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  1. #76
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    Everything? What are they your lover? No one could agree on everything.
    That was implied towards the comments within this thread (which were well thought out and supportive of evidence). Though thanks for the straw-man argument. If you happen to investigate your claims further (beyond this thread) there's plenty of instances where I disagree with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    "accessible flash" is a flase statement but a means of communicating to try to get to a point, something you obviously could not see... and we all know why you can't see much
    So you're using a false statement to communicate a point? Ironic that you claim I can't see much, considering your total lack of foresight towards referencing accessibility. That and you reduce yourself to explaining things by using insults, incorrect information and illogical fallacies.

    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    "buzzwords like Flash and AJAX and jQuery", yeah Flash and jQuery aren't buzzwords love... might want to do a google to see what they are
    Sorry but Flash and jQuery are quickly becoming buzzwords, they have both become fashionable through abuse. jQuery is often used to smear all sorts of unnecessary effects and bloat on the page which requires scripting to be enabled for the website to even function, and Flash has become some sort of crazed solution for print designers to make a pixel perfect design which is so ingrained in the technology that it's demanded to be installed for loads of websites to even function on a basic layer. I think this dictionary definition of "buzzword" pretty much sums up Flash and jQuery entirely "Buzzword: a trendy word or phrase that is used more to impress than explain" <<< in the case of accessibility it's especially relevant in the case of Flash.

  2. #77
    SitePoint Addict NetNerd85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    You want to know what the future of the web looks like (if things carry on as they are)? A whole load of competing technologies equally discriminatory requiring certain browsers, certain users (with abilities) or certain extensions (required to be downloaded) all firing up around each other proclaiming themselves as some kind of solution (which gives some future scope to extending the web but just ends up complicating things further).
    That's your opinion unless you can tell the future, in which case give me the winning numbers!

    The web isn't some magical place (okay it was) where all your problems go away and you can dance with unicorns. It's a virtual world and the real world what it was based from is not perfect, the web will never be perfect just like the real one. There is not equality and never will be. I want equality, ask anyone that has slept in my bed (hope you take that the right way lol, might look bad for me!) Just because my favourite hamburger place doesn't sell chicken doesn't mean it's discriminatory, it just doesn't sell chicken or have a public toilet for me to use. I shall, go some where else. Another website / browser is another click away. Sure it would suck not being able to access my favourite site for free but oh well!

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    ...I'm totally glad that Apple have given Flash the finger, it's about time the people who wouldn't know what progressive enhancement means if it slapped them in the face got a sharp intake of reality and are being forced to push themselves onto another medium...
    I've only just recently gotten into Flash, mainly because of what Flex can offer. Flash is a gap bridging technology and when used well does a good job. It will be good when HTML5 and CSS3 get here... just waiting... waiting...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    ...Shaun said earlier that we're lucky that standards aren't law, personally I think they should be made like that...
    Why the law? Why should someone have to make their website accessible to everyone? It's not even appropriate that everyone go to a porn site, or a gaming website. If you have flippers for hands how can you play a PC game? In life we don't always get what we want (although some of us do and therefore don't see things straight) and sometimes you just have to take life a different way than you want. When I was younger I didn't ask to grow up very differantly than most people. I have 3 challenges that affect me every day. I don't call them disabilities. I call them challenges. Do I expect that people treat me differently? No, I have to try harder in life. Do I expect the law to change around me to suit me and my life? No, that would be selfish. Should the store Target make their website accessbile to all, yes, should they be forced, hell no! Should I make my gaming website available in german because most of the visitors are from germany, probably a good idea ey and I will. But no one will ever tell me how to run my website and who to offer the content to. That is my decision and no one will take that away.
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  3. #78
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    Alright, children. Play nice - all of you.

    I'd hate to have what was a good discussion end because some of you can't play without resorting to insults and namecalling. If you want people to respect your opinions, you need to show some respect as well.

    Passion is a good thing, but once it crosses the line where you can't respect that someone else has a differing point of view, that become fanatacism - and that's never a good thing.
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  4. #79
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    I couldn't agree w/ u more Dave. For me, I was defending for the people who have created great technologies like Flash/jquery/etc... I think it's brilliant. I try to stay calm but when these ...um.. people.. were throwing mud at them, I couldn't let it slide. Next time, I'll just read their posts as a entertainment value. Just not sure why I try to join...

  5. #80
    It's all Geek to me silver trophybronze trophy
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    Interesting discussion. I'm glad everyone is following various standards like writing in English and (more or less) following English grammar. Otherwise this discussion would be meaningless to most. Following standards doesn't mean you can't be creative and innovative; but it provides common reference points that give all these innovations a useful context.

  6. #81
    SitePoint Addict NetNerd85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    Interesting discussion. I'm glad everyone is following various standards like writing in English and (more or less) following English grammar. Otherwise this discussion would be meaningless to most. Following standards doesn't mean you can't be creative and innovative; but it provides common reference points that give all these innovations a useful context.
    , there is always google translator and if not, learn the language the content is written in

    This topic is full of Passion. James Allen wrote this about passion in his book From Passion to Peace:
    Passion is the archenemy of mankind, the slayer of happiness, the opposite and enemy of peace. From it precedes all that defiles and destroys. It is the source of misery, and the promulgator of mischief and disaster.
    Off Topic:

    I've filled up on my share of Anthony Robbins who also talks about Passion and obviously shows it in a positive light. So when I read James Allen's book I was confused, how can passion be bad? Raw Passion is blinding. Raw Passion loves to react. Raw Passion is full of energy but not always bad. I let raw passion out a few too many times here. Never really understood what James Allen meant until now. Glad I learnt something!
    a new day, a new beginning
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    Passion is a good thing, but once it crosses the line where you can't respect that someone else has a differing point of view, that become fanatacism - and that's never a good thing.
    This is not about passion. It's amusing, sure. But it's not about passion.

    Take a quick look at the websites of those who have contributed most volubly.

    Are they competent professionals? Do they have proven track records of success? Have they gained any sort of industry recognition? Well, take a look at their sites and decide your yourself.

    Oh, and when you're done, watch this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4

    When you begin to understand the underlying psychology, you'll see that not only does much of the nonsense on this thread have nothing to do with passion, it also has nothing to do with web standards or innovation.

    I suppose I could go on and say that factors such as underachievement and personal dissatisfaction play a part, but that could be risky since one of these so-called "moderators" might take offense and ban me.

  8. #83
    SitePoint Addict NetNerd85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew-bkk View Post
    This is not about passion. It's amusing, sure. But it's not about passion.

    Take a quick look at the websites of those who have contributed most volubly.

    Are they competent professionals? Do they have proven track records of success? Have they gained any sort of industry recognition? Well, take a look at their sites and decide your yourself.

    Oh, and when you're done, watch this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4

    When you begin to understand the underlying psychology, you'll see that not only does much of the nonsense on this thread have nothing to do with passion, it also has nothing to do with web standards or innovation.

    I suppose I could go on and say that factors such as underachievement and personal dissatisfaction play a part, but that could be risky since one of these so-called "moderators" might take offense and ban me.
    LMAO

    Love it.
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  9. #84
    SitePoint Guru Chroniclemaster1's Avatar
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    I think a lot of the conflict here can be put down to a simple difference in perspective and a lot of people who either don't see that there are two different domains we're talking about or who don't see the value in the other persons position. Put simply, Hewitt is one of these people, and in that respect he's making himself look pretty silly.

    Domain 1: Applications (and websites) ...
    Here is where there is clear value in having a wild west enthusiasm and philosophy. If you don't like what one application does, write one yourself that is completely different. Yes there are some interesting ways in which standards and guidelines can make your app more useful. (ranging from the official to those you personally impose on your application logic) It certainly is nice the way you can trade message invites over email and have them automatically post to your calendar program. That means that those apps all need public APIs that understand how to communicate with each other. However even here, using a good project architecture with well defined interfaces that hide the implementation inside, leaves you with virtually the same latitude to develop your application as you had before you needed to support that API

    Domain 2: Application Support
    In the 90s things were an absolute mess and developers had to build the identical website twice because we had two browser technologies. The companies which tried to survive in this climate mostly all died once financial analysts learned enough about what they were doing to say "That's stupid, I'm not giving you any capital to do the same thing over and over again." Web standards is about defining a consistent way that we can communicate between developers / content managers and the end user devices (of which browsers are perhaps the most important, but by no means the only consumer). An application or website cannot run without some level of standards. No one complains about HTTP or TCP/IP. Those are network engineering level web standards and they are ironclad. No one complains about being able to buy a piece of software and run it on a computer because the computer chips are designed to requisite standards. There would not be a web without a uniform communication standard that all computers can be made to understand. What we typically call Web Standards is one particular area of the standards that make the internet possible. We have people discussing how far you can push the envelope before you start compromising the quality of your product. However, basic web standards are not optional, if you choose to do something "innovative" but that no other computer on the planet understands, I think we can all agree that it's not really part of the internet. That's why Hewitt has to wait such a long time for innovation. He wants his favorite technologies to magically spread across the web, and he doesn't like how long it actually takes. I agree with him, but apparently unlike him, I'm not surprised that it hasn't actually happened.

    Alternatively, Mr. Hewitt may be moaning that this silly internet is designed so that people can use the damn thing. He may want a "developer's paradise" where there aren't standards and you don't care because you just want to get something new and if it doesn't work with any of your other programs, that OK. It just means you need to program an adapter onto the front of it and tada! If that's the case, I know a website he has apparently not heard of. SourceForge. In which case, he can download in one afternoon all the innovation his adapter writing skills can handle for years to come.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew-bkk View Post
    This is not about passion. It's amusing, sure. But it's not about passion.

    Take a quick look at the websites of those who have contributed most volubly.

    Are they competent professionals? Do they have proven track records of success? Have they gained any sort of industry recognition? Well, take a look at their sites and decide your yourself.

    Oh, and when you're done, watch this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4

    When you begin to understand the underlying psychology, you'll see that not only does much of the nonsense on this thread have nothing to do with passion, it also has nothing to do with web standards or innovation.

    I suppose I could go on and say that factors such as underachievement and personal dissatisfaction play a part, but that could be risky since one of these so-called "moderators" might take offense and ban me.
    Certainly the video is amusing but please, keep it on topic and be nice to each other

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    and (more or less) following English grammar
    Mostly less... the lack of determiners in many people's statements, much less phrases like:

    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    "accessible flash" is a flase statement but a means of communicating to try to get to a point
    Where the verb contradicts the conjunction... I'm still trying to figure out if that's supposed to be "is not" as the verb form or "and" as the conjunction.

    That anyone would even THINK to use the term "accessible flash" shows such a complete lack of understanding of what accessibility is... I lack the words in polite company to say what I'm thinking.

    Relying on a third party plugin is not accessibility. Relying on content screen readers cannot see is not accessibility. Bloating out content in a manner search engines cannot see and should not be wasting their time trying to see is not accessibility... using 1 megabyte of flash to do 20 lines of CSS' job is not accessibility. Breaking conventional site navigation like forward, back and middle clicking on links is NOT accessibility... Ignoring the WCAG guidelines is NOT accessibility.

    You guys have heard of the WCAG, right? When the W3C makes a recommendation, it kinda helps to listen.

    *Diggs out the Ouija board.*
    <Dan>There is a reason it is called "Flash" and not "Substance"</Dan>

    Which of course is why flashy effects are so easy to sell the suits on - it's pretty, who cares if it's useful... until two weeks into deployment you're flooded with complaints, have headaches from hell updating it, realize the boss' machines don't run it right... Welcome to flashtard hell.

    But that's just part of why we have people crapping out two megabyte home pages broken on everything except the magic mix of 96 dpi and the browser they designed to - and wondering why their traffic levels are a joke.

    Take jquery - fat bloated trash that usually results in 12k of working javascript doing 4k of scripting's job... then by not using jquery you end up accused of 'reinventing the wheel'; TOTAL BULL since I find writing 4k of flat scripting easier than 12k of scripting with some garbage 100K+ library.

    YMMV, but only if you don't look down at the spedometer.

    As to buzzwords, they are rapidly becoming such. AJAX in particular has bothered me from day one... We start using one bit of functionality jscript has had since 1998 and was ignored until 2005 - and suddenly we need a new name for it? BULL. (see my opinion of "virtual machines") Certainly there have been meaningful uses of it - gMail and Google Docs comes to mind - but people are just throwing it at *** that would be faster without it. It's like because it's become 'trendy' people try to use it for everything even when it would be faster with LESS server load without it.

    Which brings us back to libraries like jQuery. You are seeing it recommended for some of the dumbest things that CSS can already DO without the assist. In most of the cases I'm seeing jquery, mootools, YUI and all these other crap libraries they are causing more harm to websites than good, are replicating functionality that could be done without them, coders are putting ZERO effort into graceful degradation, to the point where you have people ending up with 200k+ templates not counting images before they even plug CONTENT into them. (usually doing the job of 14-20k)

    It's one step removed from Adobe's MM_ javascript malarkey.

  12. #87
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Black Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    Everything? What are they your lover?
    Back up.

  13. #88
    SitePοint Troll disgracian's Avatar
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    Deathshadow - Are there any Javascript frameworks you actually like?

    Cheers,
    D.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by disgracian View Post
    Deathshadow - Are there any Javascript frameworks you actually like?
    No...

    Because I consider them the same type of crutch as using a WYSIWYG. Bloated code and unnecessary trash.

    Much less we're talking an interpreted language - more overhead to do the same things you can do without it doesn't make any sense to me... It's like user objects. If it was a compiled language then FINE - but it's not.

    That and most of them try to be just as intentionally cryptic as the AT&T heritage it's based on - I like verbose; but then I'm a Wirth fan so...

    What I wouldn't give to replace client side and server side programming with a white-space neutral version of Modula.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    I like that the MooTools guys decided to build Javascript further. An extension to the language, and fixing the Bad Parts along the way. I like that philosophy.

    Honestly I've seen the code Core used to get IE to properly attach (and detach) events, and to get "this" working. It's a lot of code either way. And if you want your hand-written Javascript to work and it attaches events or uses "this" then you're either going to load a bloated library who does it for you or you're going to load your very own personal one you (or someone else) wrote. Either way, a heap of code. Except the library is bigger because it comes with all the other stuff you don't necessarily need (so, use the library if you want those other pre-written things).

    Here's an example of what deathshadow's talking about as far as developers:
    http://www.ecommercedeveloper.com/ar...roduct-Images-
    read that article, and then read it again.

    The recommendation: use inline CSS to hide the products. Then use Javascript to make it appear. Brilliant. These people are getting paid mega-bucks, are well-known in the developer world, are making very popular eCommerce templates/frameworks such as Magento, and this is why they are no different than those guys who get their kicks out of pushing wheelchair users into traffic or grabbing the cane out from a blind guy. They'll pass andrew's test for whether or not they're well-known professionals. A client/friend of mine, who is using Magento (and is very, very happy with it), says I'm the first person he's ever heard say anything about "what if the client doesn't have scripting??" The page to view your shopping cart with the products in it is at least 10 separate inline scripts, not counting the Magento script (varien.js), the two libraries they load (prototype and scriptaculous), the bookmarking (I thought browsers already did that) and highslide js. A lot of it is "nice to have" if you don't mind waiting for all that to load (it never finishes loading in my IE6 and sometimes does not finish loading in my IE7 or my Safari 3). But you cannot order a product without the fancy pretty stuff.

  16. #91
    SitePoint Addict NetNerd85's Avatar
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    Who thinks it is unacceptable for ANY website to not be accessible by ANY device and ANY one person?
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    Who thinks it is unacceptable for ANY website to not be accessible by ANY device and ANY one person?
    That's a dangerously large blanket to throw. On a high level I agree with you, but to take that statement to the nth degree, you're applying conditions which are not fiscally or logistically sound. There is the matter of your audience which you need to take into consideration.

    For the record: I can't stand flash-only sites, and I consider people who build sites that are so javascripty/ajaxy that they don't degrade nicely to be lazy/rank amateurs. I still code to older browser versions and accessible sites because of my clientele (older, less computer literate and some with vision impairments).
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  18. #93
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Who thinks it is unacceptable for ANY website to not be accessible by ANY device and ANY one person?
    Yes, there's a limit, and the limit is different for each site. Obviously all visitors need at least a computer and an internet connection and some kind of web client.

    However a shopping site is one of those sites that only benefit from being accessible to all. It's not a game site. It's not a video site. It's a buy-our-stuff site. if Amazon can do it then I see no excuse for something like Magento, which is VERY popular with merchants.
    And using inline CSS to hide something from all visitors and then requiring Javascript to make them appear again is ignorance, or laziness, I'm not sure which. I'm assuming the guy writing that tutorial has never considered any other way. I'm glad SitePoint (in its articles and tutorials) doesn't teach that way.
    If anything, the disabled (as a very general group) can take advantage of shopping on teh innerwebs versus getting to a brick-and-mortar store.

  19. #94
    SitePοint Troll disgracian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Because I consider them the same type of crutch as using a WYSIWYG. Bloated code and unnecessary trash.
    Sounds like utter extremist nonsense to me.
    Much less we're talking an interpreted language - more overhead to do the same things you can do without it doesn't make any sense to me
    It makes more sense to me than handling browser-specific APIs and quirks manually all the time.

    Cheers,
    D.

  20. #95
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    ralph.m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    I consider them the same type of crutch as using a WYSIWYG. Bloated code and unnecessary trash.
    But deathshadow sir, by spurning jQuery and the like, you miss out on doing wonderful things like this.

    Seriously though, jQuery isn't a big download, really, and it gets cashed, as I understand it, so I don't see the harm if the page elements that employ it degrade gracefully.

  21. #96
    SitePoint Addict NetNerd85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    That's a dangerously large blanket to throw. On a high level I agree with you, but to take that statement to the nth degree, you're applying conditions which are not fiscally or logistically sound. There is the matter of your audience which you need to take into consideration.
    I was asking a question I had not answered myself, how can you agree with me? The question was too see how extreme people were willing to get with their claims


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    For the record: I can't stand flash-only sites, and I consider people who build sites that are so javascripty/ajaxy that they don't degrade nicely to be lazy/rank amateurs. I still code to older browser versions and accessible sites because of my clientele (older, less computer literate and some with vision impairments).
    What about people that don't have the time or budget? Do all of your clients like paying for that extra time they may or may not care about?


    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Yes, there's a limit, and the limit is different for each site. Obviously all visitors need at least a computer and an internet connection and some kind of web client.

    However a shopping site is one of those sites that only benefit from being accessible to all. It's not a game site. It's not a video site. It's a buy-our-stuff site. if Amazon can do it then I see no excuse for something like Magento, which is VERY popular with merchants.
    What if your shop sells computer keyboards and mice, nothing else? Custom keyboards and mice. With maybe mice pads as extras. Occasionally getting in speakers. What level of accessibility does that site need? Mobile device? Screen reader? Doesn't sound like it to me at all. Not every, in fact hardly any websites are as big as amazon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    And using inline CSS to hide something from all visitors and then requiring Javascript to make them appear again is ignorance, or laziness, I'm not sure which. I'm assuming the guy writing that tutorial has never considered any other way...
    Not sure what sort of CSS coder would use inline code these days but on the occasion decide creating a new class declaration just is not worth it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    If anything, the disabled (as a very general group) can take advantage of shopping on teh innerwebs versus getting to a brick-and-mortar store.
    Very good point but that's a choice to be made for the business owner, not the web developer. Not every website, very few websites should feel they have to cater for everyone, everywhere. That's just too demanding for small businesses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    The recommendation: use inline CSS to hide the products. Then use Javascript to make it appear. Brilliant. These people are getting paid mega-bucks, are well-known in the developer world, are making very popular eCommerce templates/frameworks such as Magento, and this is why they are no different than those guys who get their kicks out of pushing wheelchair users into traffic or grabbing the cane out from a blind guy.
    Sorry? what? since when has being a lazy, poorly informed web developer been a comparison for the torture and abuse of disabled people? Seriously
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  22. #97
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Funny how web developers can never agree on standards
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    Funny how web developers can never agree on standards
    of course not, because they don't want to innovate, and as we all know, standards are necessary before innovation can take place

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    SitePoint Addict NetNerd85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r937 View Post
    of course not, because they don't want to innovate, and as we all know, standards are necessary before innovation can take place

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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    I was asking a question I had not answered myself, how can you agree with me? The question was too see how extreme people were willing to get with their claims
    To ask a question that is worded in a leading manner implies that the manner it is worded is the position the person asking the question already has.

    Or in other words: "I believe the sky is red. You agree, don't you?"

    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    What about people that don't have the time or budget? Do all of your clients like paying for that extra time they may or may not care about?
    Ah. You either didn't completely read what I wrote, or misunderstood me. I believe in building the base information structure first, then adding the bells and whistles on later - progressive enhancement vs graceful degradation. Too often, people build sites quick and dirty and leave out the most basic users (I've still got users on 14.4kb/sec connections, so turning off images and/or javascript is a way of life for them).


    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    Not sure what sort of CSS coder would use inline code these days but on the occasion decide creating a new class declaration just is not worth it.
    You'd be surprised how many people really don't know how to use css properly. I deal with css AND inline css on the same element on a regular basis - drives me nuts!

    Quote Originally Posted by NetNerd85 View Post
    Very good point but that's a choice to be made for the business owner, not the web developer. Not every website, very few websites should feel they have to cater for everyone, everywhere. That's just too demanding for small businesses.
    There's a difference between having the bells and whistles and having a site that functions vs one that doesn't. Too often nowadays, the bells and whistles completely break a site for those that can't use them.
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