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  1. #51
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Oooh, what's the meaning of life?!

    It's an area in the staff-only forums where deleted threads and posts are kept. No posts are ever deleted, it's just that you aren't allowed to see posts in staff forums, so it looks like they are deleted.
    Digital Hitman, netmobs
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  2. #52
    SitePoint Addict
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    :| oh...

    I think, aside from "bad" wording or seriously offensive language, they should let us see it... curiosity maybe....
    Luis

  3. #53
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    hehe, it's not as interesting as you'd think. Generally just lots of spam
    Digital Hitman, netmobs
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  4. #54
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Yep.

    </insanity>

  5. #55
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Basically, it went more or less like all trolling threads go. Troll makes makes controversial claims, often without or with weak references to back it up. The rest of the participants bite the flamebait, and refute the claims. If references were provided in the refute, those references are attacked by the troll, in most cases without counter-proof. In cases where the controversial claims are refuted beyond doubt, new baseless claims are invented. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    (the interesting highlights of this particular one can be found in Jeremys blog)
    Mattias Johansson
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  6. #56
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    Hi,

    I can not understand how some people here have reached the result that ASP.NET is faster? I really do not understand.

    A while ago I created an empty ASP.NET Web Application and stress tested it with "Microsoft Application Center Test".

    I also ran the test on a PHP Application (a login form). (On the same windows computer. Also pay attention that PHP is slower on windows in comparison to linux on the same hardware).

    Results with 100 concurrent users:

    PHP: almost all of the connections worked well with about 60 requests/second. Response time was about 0.2 seconds in avg.

    ASP.NET: 80-81 out of 100 gave socket errors. Actually only 19 of the visitors were able to see pages (with very slow response time).

    Then how folks tell ASP.NET is faster?

    Let me mention that I have passed my MCAD exams. Let me also mention that I use ASP.NET for enterprise applications but I always use PHP for applications which normal users with limited budget will use.

    Mac

  7. #57
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Hmmm. While I'm all and open for PHP being faster (speed really never mattered too much to me, as they are both so fast) those results just seems wierd. The difference is too big. Care to post the code you used, just for kicks?

    edit: Also, did you run the PHP on Apache or IIS? If you ran it on Apache, it's very possible that you ended up testing Apache vs. IIS instead. Also, did you use IIS6 or IIS5?
    Mattias Johansson
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  8. #58
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    Also, was it Jam or Peanut butter you put on your toast ??

    Like does it really matter huh ?

  9. #59
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    Hello

    Yes, I forgot to say it. I run PHP on a Apache 1.3 and PHP as a Module (both of them , last versions).

    IIS is IIS 5.0 on a windows 2000 Pro.

    PHP Code's structure is mentioned here:

    http://programmernet.org/articles/Articlea3-1-1.html

    Regards,
    Mac

  10. #60
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Actually, my question would be whether you ran the ASP.NET page once through to compile it first? Otherwise yes, you'd get socket errors while the first request compiles.

    Run PHP as a module on IIS, compile your ASP.NET page and give it another go. I'd be interested to see the results. I'd also love to see perfmon info for it
    Digital Hitman, netmobs
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  11. #61
    SitePoint Guru toasti's Avatar
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    i might be talking out of place here, but a note on compiling. to my understanding, compiling is the process whereby 'human' programming code is translated into machine byte code (1's and 0's).

    I think of java as a language which is properly compiled: try opening a compiled java .class file with notepad and try read it! now try the same with an .aspx or .php file. to me that suggests that .aspx/.php is not compiled (but im sure it is more complicated than that).

    in my opinion, neither language is actually better, but i think where ASP.NET will win is its integration with MS SQL Server, against php's natural wedding to MySQL (while both can use other databases, there are the databases for which both languages are optimized). I often find workin with MySQL fairly painful in comparison with SQL Server!

    with regard to the OOPness of ASP.NET, i tend to agree with Harry: for most (or at least a lot of) web development OOP is overkill.

    Also if we are talking purely about speed, OOP is slower (i might be wrong here). ultimately your fastest, most accessible to search engines page will be simple HTML! PHP allows flexibility in this regard, as you are less tied into the OOP framework, especially if you are using MS Vis Studio where there are just classes being declared willy nilly! (dont get me wrong here, im a big fan of OOP - but there is a trade-off between efficiency and neatness/quality of code...ironically)

    which brings me to my next point. php allows for a good deal more control. While MS tools (such as MS Vis Studio) are excellent when it comes to rapidly developing enterprise solutions. it worries me that people can often create such large scale solutoins while actually knowing very little code! to my mind (and this happens a lot with MS tools) too much happens in the background without you knowing! Although we have to give them credit, cause they do make it very easy to build complex and elegant applications quite easily. in many ways, ASP.NET is too tied into Microsoft IDE's.

    All in all, i dont think either is inherantly better. a lot of what makes a language 'better' is its popularity. php has a large comunity support, and ASP.NET has massive corporate funding! so eitherway, i dont think either will dissappear. at the moment the hype is all ASP, but thats cause it is (relitively new). when php 5 comes out, i suspect we may find that php again becomes the buzz word. I dont think it would hurt any of us to know both, and if possible become fluent in both too. (i know bith harryf and M.johanssen are - definately more so than me!) These languages are both well suited to many similar solutions and both respectively better suited to various different situations.

    Personally i prefer php. i just find it an incredibly user friendly language which is very scalable for creating simple as well as more complicted solutoins whereas i suspect that .NET is more suited to complex solutions.

    ...but thats just my opinion...and it is probibly wrong

  12. #62
    SitePoint Guru toasti's Avatar
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    oops. didnt read to the end of the thread...im still on page one. my bad.

  13. #63
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    The difference in asp.net and php has nothing to do with speed or compilation (tho it is a very useful feature to have).

    Firstly, you are comparing a framework (.NET) with a language (php)
    The main thing is that PHP doesn't have a framework tied to it. Sure some exist, but most people don't even know to look for these because they don't know any even exist for php.

    The .NET framework does make it more natural to code OOP whereas PHP makes it more natural to code proceedurally. It also does alot of things naturally that you have to learn on top of php when learning to use it, like logic/display seperation. And most php developers don't know about the zend accelerator either. So for the regular/non-advanced users, ASP.NET is alot faster.

    The more natural OOP, automatic seperation of logic/display, speed and more modules/libraries, built in validators, option to do things client or server validation, as well as datasets and so on, makes development using the .NET framework faster and very nice to work with.

    The whole point of software dev is to use tools that exist to go further than before. With php everyone who uses it must learn all the stuff that everyone else learns before getting into decent development and takes along time to play catchup before doing any real new developement. Why? Woudln't it be nice if to deliver a project you could spend most of your time designing it, and only around 25% coding to get it out the door? Well this is the case if you use tools like ASP.NET have.



    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    This reflects many PHP guys opinions on ASP. So many people automatically put off Microsoft technologies before even trying them.
    I can't agree more. Just because this is a php forum doesn't mean you should close your mind to other possibilities. That will lead to you not being objective, and ultimately destroy your ability to learn new and interesting concepts.

  14. #64
    SitePoint Zealot mr_jeep's Avatar
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    PHP VS ASP.NET is a pointless debate. Rare are the people who are truely neutral and it always end up in a fight.

    I think we should finally agree thant both language are good and fast and stop this endless flamewar. I think both of these languages could learn from each others instead of flaming each other...

    Anyway, personnally, I use php because I know this language very well. However, I'd be glad to learn ASP.NET (if I had more time) because this looks very interesting. A friend showed me some asp.net features and I can truly say they are great. MS ingeneers did a great job abstracting the "web conception model"

    Anyway, both are great languages, none better than the other so just stick with the one ur best at it and stop flaming for no reasons.

    My 2 cents
    I'd appreciate if you would tell me if something I wrote is spelled wrong

  15. #65
    32,817 silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Flamewar?
    Digital Hitman, netmobs
    Personal blog: Ensight
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  16. #66
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    flamewar
    n.

    An exchange of online hostilities between two or more participants in an Internet discussion

  17. #67
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    We're getting close to it, at any rate...

  18. #68
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    Why I choose PHP

    I don't think we can compare asp.net and php since asp.net is a framework and php a programming language.

    Anyway, I can compare few things.

    - ASP.NET WEBFORM use HTML 4.0 with ugly Javascript everywhere. Better use PHP and code valid xhtml page with my own Javascript.
    - PHP is faster since there is a lot more code to run through to execute the same ASP page than you have to execute in the PHP engine for an equivalent PHP page.
    - PHP runs on Linux with Apache. ASP.NET doesnt.
    - I hate MS SQL SERVER. Expensive and slow. I love MySQL. Fast and opensource.
    - I hate IIS. Not secure and slow; Love Apache. Great piece of software.
    - Linux is more secure than Windows NT. Linux does not need Anti-virus. Linux does not need to reboot every month. I can manage my linux box with SSH, simple and efficient. Termserv is not that good and GUI is not very usefull on a server, better use command-line;
    - I hate Windows XP. I prefer KDE and Linux for my desktop;
    - I hate ODBC. I love the new ext/mysqli. This rocks!
    - I hate MS tools. I use SSH, CVS, CERVISA and VI everyday.
    - Smarty is a nice templating language.
    - I can use JAVA classes within PHP.
    - PHP can interact with other languages, using its Java, Perl, Python, FFI and Mono Connections.
    - I love .NET (yes, you read right). But I will use it only if it is free (Mono).

    I had to choose between asp.net and PHP 5 for a big, big webapplication. I use only Object Oriented programming (everything is a class, starting from a inputbox to a form or and image). So far, PHP5 (and MySQL 4.1/Apache2) offers exceptional performance for my web application. I will switch to .NET when Mono 1.0 will be stable, if its faster.

    Anyway, this forum use PHP and it seems to me that Sitepoint is quite fast and responsive. PHP gets the job done, n'êtes vous pas d'accord?

    BTW you can use Kdevelopt with PHP. Auto-completion of classes, integrated with CVS, great IDE. YOU DONT NEED IE/WINDOWS/OUTLOOK AND NORTON ANTIVIRUS TO LIVE. You can live without Microsoft and try Linux/Firefox/thunderbird or some other great Opensource tools.

    Frank,

  19. #69
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Oh my god. And I just cleaned up that other thread.
    Mattias Johansson
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  20. #70
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    Egh.

  21. #71
    SitePoint Zealot bronze trophy
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    I think it's rather pointless to debate language vs. language.

    Is C# better than Java?
    Is PHP better than ASP.NET?
    Is Perl better than Python?
    Is Visual Basic/Basic better than Delphi/Pascal?

    Before you spend too much time trying to decide, let me give you a hint:
    No!
    And the answer is also No! for the other way around.

    There's this little thing called "The right tools for the right project", which I live by when developing.
    It makes no sense to choose one (or more, depending on language type) language and stick with it come hell or high-water.
    If your client wants to deploy the Web Application you're tasked with building on a GNU/Linux webserver, you should most definately not be using ASP.NET to build it.
    If you need to implement a business logic module written in C# it's definately not a good idea to write your Web Application in PHP.

    All languages, even Fortran and COBOL, have their strengths and their weaknesses. All languages are useful for something, so I say don't limit yourself.

    If the project allows you to choose a language freely, that is, you have no limitations put on you by the client or the design specification, then you should go with the language that feels best for you. I prefer the syntax of PHP over the syntax of ASP.NET, so if I'm building just a simple Web Application I stick with PHP where applicable.
    If there is a way to overcome the suffering, there is no need to worry; if there is no way to overcome the suffering, there is no point to worry.
    - Shantideva

  22. #72
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTottE
    I prefer the syntax of PHP over the syntax of ASP.NET, so if I'm building just a simple Web Application I stick with PHP where applicable.
    <whisper>ASP.NET is not a language, just a (big) bunch of classes, and as such has no syntax.</whisper>
    Mattias Johansson
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  23. #73
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    <whisper>ASP.NET is not a language, just a (big) bunch of classes, and as such has no syntax.</whisper>
    <whisper ever so softly>Programming languages are built from semantics, syntaxes are afterthoughts - CLR is a language - don't believe the hype</whisper ever so softly>

    yours, Marcus

    p.s. Can we move this thread into the main PHP forum. The advanced forum has traditionally been free of advocacy junk.
    Marcus Baker
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  24. #74
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    Hi...

    <whisper ever so softly>Programming languages are built from semantics, syntaxes are afterthoughts - CLR is a language - don't believe the hype</whisper ever so softly>
    You are confusing ASP.NET with .NET. ASP.NET is a subset of .NET, and are just classes, nothing else.
    Mattias Johansson
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  25. #75
    SitePoint Zealot bronze trophy
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    As far as I know, ASP.NET is still the same as ASP on the syntax/language front (JScript, VBScript), you can't write C# in ASP.NET for instance?
    That is, in the actual ASP.NET code/pages. I'm well aware that you can write modules in any .NET language and use these through ASP.NET.

    And, even though it's just "a big bunch of classes", you still need to implement the classes somehow.
    Implement a class without using any syntax, and I'll buy you a cookie
    If there is a way to overcome the suffering, there is no need to worry; if there is no way to overcome the suffering, there is no point to worry.
    - Shantideva


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