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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiberianHuskey View Post
    there is no steadfast proof that it will land you a good position the same can be said that if you don't have a degree that it won't land you a Job.
    Seriously?

    http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

    And that only counts the people in each category who are part of the labour force (actively working or looking for work). Considering the fact that the percentages in the labour force go WAY up based on education level and the differences would be even more pronounced if that wasn't controlled for.

    For any individual person is a degree a guarantee of a job, or the lack of a degree a guarantee of unemployment? Of course not, but the numbers as a whole speak for themselves quite clearly.

    There is so much evidence pointing towards how a degree is becoming like 'paper money' that it's just society slumber that accepts it as the norm but that is changing.
    Feel free to point out some of this evidence.

    I see it as the complete opposite, a college diploma is the new high school diploma, if you don't have one most people are are not going to get very far in life financially when companies can hire people just as educated as they are in other countries at 1/10th the cost to do the same work. Why would I hire someone for unskilled labour that doesn't require a degree when I could hire someone with the same skill set from India, Pakistan, Philippines, or Eastern Europe to do it for the fraction of the cost?

    There is a burgeoning gap between rich and poor, educated and not, and no one wants to be on the wrong side of that.

    But enjoy your grapes Mr Fox.

  2. #27
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    Seriously?

    http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

    And that only counts the people in each category who are part of the labour force (actively working or looking for work). Considering the fact that the percentages in the labour force go WAY up based on education level and the differences would be even more pronounced if that wasn't controlled for.

    For any individual person is a degree a guarantee of a job, or the lack of a degree a guarantee of unemployment? Of course not, but the numbers as a whole speak for themselves quite clearly.
    Where is the Government getting those numbers from, how many are educated who are not actively looking for employment, who have given up ? How many schools out there specifically private schools are poping up like carrots guaranteeing degrees in the chosen profession only to take a Job from someone just because they have major debts to pay off and feel they are entitled it, if they are going to be making good money why take from someone else? Government numbers can be altered they are the government and people put way to much faith in the government and what statistics they fire out. Also the US government is on the financial edge recent US Unemployment numbers put the US at 9.8% but in reality it's roughly around 16% those are numbers found during the great depression which is also effecting those walking out of college/university.

    I see it as the complete opposite, a college diploma is the new high school diploma, if you don't have one most people are are not going to get very far in life financially when companies can hire people just as educated as they are in other countries at 1/10th the cost to do the same work. Why would I hire someone for unskilled labor that doesn't require a degree when I could hire someone with the same skill set from India, Pakistan, Philippines, or Eastern Europe to do it for the fraction of the cost?
    Reality is that regardless a college diploma or not both are going down the same road, as the gap of the rich and poor increase so does the thousands walking in and out of post-secondary schools it's a revolving door where when you're finished they the 'leave it to beaver' farewell, heres your paper with a nice finishing touch and hopefully you find your way. Many go to school because they don't know what they will do, so what is everyone else doing "going to school".

    Why would I hire someone for unskilled labor that doesn't require a degree when I could hire someone with the same skill set from India, Pakistan, Philippines, or Eastern Europe to do it for the fraction of the cost?
    Simply to create Jobs ! More work goes overseas the worse it's going to get here, it's like when Nike told US workers they don't want to make shoes, of course Americans want to make shoes it's Nike that doesn't want Americans to make shoes at $18 Hr that would be down right foolish! Brining work overseas has nothing to do with education it has to do with Money and Corporate America saving money. Your iPad and iPhone are created by happy workers just waiting to come home and get out of it.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tke71709 View Post
    I see it as the complete opposite, a college diploma is the new high school diploma, if you don't have one most people are are not going to get very far in life financially when companies can hire people just as educated as they are in other countries at 1/10th the cost to do the same work. Why would I hire someone for unskilled labour that doesn't require a degree when I could hire someone with the same skill set from India, Pakistan, Philippines, or Eastern Europe to do it for the fraction of the cost?
    Logically, this is the true state of employment in the western world today.

    However, I've found that outsourcing is dying out rather quickly due to a lack of quality being produced. Don't get me wrong, there are some fantastic developers out there in Eastern Europe, India and elsewhere, but people don't want to pay for quality.

    In general employment, people are far happier today than a few years ago to hire recent graduates for jobs that would be considered entry-level to many. The reason for this is that students are graduating in record numbers and there's still a lot of easy work out there. Now, if they can land a graduate, why would they look towards someone without a degree with experience? Hiring graduates has become the new outsourcing to many small-to-medium companies out there, and at the moment universities are desperate to get their graduates in full-time employment to boost their own employment statistics.

    Seriously, SiberianHuskey. tke71709 is 100% correct in what he says. It's a crappy system, but employers want graduates far more than they want people without jobs.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiberianHuskey View Post
    Where is the Government getting those numbers from, how many are educated who are not actively looking for employment, who have given up ?
    I already addresses that in my statement above, the % that gives up is MUCH MUCH lower the more education that you get.

    Also from your link above

    No college hurts. The worst income erosion happened among men with only high school diplomas: They've lost 31% in earnings over 20 years (from $53,395 to $37,107).
    So no degree = less money and less likelihood of ever finding a job (e.g. giving up)

    How many schools out there specifically private schools are poping up like carrots guaranteeing degrees in the chosen profession only to take a Job from someone just because they have major debts to pay off and feel they are entitled it, if they are going to be making good money why take from someone else?
    And again the facts from your own links support the fact that higher education = more work

    There's a good chance that the server pouring your coffee and the parking attendant valeting your car has a bachelor's degree, or even a doctoral degree.
    As I stated college is the new high school, so you better have some higher education if you want to get a job, even if it's as a valet.

    The unemployment rate for college graduates is 5 percent, which is less than half of the 10.5 percent rate for high school grads.
    As much as I enjoy the human interest story about this poor woman who can't find work, do you really think she would be more likely to find work if she didn't have a degree?

    Government numbers can be altered they are the government and people put way to much faith in the government and what statistics they fire out.
    Are you working? Y/N
    If N, are you currently looking for work? Y/N
    If Y, how much did you make last year?
    Select your level of education.

    It's pretty straightforward, not rocket science.

    recent US Unemployment numbers put the US at 9.8% but in reality it's roughly around 16% those are numbers found during the great depression which is also effecting those walking out of college/university.
    But again, not as badly which is the entire point. When times are tough, you have a much better chance of finding a job if you have an education.

    Reality is that regardless a college diploma or not both are going down the same road, as the gap of the rich and poor increase so does the thousands walking in and out of post-secondary schools it's a revolving door where when you're finished they the 'leave it to beaver' farewell, heres your paper with a nice finishing touch and hopefully you find your way.
    But you have a much greater chance of being on the wrong end without a piece of paper.

    [quote]
    Many go to school because they don't know what they will do, so what is everyone else doing "going to school".

    Many go to school because they realize that they need a piece of paper to find work, or because they don't know what they want to do with their lives (did any of us at 19?), or because they're postponing their entry into the world of work until things improve. All legitimate reasons to do so so long as they understand the consequences of their actions.

    Brining work overseas has nothing to do with education it has to do with Money and Corporate America saving money.
    And again, you make my point for me. That is the reality, unskilled labour (done by people without college degrees) can be done anywhere in the world, and generally cheaper than it can be done in the USA/Canada so you better get a degree if you want to find a job.

    Your iPad and iPhone are created by happy workers just waiting to come home and get out of it.
    And again, what does this have to do with the discussion? 1) This is unskilled labour, so maybe if they got better educations and thus better jobs they would be happier and 2) This is another media story blown out of proportion, the suicide rate for employees at that factory is no higher than the general suicide rate in China. It just makes the news because they built stuff for Apple.

  5. #30
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    Regardless there is and continues to be an unbalance. Obviously this is one sided that a degree is the end all, be all. Also even with a degree what kind of 'Job' does one get !?!?! As I did state. The employment figures and fact that those who have a degree got completely ignored, being un-educated does not mean you should work in horrible conditions, infact I know of educated who work in mediocre working conditions, and I heard of some who have gone down the tolet, I suppose they deserve it too.

    TKE you're just throwing figures around that a degree is going to make life wonderful and for those that don't, you have no compassion for and you know there are consequences in society with that. The world is not black and white there are many shades of gray. Having a degree in some fields is necessary, doctor, nurse although I'm beginning to wonder about those professions and the quick solution to everyones problems with medications. Otherwise there are many professions that a degree is just a cash grab.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiberianHuskey View Post
    being un-educated does not mean you should work in horrible conditions, infact I know of educated who work in mediocre working conditions, and I heard of some who have gone down the tolet, I suppose they deserve it too.
    This thread has nothing to do with the ills of society, the original post had to do with what would be the best course of action for the OP, college, university or work.

    The stats clearly show that higher education is key to getting ahead regardless of your constantly shifting stands and diatribes about how society is now a days. I understand that you are frustrated at your inability to find work, but that doesn't make any of the points raised here any less valid.

    Also everything is relative, your horrible working conditions would be a godsend to a lot of people in developing countries.

    TKE you're just throwing figures around that a degree is going to make life wonderful and for those that don't, you have no compassion for and you know there are consequences in society with that.
    LOL again I say, seriously? There are lots of unemployed people with degrees, there are lots of unhappy people with degrees (but again less than those without). A degree isn't pixie dust, it's just a means to an end.

    The world is not black and white there are many shades of gray. Having a degree in some fields is necessary, doctor, nurse although I'm beginning to wonder about those professions and the quick solution to everyones problems with medications. Otherwise there are many professions that a degree is just a cash grab.
    Don't blame the doctors and nurses because they are victims of our society as much as everyone else. When people go to the doctor and get two options such as lose weight and exercise or take a pill, which one do you think people will take? The pill.

    Health professionals have been railing against obesity for years, yet people continue to eat poorly, binge on junk and get fat, what are they supposed to do about that? It's like people who get credit cards and then run them up until they can't afford them and then blame the credit card companies for giving them the cards in the first place.

    No one here is going to change how the world works but we all do have to live in that world so we better be willing to change how we work in it.

  7. #32
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    This thread has nothing to do with the ills of society, the original post had to do with what would be the best course of action for the OP, college, university or work.

    The stats clearly show that higher education is key to getting ahead regardless of your constantly shifting stands and diatribes about how society is now a days. I understand that you are frustrated at your inability to find work, but that doesn't make any of the points raised here any less valid.

    Also everything is relative, your horrible working conditions would be a godsend to a lot of people in developing countries.
    What about those who are older, who never got a education or maybe who lost there Job and feel at there age they will never get work. Most who are older realize they are not going to get most of the position that pay well, they just want a income that is acceptable. Society does play a role because one thing effects the other and governments are doing a awful job at managing it all.

    LOL again I say, seriously? There are lots of unemployed people with degrees, there are lots of unhappy people with degrees (but again less than those without). A degree isn't pixie dust, it's just a means to an end.
    What kind of end, a end to survive, a end of hopelessness ?
    Don't blame the doctors and nurses because they are victims of our society as much as everyone else. When people go to the doctor and get two options such as lose weight and exercise or take a pill, which one do you think people will take? The pill.
    True, but that is only because the doctor will push the pill on the patient because Big Pharma pushes the Doctors to sell the pills, in the end who looses the Patient, not to go off topic but in brief Drugs make more symptoms and problems, you can believe it or not !

    Health professionals have been railing against obesity for years, yet people continue to eat poorly, binge on junk and get fat, what are they supposed to do about that? It's like people who get credit cards and then run them up until they can't afford them and then blame the credit card companies for giving them the cards in the first place.
    That's why I said the problems are so big in society that it can't be labeled black or white, that is what people do to simplify it because they can't comprehend all of it whether they don't understand or don't want to.

    No one here is going to change how the world works but we all do have to live in that world so we better be willing to change how we work in it.
    Not all will, Rebels will always be they were in past and they are here now, and they will be in the future and even if they land them-self in hot water at times, somehow they survive or you can make your own choices and hope for the best.

  8. #33
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    SiberianHuskey, it's been an interesting conversation but seeing as you're not actually addressing anything related to the OP's question there really isn't much point to continuing it so let's just sum up the conclusions and end this thread.

    1) Would it be best to stay in school for ONE more year for the OP? YES, UNDOUBTEDLY!
    2) Do people without educations have a shittier life from an earnings perspective? Yes
    3) Is the world fair? No

    If you want to be a rebel and try to change the world then go for it, please feel free to post what organizations that you have worked with or what concrete actions you have taken in the last 6 months to change the world (hint: posting on a forum doesn't count).

  9. #34
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    And to that I say to the OP there is no guarantee !

  10. #35
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    Sigh...

    I'm sure the OP is not a moron, he never asked for a guarantee, he asked what we thought was best.

    Your opinion is apparently that not continuing his education would be best (or that the world isn't fair or something about changing the world works), mine is the opposite.

    I'll let you reply one last time so you can get in the last word as I am currently busy researching further educational opportunities (masters certificates in business analysis) while at my job that I just quit because a better one came along the other day (and yes I have a university degree and a college diploma without which none of this would be possible).

  11. #36
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    Best option is to find a job who'll also pay for your education. I was a full time student and full time intern/employee. It sounds pretty horrible but if you can manage your time well then it's easy. Work experience is #1.

  12. #37
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    True.

  13. #38
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sg707 View Post
    Best option is to find a job who'll also pay for your education. I was a full time student and full time intern/employee. It sounds pretty horrible but if you can manage your time well then it's easy. Work experience is #1.
    I tried that with my Masters and I absolutely hated my life during that time. It takes true dedication to mix full-time hours in such a way, and it'll kill all time you have for everything you take for granted in life, from watching your favourite TV shows to seeing friends, girlfriends and family.

    At degree level it's not as bad, but it's still a chore and if I had the money I'd definitely just stick to my studies full-time.


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