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  1. #151
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenaissanceNOW View Post
    I've read through all these posts and there is one concept nobody has even touched on.

    Piracy hurts the person doing it, too. It degrades one's personal identity and encourages a person to categorize himself as one of society's "have nots." A little background: I've been both impoverished and financially "well off" in my lifetime.

    When I lived in poverty, I saw myself as being unable to get the things I wanted. In my mind I often rationalized and justified certain behaviors. For instance, I believed that "fat cats have way more than they need and therefore I deserve to have some of it." I operated from a position of lack and jealousy. But please don't get the idea that I was a thief.

    In fact, what enabled me to move out of poverty was the VERY IDEA that I would work harder to obtain my desires.

    A person who justifies and rationalizes theft of any kind is just digging himself into a deeper pit of powerlessness and robbing himself of the motivation to do better. I know of designers who have stolen fonts, software, and even hardware. Not one of them works at the top of his or her abilities. I think we know in our hearts when we are stealing and the brain plays tricks on us thinking up excuses why it's all right.

    Perhaps authenticity frees up creative energy. And wasting one's energy in self-justification keeps a person in a lower, limited condition.

    Here's something I learned: karma accrues interest.
    Well said RenaissanceNOW.

    Thieving degrades the value of a person's self Justifications of any kind can not cover that, no matter how hard the person tries, and hard they try, as is evidenced in this thread
    Ulrike
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  2. #152
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Considering piracy of media and software via the web has become (accounting for the statistics of how many people do it) a social norm, it's rather amusing that you're jumping to conclusions that it suddenly makes them social outcasts (as most pirates don't even see it as illegal) or makes society as a whole think less of them (people talk about file sharing in public - that's not a sign of social outcasting, it's a sign of social acceptance). If that were true the pirates would be dramatically in the minority, not a significant populous proportion. Though as a person who doesn't care what others think I'm assuming your self-value would also remain unaffected based on the viewpoints of others (a perspective I expect many pirates have in respect to not caring). If you're going to start bringing the psychology or sociology of morels into the discussion, you'll want more than broad statements of how society acts or how people will be affected as a result of their actions.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Well said RenaissanceNOW.

    Thieving degrades the value of a person's self Justifications of any kind can not cover that, no matter how hard the person tries, and hard they try, as is evidenced in this thread
    Justification for theft:
    Your owner (yes, you're a slave) cut your rations, your child will die unless you steal medicine from the owners house.

    IF YOU BREAK THE LAW YOU ARE ...

    This thread lacks facts. The one thing I want to know is: how much is it actually hurting vs helping.

    All you anti file sharers should surely be able to give some sort of evidence to demonstrate the impact? So far we've had one guy that chose not to provide digital music as well as cd/dvd. Where are the rest? Why isn't hollywood broke? Why are they still pumping 200mill into a single movie? Why wasn't the recording industry the one asking for a bailout?

  4. #154
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Considering piracy of media and software via the web has become (accounting for the statistics of how many people do it) a social norm, it's rather amusing that you're jumping to conclusions that it suddenly makes them social outcasts (as most pirates don't even see it as illegal) or makes society as a whole think less of them (people talk about file sharing in public - that's not a sign of social outcasting, it's a sign of social acceptance). If that were true the pirates would be dramatically in the minority, not a significant populous proportion. Though as a person who doesn't care what others think I'm assuming your self-value would also remain unaffected based on the viewpoints of others (a perspective I expect many pirates have in respect to not caring). If you're going to start bringing the psychology or sociology of morels into the discussion, you'll want more than broad statements of how society acts or how people will be affected as a result of their actions.
    Hmm, Alex, you are a victim of social think. What the majority thinks has little to do with what is right or wrong. Just look at all the beliefs around the world. Are they all right or are they all wrong? Do you give every belief an equal value?
    Ulrike
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  5. #155
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    I am clearly not going to continue this conversation now you've brought religion into the debate, you know very well that it's explicitly off-limits here.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Hmm, Alex, you are a victim of social think. What the majority thinks has little to do with what is right or wrong. Just look at all the beliefs around the world. Are they all right or are they all wrong? Do you give every belief an equal value?
    Actually, what the majority thinks has everything to do with right and wrong. Or do you claim some divinity?

  7. #157
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    I am clearly not going to continue this conversation now you've brought religion into the debate, you know very well that it's explicitly off-limits here.
    Belief does not relate to religions exclusively. There are many beliefs like: it is alright to take what does not belong to you. That is a belief.
    Ulrike
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  8. #158
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hash View Post
    Actually, what the majority thinks has everything to do with right and wrong. Or do you claim some divinity?
    haha. I do not claim divinity, I am just not a collectivist
    Ulrike
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  9. #159
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hash View Post
    Justification for theft:
    Your owner (yes, you're a slave) cut your rations, your child will die unless you steal medicine from the owners house.
    Why would you work for a boss who is so callous as not to give your child some medicine? It is you then at fault because you chose to work for this man.
    Ulrike
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  10. #160
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Considering piracy of media and software via the web has become (accounting for the statistics of how many people do it) a social norm, it's rather amusing that you're jumping to conclusions that it suddenly makes them social outcasts (as most pirates don't even see it as illegal) or makes society as a whole think less of them (people talk about file sharing in public - that's not a sign of social outcasting, it's a sign of social acceptance). If that were true the pirates would be dramatically in the minority, not a significant populous proportion. Though as a person who doesn't care what others think I'm assuming your self-value would also remain unaffected based on the viewpoints of others (a perspective I expect many pirates have in respect to not caring). If you're going to start bringing the psychology or sociology of morels into the discussion, you'll want more than broad statements of how society acts or how people will be affected as a result of their actions.

    You aren't providing any stats or sources either. Is it really a social norm? Amongst young people it's more prevalent. Amongst older people it's less prevalent. At least that's my observation. But then again, I'm not citing that as fact.

    You are making conclusions as well without basis - this goes both ways. I don't think it's as socially acceptable as you say, but I'd be interested in see some data. If we did a confidential study and asked people to anonymously say if they pirate AND if it's wrong, I think most would admit that it's wrong. It's just in public that the arguments fly, I bet!
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  11. #161
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hash View Post
    Actually, what the majority thinks has everything to do with right and wrong. Or do you claim some divinity?
    I would be willing to bet that the majority of people in the US would say that software/music/movie piracy is wrong, and that the laws that reflect that are proper.

    Of course I have no data for that, but I think it's true.
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  12. #162
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Well here's something I got in a quick Google: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...wnloading-dvds

    If the statistics are accurate, 15% of the European population (averaged out) is statistically significant. I've also seen UK government statistics (offline) that show that anything up to 60% of the British population have done something (whether ripping a CD or DVD or filesharing) which constitutes under current intellectual property laws as a criminal offence. Perhaps all this doesn't quantify to a majority, however the level it's occurring on does show social acceptance at least.

  13. #163
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hash View Post
    Justification for theft:
    Your owner (yes, you're a slave) cut your rations, your child will die unless you steal medicine from the owners house.

    IF YOU BREAK THE LAW YOU ARE ...

    This thread lacks facts. The one thing I want to know is: how much is it actually hurting vs helping.

    All you anti file sharers should surely be able to give some sort of evidence to demonstrate the impact? So far we've had one guy that chose not to provide digital music as well as cd/dvd. Where are the rest? Why isn't hollywood broke? Why are they still pumping 200mill into a single movie? Why wasn't the recording industry the one asking for a bailout?
    But isn't that like saying that as long as you don't hurt someone's interest then it's fair? If you sneak in to my house and swim in my pool, leaving everything perfectly clean and just like it was, is it not trespassing even though I wasn't damaged at all? It's still my property that you snuck on to against my will.

    What about something like this: http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/02/news...stry/index.htm

    There are lots of articles like that. I think it's probably pretty easy to demonstrate that music sales have plummeted, even when you account for things like Rhapsody and iTunes. Without getting into the correlation of piracy, etc. it's hard to really make a statement about it, but certainly sales are down - this is now an old story.
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  14. #164
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    <snip>social acceptance at least.
    What a whopper of a term.
    Ulrike
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  15. #165
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    I would say media sales have plummeted because much of what is produced these days is pretty rubbish, if I see another Miley Cyrus DVD I'll probably cry

  16. #166
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Well here's something I got in a quick Google: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...wnloading-dvds

    If the statistics are accurate, 15% of the European population (averaged out) is statistically significant. I've also seen UK government statistics (offline) that show that anything up to 60% of the British population have done something (whether ripping a CD or DVD or filesharing) which constitutes under current intellectual property laws as a criminal offence. Perhaps all this doesn't quantify to a majority, however the level it's occurring on does show social acceptance at least.
    Ok, we are really getting into some details here but... I agree that piracy is widespread, yea. But the question is, do people REALLY think that it's not theft. Is it socially acceptable to pirate films, as it's socially acceptable to speed a bit or jaywalk even though people know that it's illegal and wrong?

    This is getting a little esoteric, but my point is that just because 'everyone is doing it' doesn't mean that everyone doesn't know it's illegal and that it's some sort of stealing. That's why I would love to see how people would anonymously and confidentially answer the question, 'if you pirate movies, do you think that you are stealing content from the producer of those products?'.

    I bet that most of those 15% know that it's wrong, but do it because it's so easy they can't resist, hence my original premise that everyone knows it's wrong but many people put forth convoluted arguments to justify it because they don't want it to be wrong
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  17. #167
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    I would say media sales have plummeted because much of what is produced these days is pretty rubbish, if I see another Miley Cyrus DVD I'll probably cry
    Heh well, many millions of teenage girls would disagree.
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  18. #168
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    True but you don't really hear about the general public in any country asking to stamp down on piracy itself, usually when the public are behind a law and don't consider it acceptable (like murder) there's a public outcry when such violations occur on a grand scale, from all the reading I've done in such matters I've yet to find any kind of public outcry to strike down on music piracy (with any significant population approval). Again it's as you said "esoteric" but surely if people are ignoring the issue and only those affected are making a point about it does it really have any significance? I would say it's been accepted that "it happens" and is ignored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    True but you don't really hear about the general public in any country asking to stamp down on piracy itself, usually when the public are behind a law and don't consider it acceptable (like murder) there's a public outcry when such violations occur on a grand scale, from all the reading I've done in such matters I've yet to find any kind of public outcry to strike down on music piracy (with any significant population approval). Again it's as you said "esoteric" but surely if people are ignoring the issue and only those affected are making a point about it does it really have any significance? I would say it's been accepted that "it happens" and is ignored.
    This is all unfolding very quickly, as culture/legal/norms go so I think it's premature to say that it's a done deal. We are just starting to see how this will unfold over the coming years.
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  20. #170
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Hmm, Alex, you are a victim of social think. What the majority thinks has little to do with what is right or wrong. Just look at all the beliefs around the world. Are they all right or are they all wrong? Do you give every belief an equal value?
    It also works the other way around. Just because majority thinks it, it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. Minority can be wrong, too. And vice versa. So your question above is irrelevant.

    In a real life, if we are not talking about religion or some other divine power, what is right or wrong is dictated by society though.

  21. #171
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    haha. I do not claim divinity, I am just not a collectivist
    You surely are in some areas of your life. Everybody is unless they live in a cave far way from civilization.

  22. #172
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by risoknop View Post
    It also works the other way around. Just because majority thinks it, it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. Minority can be wrong, too. And vice versa. So your question above is irrelevant.

    In a real life, if we are not talking about religion or some other divine power, what is right or wrong is dictated by society though.
    That is true, the majority can be right, but in this case where theft is an accepted "social norm", the majority is wrong
    Ulrike
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  23. #173
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by risoknop View Post
    You surely are in some areas of your life. Everybody is unless they live in a cave far way from civilization.
    Actually I live in a cave. No, but I have pulled out from a lot of activities because I can not stomach the way many occasions are held, many ways people behave. That includes the casualness of many to claim rights that they actually do not have, like the taking of stuff that does not belong to them.
    Ulrike
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  24. #174
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    That is true, the majority can be right, but in this case where theft is an accepted "social norm", the majority is wrong
    I'll restate that I'm not pro or against piracy however when you make comments like this, they aren't anything other than your own opinion based on your own perceived norms of acceptable and unacceptable trends (and don't really have any place in a debate). Claiming that "in this case, I'm right and everyone else is wrong" is nothing more than a logical fallacy (argument from authority) and doesn't constitute a justified perspective (in respect to the issue itself).

  25. #175
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Actually I live in a cave. No, but I have pulled out from a lot of activities because I can not stomach the way many occasions are held, many ways people behave. That includes the casualness of many to claim rights that they actually do not have, like the taking of stuff that does not belong to them.
    How do you define a right to property? Hundreds of years ago the land area of current USA "belonged" to natives. Then, when Europeans came, they claimed their land and killed most native inhabitants. That's how they got their property. After that, they brought slaves from Africa and these slaves built roads, infrastructure, worked on plantations. They created a lot of wealth yet they did not own any of it. All the wealth created by slaves belonged to white men. Was all this property acquired "morally" (whatever you consider morality to be)?

    We could go even further to history and muse upon when was the first property created and if it was created wrongly or rightly. Imagine there's a land with no people living on it. Then, a man comes, sticks a flag in the ground and claims the land to be his (let's forget about the fact that most land has been acquired by killing off its previous owner). He has done exactly nothing to deserve this land, this property. Few days later, another man comes to the land and wants to build a house there. The first man will, fo course, disagree because he thinks it is his land. Is it morally right to refuse the other guy to live there? This is just a little thought experiment but you can see that words such as "property" or "belongs to" are very complicated philosophical concepts and have a different meanings for different people.

    I hope I'm making sense because English is not my native language.


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