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  1. #101
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    i recommend a class
    Code CSS:
    .boss-wishes-i-have-to-make-come-true {text-align: center}

    it has the right amount of semantic

    still, better than <center>, .centre or .center.

    Off topic: i believe it has nothing to do with the french, but with english and american. termination: -or vs -our, -ter vs -tre.

  2. #102
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Off Topic:

    Many of the spellings in British English come from French or French influence. The s->z difference between American and British is due to the British changing (z's came first (Latin and Greek), were exported to America, while in Britain they were changes to s's). Words with bizarre spelling like "comptroller" are purely due to British aristocrats trying to be like the French ("let's add some silent letters, it'll be more French that way!!").

    The spelling of "ghost" on the other hand, can only be blamed on a Dutchman : )

  3. #103
    Robert Wellock silver trophybronze trophy xhtmlcoder's Avatar
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    Off Topic:

    You made a popup advert in the full knowledge it would be blocked by default by various user agents let alone people with JavaScript disabled, etc. Or were you safe in the knowledge he'd change his mind again? You obviously haven't been fed enough chocolate; to rebel against him enough. ;-)

    Yeah, Dutch Language was popular in Europe the 1600s due to trade.

  4. #104
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Off Topic:

    No the Dutch guy actually made a mistake with "ghost". It's described in the book "Eyes Before Ease" : )

    You made a popup advert in the full knowledge it would be blocked by default by various user agents let alone people with JavaScript disabled, etc. Or were you safe in the knowledge he'd change his mind again?
    He might change his mind if he gets a lot of complaints, but otherwise, I made a popup that he can see and I personally am happy that many users have popup blockers (actually I don't think they'll block this type of popup... it does not user open() ).

  5. #105
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    Colour may be Modern French, but it's also traditional British English. Many anglophiles still type it colour, such as myself -- I was even taught to spell it that way in grade school... kind of like drawing a Z with a dash through it so you don't mistake it for a 2...

    ... and I grew up in New England; specifically the Commiewealth of Taxachusetts. They didn't convert to telling kids not to spell it that way until I hit Junior High (early 80's).

    But you want real fun, check out grey and gray... or the implementation across browsers since certain combinations will accept either-or. Just one of the reasons I don't use named colors.

  6. #106
    It's all Geek to me silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Colour may be Modern French, but it's also traditional British English.
    To an extent. The original English spelling was "color" (the proper spelling ). It was only a few hunnud years ago that some English folk decided it was cool to imitate French (as omma goose said).

  7. #107
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    * Stomme poes sips her merlot and adjusts her monacle... yes, le words, ze do not sound erefined, we must adde le extra letters mmmm? *

    "Comptroller" needs to vanish, yesterday. Like center tags.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramasaig View Post
    I see you guys have finished sniping at each other at last. I'm on the side of the CSS users, but can anyone tell me why 'presentational' class names are so bad, please ?
    If I want to have a centered paragraph, it seems natural to have a class <p class="center">. I can reuse this many many times, and it's always clear what it does.
    You can use presentational tags. Most website designers do.

    Problem is, most website designers are not website designers. Most website designers are coders. In essence, they are website construction workers. They are right-brained individuals who need structure. They need rigidity. They need rules. And this is why they insist on using semantic class names or semantic div names. You see, semantics provide uniformity.

    But proper website designers are less rigid. They see the bigger picture. It is they and not website construction workers who truly understand that content is king. And if they deem it acceptable to use presentational classes, then you and I would do well to follow suit.

    Finally, what's the difference between a website designer and a website construction worker?

    ANSWER: a website designer will tell you that Vincent van Gogh is a Dutch impressionist; a website construction worker will tell you that Hertz van Rentals is a Dutch minimalist.

    Geddit?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew-bkk View Post
    But proper website designers are less rigid. They see the bigger picture. It is they and not website construction workers who truly understand that content is king. And if they deem it acceptable to use presentational classes, then you and I would do well to follow suit.
    You are saying construction workers; NO. Uhm... NO. A better comparison would be a artist to an architect.

    The artist can draw you a really pretty building, but that doesn't make it structurally sound or able to be held upright without the use of unobtanium. They will often draw things that are insanely impractical or often outright impossible to build, that violate all the rules of making a building in the first place.

    To me, that's who the "designers" drawing their goofy pictures in photoshop and calling it a web design are - they're artists.

    The truly masterful people out there have skills in both; They know how to draw the pretty picture, but also realize that there are RULES to how you build a building, and if that means your goofy artsy layout isn't going to work, you throw away the pretty picture. After all, people do not visit websites for the goofy graphics you hang on your layout, they visit for the content INSIDE the layout.

    You ask your average PSD "designer" (and I use the word designer in the loosest sense) and most of them have never heard of the WCAG, and the rest will tell you where to shove it. Accessibility, maintainability and even simple bandwidth concerns are pure profanity to them; usually why I have nothing but four letter words for them in return.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    You are saying construction workers; NO. Uhm... NO. A better comparison would be a artist to an architect. The artist can draw you a really pretty building, but that doesn't make it structurally sound. To me, that's who the "designers" drawing their goofy pictures in photoshop and calling it a web design are - they're artists.

    The truly masterful people out there have skills in both;
    Nice try dude, but you're wrong. In fact, you're completely wrong.

    BTW -- I've slightly altered your quote in order to make it more "artistic". I apologize in advance if this is not allowed.

    The reason you're wrong is because you are under the impression that a website designer is a PSD jockey. No. A PSD jockey is something completely different.

    A website designer is someone who understands design AND coding. AND DOES BOTH.

    A website construction worker, on the other hand, is a coder. Admittedly, some website construction workers may have a modicum of design ability, but generally they don't.

    So, to use your analogy, people like me are the architects and people like you are the builders. Actually, that may sound a little disrespectful. Let's call you a "website engineer". I think that comes across as a bit more accomplished.

    But whatever we call you, the fact remains that you and your fellow "engineers" seldom have the all-round skills needed to deliver a professional product. You just don't have what it takes. You're too rigid. You can't think out of the box. You lack flair; you lack style; you lack artistry; you lack finesse.

    That said, some of the solutions you post on the CSS forums are actually very good.

  11. #111
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    What we really need is for web browsers to start offering an option to turn off all the presentational garbage that can be found in some HTML. With all that garbage actually turned off then we can see the web pages the way that they have really been coded with all of the presentation handled by whatever CSS the page uses and with all the presentational HTML that shouldn't be there (because it is impossible to maintain properly) being ignored.

    If more and more people were to start turning that option on then the web garbage would then be more obvious and provide a greater incentive to get rid of it all.

    Actually it is possible to add some CSS into web browsers that will at least turn a lot of the garbage HTML off in the browser but what we really need is a simple way to turn it on and off on a page by page basis untill the garbage is properly fixed across the web.

    Perhaps a "modern HTML/stone age HTML" switch that defaults to modern unless specifically set for sites that still need fixing - or default it baswed on whether a strict or transitional doctype is used for the page.
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  12. #112
    SitePoint Evangelist Karpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew-bkk View Post
    Nice try dude, but you're wrong. In fact, you're completely wrong.

    BTW -- I've slightly altered your quote in order to make it more "artistic". I apologize in advance if this is not allowed.

    The reason you're wrong is because you are under the impression that a website designer is a PSD jockey. No. A PSD jockey is something completely different.

    A website designer is someone who understands design AND coding. AND DOES BOTH.

    A website construction worker, on the other hand, is a coder. Admittedly, some website construction workers may have a modicum of design ability, but generally they don't.

    So, to use your analogy, people like me are the architects and people like you are the builders. Actually, that may sound a little disrespectful. Let's call you a "website engineer". I think that comes across as a bit more accomplished.

    But whatever we call you, the fact remains that you and your fellow "engineers" seldom have the all-round skills needed to deliver a professional product. You just don't have what it takes. You're too rigid. You can't think out of the box. You lack flair; you lack style; you lack artistry; you lack finesse.

    That said, some of the solutions you post on the CSS forums are actually very good.
    I don't think I've ever disagreed more with a post in my entire time here at SitePoint.

    In my company, designers are the 'PSD jockeys' as you call them, and developers turn that into code, whether that code be HTML/CSS, PHP, JS, etc. I am one such developer who works with all of the above. Keep that in mind for the rest of the post.

    But whatever we call you, the fact remains that you and your fellow "engineers" seldom have the all-round skills needed to deliver a professional product. You just don't have what it takes. You're too rigid. You can't think out of the box. You lack flair; you lack style; you lack artistry; you lack finesse.
    Except that we can actually build you something that works. If you want a content-managable page using a template, we can build it for you. A designer of ANY type can't - you'll either get a nice pretty anti-aliased screenshot, or you'll get static HTML and CSS that your client won't know what to do with, let alone how to edit.

    And if we were left to come up with the page designs ourselves, they wouldn't be as nonsensical and lacking of consideration about the content.

    The amount of times I've had to go back and restructure an entire page, because the provided content has absolutely no correlation with the design... the amount of arguments I've had with 'PSD jockeys' about things like basic accessibility (and lost, hence the fact that virtually every site bigger than a brochure site we do still relies on sIFR), I've completely lost count.

    Developers build stuff that works and build stuff that is usable. That's more than I can say about your kind of designers. Frankly, I find your entire post insulting.

  13. #113
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew
    But whatever we call you, the fact remains that you and your fellow "engineers" seldom have the all-round skills needed to deliver a professional product. You just don't have what it takes. You're too rigid. You can't think out of the box. You lack flair; you lack style; you lack artistry; you lack finesse.
    I'm one of those who fall into the "can code, generally can't design prettily" group. I still can't see <center> or <font> as being any of the things listed above (flair, style, artistry, finesse). I see them as kludges, hacks, and workarounds for either impossible bosses/clients or for those who do not know how to use CSS.

    It is true that developers decide when to use what. When to use a hack, when to use a kludge, when to go all-out and when to do the bare minimum. I prefer if the people making those decisions are very aware of all the possibilities and all the consequences.

    So, to use your analogy, people like me are the architects and people like you are the builders. Actually, that may sound a little disrespectful. Let's call you a "website engineer". I think that comes across as a bit more accomplished.
    Lawlz, my first thought was garbage man -> sanitation engineer! : )

  14. #114
    From Italy with love silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew-bkk View Post
    You can use presentational tags. Most website designers do.
    Yeah, well, once most people used tables for layout. That doesn't mean it's the way to go.
    I'd say those webdesigners should keep to their trade (design) and don't try to tell the webdeveloppers how to do their job.

  15. #115
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    Come on guys and gals, this has gone back to a slanging match. I'm unsubscribing.
    Tim Dawson
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  16. #116
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim
    Come on guys and gals, this has gone back to a slanging match.
    The best way to enjoy a sporting match is with popcorn (or, in my case, M&Ms : )

  17. #117
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    nevermind coders or designers , given the actual example of Stomme poes, the use of <center> will not make you remember why you center it in the first place (or a colleague that takes your place). that's dangerous as your boss may remember and you don't (or the colleague makes a mistake not knowing he did one).

    if you want to remember (in time you'll surely forget and maybe changing it is making your boss angry), you might code <center class="boss-wishes-i-have-to-make-come-true-last-line">. but then you better use any other <element> that fits, it's not deprecated and it's more than a patch, and make css magic (i guess even designers have heard about it ).

    there is no reason other than the lack of knowledge and/or disrespect for standards (which you'll pay eventually) to use a deprecated element. and given the contradiction brought by the html5, this can also be forgiven. but in maintaining a site, designers and coders work together.

    and i believe that web designer term is actually referring to the actual coder, not the graph creator/page arranger. the web designer in andrew-bkk understanding is, in fact, just a designer.

    and i say that because in the old days of desktop programming (or even dos days) there were only coders who also designed the interface. in this new web era, coders employ designers not for interface but for publicity trough interface. and that makes them just designers, and makes coders the web designers. they are creating (designing) the web, not blue pixel, red pixel, shadow. look at css round corners...

  18. #118
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    given the actual example of Stomme poes, the use of <center> will not make you remember why you center it in the first place (or a colleague that takes your place). that's dangerous as your boss may remember and you don't (or the colleague makes a mistake not knowing he did one).
    Ah, now I'm not using center tags, I'm using something almost as bad:

    $element class="center" and $element class="bold"
    where the class name is to remind me (again, if there's actually a REASON for the styling I can use that instead... but usually there isn't). It's also more used in the underwear-changing-phase rather than code that actually gets online (once it's going online it's a bit more stable, and I can see where I can make names make more sense).

    Off Topic:

    Very likely if/when I leave this job, there will not be a front-ender hired to replace me. Instead, back-end developers will have to replace all my HTML and CSS with tables, because that's what the guys here know. Hell, I'll maybe have to write the tables myself, so they can start working the moment I'm gone : (

  19. #119
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    i only took the example from you, Stomme poes. i've seen you're not a <center> fan . as for classes names... it's not really the topic here. i didn't want to stray too far.

  20. #120
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Well, it kinda is the topic... because over and over again we go around saying "class="center" is as bad as align="center" which is no better than <center>" and so the question "what's so terrible about using <somedeprecatedtag>?" I think also encompasses the other two, generally. The answer for all of them is also pretty much the same.

  21. #121
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    i disagree.

    if you use proper css and html elements, it's only a poor choice to go with classes like .center or .red. maintainability is a problem, but at least the html content it's sound.

    using <center> however poses more questions about maintainability. also, it implies a surface knowledge regarding html or a rushed job done by a lazy person.

    the first says "i'm getting there, but i'm only human. i have a foundation, just need a ... style".

    the later recommends you for the idiot's guide to html. it's easy enough to make you look like you know what you're doing. in front of 5th graders.

    the use of <center>, as i see it, it's justifiable only when you really really have to centre lines and without css. lynx comes to mind, although no CSS navigation for graphic browser it's a possibility. but if <center> is deprecated, then it's possible it won't be missed.

  22. #122
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Whatever way you specify that it iis centered in the HTML whether using the 10th century <center> tag, the 12th century align="center" or 20th century class="centre" it is still either going to take months to change it when you need the content left justified instead. The problem with all of these is that you have to make changes to every page of your site instead of to one CSS file.

    Also what happens when you just want it left justified for printing but still centered on the screen.
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Also what happens when you just want it left justified for printing but still centered on the screen.
    ... and I think you just hit on something it often seems like 99%+ of web developers are either blissfully unaware of, or just plain ignoring.

    MEDIA TYPES.

    screen, print, handheld, projection, tv, teletype...

    ... and you might not even want to be applying the styling to all of those. It's why my screen.css is applied to screen,projection,tv, and if I'm working for handheld I do a handheld.css and for print, print.css.

    Code:
    <link
    	type="text/css"
    	rel="stylesheet"
    	href="screen.css"
    	media="screen,projection,tv"
    />
    
    <link
    	type="text/css"
    	rel="stylesheet"
    	href="print.css"
    	media="print"
    />
    
    <link
    	type="text/css"
    	rel="stylesheet"
    	href="handheld.css"
    	media="handheld"
    />
    Sure, it's not always applied consistently across browsers and devices, but if you're designing them for graceful degradation it works just fine.

    Sure beats the living piss out of the people who name theirs "style.css" with no media type; or worse, have ten or more separate stylesheets with no media type.

    Here's a tip, you have more than two CSS files per media attribute, or aren't even using the media attribute -- you've probably shot your horse in the foot before the gate to the race even opened.

  24. #124
    Resident curmudgeon bronze trophy gary.turner's Avatar
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    There is a reason for center, font, and all the other presentational elements and attributes being deprecated, and no longer a part of html. From all the various heavens, Valhallas, Olympias, and paradises, the many and sundry gods declared the intermixing of structure and presentation to be an abomination in their sight.

    So go and sin no more, or become obdurate. Either way, the gods have spoken.

    Can we kill this thread dead? How many times can the same arguments be repeated over and over again? It is time to move it to the Department of Redundant Redundancies Department.

    cheers,

    gary
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    designer to make it slow, confusing, and painful to use.

    Simple minded html & css demos and tutorials

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary.turner View Post
    How many times can the same arguments be repeated over and over again?
    The argument will be repeated time and time again as people who actually have pride in their work, bother actually LEARNING rules, comprehend the intent and purpose of HTML/CSS and understand the guidelines for things like accessibility continue to clash with those who just sleaze along vomiting up code any old way like it was still 1997.


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