannot run without profanity, I believe the same about any workplace where you actually expect things to be done PROPERLY. "But it has to be eloquent profanity... and as to the types of comments I make, well, by God, sometimes I just get caught up in my own eloquence."I understand skimming, I'm sure I miss a lot as well, but claiming you missed it because the user didn't say WHY or post several paragraphs is deluding yourself.
Candy-coating everything is no way to have anything resembling progress, or to get a job done properly. This namby pamby limp-wristed "if you can't say anything nice" bull is perhaps the most insulting thing I've ever dealt with and I have zero tolerance for it. Something sucks, say it sucks. Somethings wrong, SAY it's wrong. "you can't say anything nice" is a cop-out used by people with their heads in the sand in regards to every problem.You are now trying to justify your personal communication skills by demonstrating that other regions might not "get it" when you tell them to go &*%$ themselves.
<simile>Much like the sheep, people would prefer if the sheepdog was somewhere else, because it is too hard for them to accept that there are actually wolves out there. If the fire extinguishers at a school were faulty, "Heads would roll" - yet kids are a dozen times less likely to encounter a fire in their school than violence - but the mere notion of such violence is so terrifying that people shudder at the thought of NEEDING an armed guard or arming the teachers.</simile>This loudmouthed swear about everything and call a spade a spade attitude is possibly the most insulting thing I've ever dealt with and I have zero tolerance for it. Something sucks, suggest ways to reduce the suck. Somethings wrong, explain why. "You can't say anything nice" is a way to remove the non-constructive from the room.
In that way, the reality of things being wrong/nonsensical/incorrect is too 'tough' for most people to accept, so when someone goes and puts out a laundry list of what's wrong, they're automatically being "unnecessarily harsh" - bull. Harsh is probably the surest indicator of someone trying to help you. Slapping the rose coloured glasses on your head and leading you down the garden path is NOT helpful in the least, no matter how good it feels. Kinda like pissing yourself in dark pants, a warm feeling but nobody notices until the stink hits the air.People are sheep and they need your violence? Don't know what to make of this. I get "unnecessary fear" implication, and for the most part agree, but what is your point? Violence is accepted?acceptable?needed? Maintaining fire extinguishers should take second priority to [something]?
But having traveled I found the regional differences are a healthy part of it - for example I can't spend more than five minutes in a room with your typical twenty-something from the west coast without feeling the overwhelming urge to punch their face in... They're sunshiny cheer combined with a complete lack of anything resembling testicular fortitude not only being annoying, it's almost as outright insulting as when adults talk down to children in that idiot voice that 99% of people seem to automatically shift into when the kid is under the age of 12.What the ... ? What is this relevant to at all? Criticism is a good thing, in most situations. This is just another self justification of how you being an ^%^& is a good thing.
I remember my first trip to Georgia I stopped to gas up and after waiting five minutes in line to pay the bimbo at the register starts chewing my ear off. I finally said "Hey, why are you even talking to me? What do you want out of me?" -- honest to god someone up here pulls that they are probably trying to hit you up for a loan or a really nasty favor. Naturally I kneejerked into "Shut the *** up, gimme my damned change so I can get the hell out of here and you can wait on the fifteen people in line behind me." - naturally she responded with "Well I never!", leading me into the classic "there's half your problem lady"Yet more self justification that your opinion and way of life is fine. Have you traveled outside that cosy, warm, place you so obviously hate? Have you ever left the continent? You will find your regional differences completely pale when you take them globally.
Turned out to not be a pleasant trip when I discovered that is apparently the norm down there. Regional differences about how workplace behaviors are handled are quite surprising; and with the Internet letting disparate regions attempt to work together, conflicts abound. What I grew up understanding to be workplace behavioral norms do not mesh well with the era of political correctness and don't you DARE say anything negative about ANYTHING.wow!
Of course with schools practicing asshattery like "social promotion" and going "you can't do anything to upset the children" it's no wonder we've bred out two generations of thin skinned morons. Maybe if we took some time to upset them a little we'd be pumping out better results on standardized tests, not having half the public having this 'sense of entitlement' where they expect something for nothing, a proper work ethic, and fiscal responsibility at every level slightly more mature than Wimpy's "I would gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- and we wonder why jobs are going overseas.So instead of communicating, or attempting to understand something outside your normal environment, you chose to react like a ^%%^. Well done.
"WE". You do realise there is an international audience reading this? And that SP isn't even a US company? I point this out mainly to allude to the fact that you seem to be on a personal mission, with little respect to anyone else.
If anyone has any personal comments to make, please discuss them via PM.
This is not the place for quarrels about personality, this is a thread asking how to find a good employee - whilst it contains an element of personality, that is all. An element.
Keep this on topic guys or warnings/infractions will be made.
Jake Arkinstall
"Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel;
Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona
That was not a quarrel of personality. SD posted a 300+ word monologue of bigotry. If I'm not allowed to counter that, then by all means, warn/infract, and ban
This isn't a warning specifically to you, this isn't a warning specifically to DeathShadow. This is a request to keep threads on topic; it isn't fair on the original poster.
Besides, retaliation is the beginning of an argument. Take the higher ground
Jake Arkinstall
"Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel;
Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona
I had a difficult client that eventually I stopped doing work for, I'm still in touch with them though and they bemoan that for years that they 'can't find a decent developer'.
However, the problem here wasn't the developers they have hired, but themselves. Their briefs were lazily incomplete, vague, and often poorly though out or even unworkable. Their reaction to the inevitable secondary phases of required changes and increased charges because they never thought things through was obstinate.
They will never find and motivate a developer that is perfect for them because they aren't willing to allocate the necessary money or delegate sufficient control to produce optimum conditions for creating the best results.
I find it interesting that you mention you have presented buggy work to clients when ultimately it's your responsibility to check the work (or pay for a pre launch phase of testing).
You may have been unlucky in your choice of developers over a long period of time, but it's worth considering that your own processes contribute to the end results.
Isn't that like 90% of people who want web stuff done?
The bridge between translating business ideas to programmatic solutions is a tough one to conquer for the client or developer. That is probably the most vital part of a project and often most difficult considering it requires understanding of unfamiliar realms for both parties. On one side you have the developer who needs to understand the business practices and the other client who needs to understand technology and its limitations. Armed with the knowledge both have to come together as one and understand concerns of one another along with security constraints, established patterns,etc. Its a tough one to crack…
The only code I hate more than my own is everyone else's.
Absolutely, in smaller projects I build the cost of enhancing the specification, and a likely phase of 'discovery' into the quote.
In cases where a large project has a complex system which has been woefully underspecified, I'd give the client an option to pay for a consultation phase, and would reject the project if they either can't provide a full spec themselves or aren't willing to pay for the consultancy.
Especially avoid people who don't answer your request with effort.
Sometimes you see projects posted about developing a website which (for example) is about the World Cup and they need live scores being posted from RSS feeds and would like pages with detailed team information etc.
If the response is something like:
Then don't even consider itI am programmer with great experience in world cup. I have qualifications in team information and I have produced many RSS feed
Jake Arkinstall
"Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel;
Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona
I am very competent with HTML and CSS - I've been a professional designer and front end developer for about 5 years now. The only reason I outsource some development work is because I get too busy to handle it and would prefer to be designing and there for turning over more projects / making more money.You mention that your the designer, but that you send the psd file to the developer. Due to this Ill assume that you are not competent with HTML/CSS.
If that is correct, then the problem might be that the design you made which looks great inside the psd file, is very difficult to archive in HTML/CSS. Over the years Ive seen many psd files created by graphic designers that work mainly with print, and some dont understand that web <> print.
Another thing that might be the cause is if your sending the psd to a developer that is mainly a backend developer. Instead you should look for a front end developer to do the slicing and make the HTML/CSS.
Our designer is also our front end developer. While this is two positions in one, it has actually made him better at web design. Mainly due to he has an advanced knowledge on what is possible in HTML/CSS and what is not.
That is correct, but in the end the design does not matter if the user experience is flawed. The most important part of a website/GUI is that the user easily can navigate it and find the information required.
On a side note this does not mean a developer can not adapt as long as you give them the time and resources to do so. Personally I believe its important that every person on the team has knowledge about accessibility and user experience.
I totally see where people are coming from with the point that designers and developers are different people. If it looks good a designer is happy, if it works well then a developer is happy. This will always be the case, but what I'm saying is that more developers need to realise that presenting a site to a client that looks sloppy because things are aligned isn't good enough. I never let this happen and always ask for the developer to tidy things up, but I feel bad for doing it and really should have to ask.
If the website works then yes, that is the most important thing without a doubt. But the thing that sets you apart from the hundreds of other people churning out websites day to day is attention to detail. That's the bottom line for me
... and there's a LOT of details not just in code, but in appearance as well. Many times developers will come up with something attractive, that's a complete disaster in terms of accessibility or even functionality. It's why the W3C started up the WCAG in the first place.If the website works then yes, that is the most important thing without a doubt. But the thing that sets you apart from the hundreds of other people churning out websites day to day is attention to detail. That's the bottom line for me
Failures like fixed metric (aka px) fonts on content areas, color contrasts between the background and foreground text that are too low to actually be legible - these are simple mistakes you see ALL THE TIME. Like in the signature links of half the people in this thread.
Though admittedly, you look at any of my crap from five+ years ago I was making the same mistakes...
Also the mark of a good developer - if they aren't disgusted with their own work from just a year or two ago, or even six months ago, they're probably working in the wrong field.
Good point...and there are so many views, i too like to express my opinion.
First of all, i am against some opinion that...You are looking for cheap and very low price freelancers and at the same time you are expecting a quality of work.
How is it possible, ? you will get what pay for.
Why dont you outsource the work to some company rather than giving the project to some individual or one freelancer ? If you outsource the work to a well established company then you can get the output with quality and on time and also they will be reliable.
In my opinion, you cant expect perfect quality from a freelancer.
you have to go with some company.
Once you have a candidate, how do you know if he or she is the right person?
Request work samples and/or a resume. Look for experience in the field. It doesn't necessarily have to be in custom framing; however, depending on the talent needed, retail, home accessory, art or small business experience could be beneficial. Ask detailed questions about work samples or resume accomplishments. The goal is to understand how this person thinks and what his or her role was in previous successes.
For example, if you're looking at a direct-mail sample, figure out how the person was involved. Did he or she create the strategy, write the copy, design the look, coordinate printing or oversee mailing?
Ask to see a client list. You want to be similar in size to his or her other customers. If you're the smallest on the block, you won't get the attention you deserve. If you're the largest, the freelancer will most likely not have the experience needed for your business.
Conduct an interview. Look for evidence that your professional styles are a good fit. Ask for concrete examples of past performance.
A recent article titled, "Tips on Hiring Contractors" from the International Association of Business Communication's Web site, suggests asking the following questions:
* What makes you ideal for this project?
* Is the time allotted for this project reasonable?
* When have you worked on a similar schedule or deadline?
* Have you ever been in a situation where a client's needs have changed before the project was completed? How did you adapt to meet the new goals?
* What's the most difficult thing about this project? Why?
* What is the least interesting thing about this project? Why will you do it?
* Have you ever had someone question the viability of your solution to a project problem? What was the issue? How was it resolved?
* Give an example of a mistake you made while working on a previous project. What happened? How was the error resolved?
Overall, the best candidates will exhibit strong problem-solving abilities, good communication skills, integrity and a strong motivation to learn.
Talk about money. Find out how the candidate structures fee arrangements. Some freelancers work on retainer and others work on an hourly basis or quoted project fee. Put rates and compensation requirements in writing--it makes everything easier down the road, even on simple projects.
Ask for references and check them. Talking with former or current clients will give you a feel for the scope of the candidate's past projects and how he or she handled them.
Utilize the Talent
Which is the opposite of most everything I've ever seen - truly talented developers getting hired by companies and then having their hands tied behind their back by incompetence above them; Forced into using Dreamweaver, forced into using outdated techniques like tables for layout, being told to slap classes on everything for no good reason -- or worse, having proper coding and design methodologies like those in the WCAG overridden by some art major who knows jack about accessibility.
Worse, they often go and use off the shelf solutions without even TRYING to fix any of the above issues.
"Company" work usually involving some twenty separate files in just CSS and Javascript for some trash 'framework' that defeats the POINT of using CSS in the first place, unneccessary IE conditionals, invalid heading orders, endless unneccessary DIV - hell, even stupid nonsense like inlined static styles, putting the same class on EVERY LI except one or two inside a UL that has a perfectly good class on it or title attributes that are IDENTICAL to the text inside the anchor it's applied to (DOOOEEEY!)
I've not seen work from any 'company' in the field that could hold a candle to what freelancers are capable of. Most of them are fly-by-night outfits slapping out cookie cutter crap on decade old templates using techniques that read like a laundry list of "How not to design a website"
Agreed.
Freelancers typically can't afford to screw you over, because they wouldn't be paid. Companies usually have more money in pocket, so have more freedom to take risks because one small client may mean little to them.
With companies, and this is the major point I have to make, with companies a programmer usually gets paid by the hour. If he does a crappy job, he may get a word from senior staff but he still gets paid. He could take 5 hours doing a 1 hour job because it makes no difference to him.
Personally, I work on a per-job basis. If a client offers, say, £500 for a small application, that will be my payment. If I drag it out longer, thats just delaying me from getting more work - the sooner I deliver (with quality, of course), the faster I can move on to the next job ( and the sooner I can get my rover into the garage and back on the road!).
Freelancers do run a risk, though. They have to be very trusting; a company potentially has lawyers and accountants on their side. I've been screwed over a fair few times, but there's not much a young programmer can do about it. Sure, I've learned my lesson - and now I've made a process which makes it easier to not be screwed over.
First I lay out a plan of what's to be built - and set out a list of key stages. Put a price tag on each stage and, at the end of each stage, send off the current codebase and wait for payment before continuing. That way I'm not working solely on the client's terms, and they're not working on mine - it's simply a case of work/payment 'handshaking' which means I will only lose the payment of one key stage if the client decides to terminate the project or (and this is probably the most agrovating excuse I've heard) falls out with a client further down the chain, meaning their own contract is terminated leaving mine moot.
There are freelancers from hell, but there are also clients from hell.
Jake Arkinstall
"Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel;
Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona
This is kind of an over generalization in my opinion. What you mention can be true both for a company and a freelancer.
The fact is the task/project you want completed it might be easier to deal with a company compared to freelancers.
For example if you need a ecommerce website, and all you got is the "requirements" for the project. Then would it be easier to go with a company or to work with several freelancers?
After all, if you go with a "jack of all traders" freelancer you will end up with a mediocre product in the end. So you do actually need at least one designer and one programmer.
Sure, some freelancers will for example outsource the design or programming part, that way they can take on the project and deliver an acceptable product. However how does that differentiate the freelancer from a company?
If you have an in-house employee that does the work or if you outsource it to someone else does not matter. If a "freelancer" is outsourcing part of the work, then they are taking on the role of a project manager. With other words, there is no difference between the this and how a normal company operate (in my opinion).
Edit:
On a side note, you mentioned that you have lost the payment for projects due to the client has jumped the ship. I am certain that in most cases when that happen its due to a "freelancer" is outsourcing part of the project and have not made certain they are protected by a contract. Even in the cases our client "jump the ship" we still pay out to anyone we outsourced parts of the project to. Then after we follow up with collection from the client according to the contract.
You'er looking for two things really. A good personality/communicator. And a good coder. It's rare indeed to find both.
A good communicator is easy to spot. Go have a few lunches.
Great programmers however, don't look for work, work looks for them. So i would troll various forums. And find the superstars; the posters who answers all the hard questions. Start there.
I guess finding a quite good freelancer can be a problem, and we should rely on recomendations, then?
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