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  1. #1
    not tyrael anymore.. Manores's Avatar
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    Want to learn about Document Object Model (DOM)

    Hi all

    I want to learn about Document Object Model and at the moment I'm trying to find some resources using Google.

    If any of you can recommend me a nice reference site, I will be happy..

    Thanks in advance
    Nanaman never dies!
    Once I was Tyrael!

    I wish Wayne also could change my whole life as he did with my nick and made me a rally driver!

  2. #2
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Well i know the dom fairly inside out.

    I learnt it all from usage.

    My main stage of reference is:

    msdn.microsoft.com/library

    then in the contents frame:

    Web Development -> HTML & Dynamaic HTML -> SDK Documentation -> Reference

    There you'll find the objects, methods, events and property that specify the "outer extent" core of the dom.

    If I've misread you and you actually REALLY want to know the inner core of the DOM then you'll need to go to
    www.w3.org - BUT - i don't think this is what you're looking for.. since this is WAY beyond what most people
    here know - and if you wanted that you wouldn't have
    to ask here for it

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  3. #3
    not tyrael anymore.. Manores's Avatar
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    Hi Flawless_koder

    No, you did not misundertand me. I am in need of just what you described at the beginning. I was looking at w3schools. I'll try the address you provided then..

    thank you for your time

    Nanaman never dies!
    Once I was Tyrael!

    I wish Wayne also could change my whole life as he did with my nick and made me a rally driver!

  4. #4
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    That's ok.

    Good luck - and just ask if you need anything else,
    or anything more specific!

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  5. #5
    not tyrael anymore.. Manores's Avatar
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    Thanks Flawless!

    If I can see this page of Microsoft's, i may go further and ask you questions.

    Ages have passed and the page has not been downloaded. What are they doing, composing a new page at each request?

    Nanaman never dies!
    Once I was Tyrael!

    I wish Wayne also could change my whole life as he did with my nick and made me a rally driver!

  6. #6
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    No - the page has a large table of contents.

    it takes two seconds to load here sometimes on our connnection.

    What speed connection are you on - 56kb/s ?

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  7. #7
    not tyrael anymore.. Manores's Avatar
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    No - cable; but it sometimes get worse than my 56kB/s connection at home



    poor service..
    Nanaman never dies!
    Once I was Tyrael!

    I wish Wayne also could change my whole life as he did with my nick and made me a rally driver!

  8. #8
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    OUCH!!!

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  9. #9
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  10. #10
    SitePoint Guru bronze trophy blufive's Avatar
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    see also:
    http://www.mozilla.org/docs/dom/domref/

    Mozilla (the web browser) is also worth mentioning for its DOM Inspector (tools->web development->DOM inspector, or ctrl-shift-I), which allows you to browse the DOM of any web page, giving you the browser's-eye view of the HTML/CSS.

    I'll also add my voice to shoop's recommendation of the articles over at www.scottandrew.com

  11. #11
    The doctor is in... silver trophy MarcusJT's Avatar
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    Here's a fantastic DOM browser that can be used in IE5+ & NS6+
    http://dl.alphaworks.ibm.com/technol...dombrowser.zip

    Also, if you download the "IE5 Web Developer Accessories" pack from Microsoft (fine for IE6 too), you will find that also includes a (less sophisticated) DOM browser too.
    MarcusJT
    - former ASP web developer / former SPF "ASP Guru"
    - *very* old blog with some useful ASP code

    - Please think, Google, and search these forums before posting!

  12. #12
    not tyrael anymore.. Manores's Avatar
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    Hi - thanks for the help.. but..

    what do you mean by a DOM browser?
    Nanaman never dies!
    Once I was Tyrael!

    I wish Wayne also could change my whole life as he did with my nick and made me a rally driver!

  13. #13
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Yeah - i'm a bit confused by that too.


    explain further mate @ Marco

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  14. #14
    The doctor is in... silver trophy MarcusJT's Avatar
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    The same as Mozilla's "DOM Inspector", but VERY powerful indeed. It's a tiny download, so just try it!

    Suck it and see!
    (old Rennie's advert catchphrase, in case you were wondering)
    MarcusJT
    - former ASP web developer / former SPF "ASP Guru"
    - *very* old blog with some useful ASP code

    - Please think, Google, and search these forums before posting!

  15. #15
    JavaScript Guru (Big Ego) Arielladog's Avatar
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    Oh goody, I get to recommend my own tutorial:

    www.pageresource.com/dhtml/ryan/

    THe last page deals with DOM. It really is pretty simple to understand and gets to some pretty complex features in the end.

    Also:

    http://www.entenman.net/links/web/

    The page is ugly, but the links are good.

    aDog

  16. #16
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Thanks @ Ariella - coz i don't know anything about the DOM.


    Marco - I downloaded it.

    Still don't see the point in it though, for me.

    I guess it must be useful for people that don't know
    the dom inside out, though - and i mean really useful!

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  17. #17
    The doctor is in... silver trophy MarcusJT's Avatar
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    I don't use it to learn anything about the DOM - I primarily use it for debugging!

    However, those not so familiar with the DOM will probably find it interesting to explore the properties of all the objects and collections that are contained within. Hands-on exploration is always a good way to learn about something - in my book anyway!
    MarcusJT
    - former ASP web developer / former SPF "ASP Guru"
    - *very* old blog with some useful ASP code

    - Please think, Google, and search these forums before posting!

  18. #18
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    ? Debugging ?

    What kind of debugging....

    I normally find debugging fairly swift in browser environments, even in our largest
    and most complex internet applications you can use the
    MS script debugger to find faults in any clientside scripts
    in seconds if you don't see them yourself... and
    i'm not sure what kind of other errors you'd be encountering?

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  19. #19
    Web-coding NINJA! silver trophy beetle's Avatar
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    beetle a.k.a. Peter Bailey
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  20. #20
    JavaScript Guru (Big Ego) Arielladog's Avatar
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    Originally posted by beetle
    All U need is MSDN
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de.../dhtmlrefs.asp
    For IE DOM, but what about the REAL DOM, W3C DOM? SImilarities...yes, but how can you program correctly without knowing the differences? Please don't leave out Netscape users (at least Mozilla/NS 6+ users).

    aDog

  21. #21
    Web-coding NINJA! silver trophy beetle's Avatar
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    Ah, sorry. I'm one of those people who has a major beef with the inferiority of the NS DOM, as well as NS's CSS support, and HTML rendering, and just about everything else. It just does so many things wrong (I have ZERO knowledge about NS6, and don't want it, so if it's better, I'd just rather not know) Netscape has alot of other stuff going for them. They should stop wasting decent manpower on their crappy browser that garners only twice the market share as search engine spiders and bots combined.

    Competitve browsers today is stupidity. Back when both NS and MS charged $$$ for their product, it made sense, because the competition was about securing the sales dollars. But now that they are both free...why the competition? The W3C is great, but they are so slow to implement new features into standards. I know that you can't get IE on Linux, but one ofthe browsers you can (Kommander?) is better than NS on Linux from a standpoint of rendering accuracy and CSS support. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no Microsoft advocate, and I ain't Bill Gates' nephew, but browser software is one arena where MS just has it right. They develop new and useful objects into their DOM, add cool features to CSS (like DHTML Behaviors), and powerful tools for true DHTML (like Dynamic Expressions and Visual filters) And they provide excellent support for all of it via MSDN. I have yet to find a better reference for anything (PHP, SQL, etc) that is as comprehensive as the DHTML reference I linked to above.

    </rant>
    beetle a.k.a. Peter Bailey
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by beetle
    Ah, sorry. I'm one of those people who has a major beef with the inferiority of the NS DOM, as well as NS's CSS support, and HTML rendering, and just about everything else. It just does so many things wrong (I have ZERO knowledge about NS6, and don't want it, so if it's better, I'd just rather not know)
    Adog pointed me to this thread. Do you have any clue what you just said? You just stated that support for DOM1, most of DOM2, and even a DOM3 interface, the best support for CSS1 and CSS2 anywhere, CSS3 selectors, and the only browser other than Amaya to support XHTML 1.1 is worse than IE, which supports DOM1, some CSS2 (not the useful parts), and only XHTML 1.0 transitional?

    Have you ever used any Gecko-based browser? (You admitted to never using NS6). If you are basing your assumptions on the current "Netscape" - you are so wrong it isn't even funny. I can understand you though if you are thinking about NS4. Try NS7, or grab the latest Mozilla build from www.mozilla.org.

    The W3C is great, but they are so slow to implement new features into standards.
    Existing standards aren't modified, just added to. IE is slow to implement useful web standards. W3C isn't slow to implement useful and powerful ones. MathML, SVG, XLink, XSLT, etc etc.

    I know that you can't get IE on Linux, but one ofthe browsers you can (Kommander?) is better than NS on Linux from a standpoint of rendering accuracy and CSS support.
    How can you say that when you've never even used Konqueror? It is nice, but I even prefer IE to it, which says A LOT.

    They develop new and useful objects into their DOM, add cool features to CSS (like DHTML Behaviors), and powerful tools for true DHTML (like Dynamic Expressions and Visual filters)
    At the cost of spending time implemented standards. DHTML behaviors are nice, and W3C currently has no "standard" equivalent. The CSS3 Behavoral Extensions module should fix that though. There are better alternatives to behaviors though. Gecko (NS6+, Mozilla, Galeon, K-meleon, and Beonex to name some browsers) support XBL (eXtensible Binding Language), which is a W3C Note and is setup in a superior way than behaviors. The only thing really missing from XBL (bugs - specs define them, but currently aren't implemented) are a global namespace, and the ability to dynamically remove a binding efficiently.

    And they provide excellent support for all of it via MSDN. I have yet to find a better reference for anything (PHP, SQL, etc) that is as comprehensive as the DHTML reference I linked to above.
    MSDN is nice, I'll be the first to admit it.

    I'm sorry if I sounded furious, or acted like a troll, but it is because of people with the exact mindset of yours that the web is in such sorry shape. If you don't use IE on Windows, you are left out of too much. Considering IE on Windows is one of the poorest browser/platforms you can choose, that says something.
    Jason - Contact Me
    Supermoderator @ CodingForums

  23. #23
    Web-coding NINJA! silver trophy beetle's Avatar
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    Hey, no ill will. All in the name of good controversy! Yes, I can only base my knowledge off my personal experiences and those related to me by people I trust...and quite frankly don't have the time to learn. I think my point is best made by this fact: Look at hom many current posts in this forum alone deal with NS-only problems. Heres a link with some recent data to back me up. As you can see, almost half of Netscape users still use 4.x

    I appreciate your knowledge and position, and would like to learn more about Gecko-based browsers, but until their market-share increases, it's not going to do me much good. Most of the sites I work on are for small/medium sized business, and they simply do not have the budget/concern for developing what should be 1 website for multiple platforms. ("Yes Mr. Johnson, we can get you an 8% larger audience with an extra 40% investment in time and money.") Hence the source of my frustration, because Mr. Johnson's Mom or somebody else he knows uses Netscape, but he doesn't want to pay to have every line of code typed twice (and I don't blame him) It may be good for competition and development, but it's bad news for us freelancers who are unfortunate to live in an area where the market won't support bloated development costs.

    </rant:again>
    Last edited by beetle; Jul 19, 2002 at 21:26.
    beetle a.k.a. Peter Bailey
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  24. #24
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    Originally posted by beetle
    he doesn't want to pay to have every line of code typed twice (and I don't blame him) It may be good for competition and development, but it's bad news for us freelancers who are unfortunate to live in an area where the market won't support bloated development costs.
    This is why web standards are NECESSARY. Think about this for a moment. W3C defines free, open, well-documented specifications for browsers to implement. Often times giving suggestions to user agents on how to implement them directly in the document. (Read CSS3 Color Module for an example of HSL, and W3C providing code to help).

    With that established, any browser can come along and view pages coded to web standards fine.

    I could be using Mozilla, you IE, someone Opera, someone else, Konqueror, and someone UnreleasedFictionBrowser 2.0. As long as these browsers implemented web standards, guess what? Your code will only be written once, and rendered identically across all compliant browsers and platforms.

    If IE better supported web standards, nobody would be complaining that Gecko doesn't support IE-only code. Does the term "IE-only" have any meaning to people who complain? It is easier for everyone (including Microsoft) to implement already specified and well defined specs, rather than create their own, which leads me to believe [b]Microsoft is purposely making the developer's life harder[b]. (Of course, by doing this they are locking you into proprietary implementations - IE - as the only resort for ease.)

    None of that bs about IE makes colding pages easier applies here either. Sloppy coding is bad, encouraging sloppy coding is worse. In the end, IE only makes your life harder.
    Jason - Contact Me
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  25. #25
    Web-coding NINJA! silver trophy beetle's Avatar
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    I agree with everything you say save one:
    If IE better supported web standards
    I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure IE does support all the web standards (if not, please cordially point me to someplace where I can read what they don't, so I'll know). I think what you are trying to say is that they should support the standards and ONLY the standards. This goes back to what I said a couple posts ago....competition has made things worse in this arena. Microsoft for some reason feels the need to develop and support a whole slew of additional features? Why? I'm not sure. Maybe they think the standard sucks. Maybe they'd rather be in control of the standards like they are with everything else. All I can say is that the numbers speak and I must listen. If not, I cannot always deliver to clients' and their clients' expectations. (In other words, becuase I don't think anyone here gets it yet, I'm looking at this subject from business standpoint, not a preference standpoint) Like a politician (please, no dirty politician references/jokes) I must speak for the opinion of my public, and my public has spoken. It uses IE. Oh, and don't talk to me about MathML and XSLT, because last time I checked, this was a DHTML/javascript forum, not a W3C recommendations forum

    </rant>
    <flame: on>
    beetle a.k.a. Peter Bailey
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