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  1. #126
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    The funny thing about this thread, which I fear is deteriorating rapidly, is that it seems to have increasing nuance that is leading us towards the classic political debate of ________ism vs. ________ism. Dont ya think? or is it just me?
    But these issues are always that, because they can only be discussed properly within that realm

    Tip-toeing around the real terms is a contortionist act
    Ulrike
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  2. #127
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Then we are true contortionists just by merit of this thread not being locked yet!
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

    SAGEWING LLC - QUALITY WEB AND MOBILE APPS. PREMIUM OUTSOURCING SERVICES.
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  3. #128
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    Piracy is not only a theft but just a lack of respect.

    First of all, even digital content is a kind of physical matter. It may have different forms (as a mark on a ferromagnetic carrier, as a state of capacitor etc.) but in terms of physics it's a matter. While copying we recreate the state of matter that was intended by the author to be accessible in a certain place and coditions, in another place in different condidions. Author or owner wants (and it's obvious) to earn money for the state of matter he created. By copying we violate the fundamental law of everyone to get paid for his work. It's just exploiting one's work for free. It's just a lack of elementary respect.

    Imagine what would happen if someone invented a tool to duplicate what you do in your job? One day you come to the office just to teach the machine to make some things (you have been mastering for the last couple of years) and the second day you're no longer needed You get paid for that one day (one copy) and that's all.

    It's strange we accept paying over the odds for things like clothes etc. while screwing money for software which becomes more and more reasonably priced and serves us many years, often as a tools we use to make profit. I don't understand people who download tons of content they will never need and use, just because it's easy to do so.

  4. #129
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post


    The system is getting obsolete. As things like TV a le carte and personalised radio channels grow on the internet, the regular and still used copyright system will be obsolete and it will need to changed. People may pay a monthly fee to have those channels, as they do today but... you don't think that it would work forever, do you?
    What would work forever? Paying for things or the copyright system as it is today?

    I'm sure the copyright system will change, as it faces a lot of issues now.

    But people will continue to pay for stuff. At least I hope so. The only other practical option is the tip of a gun.
    Saul

  5. #130
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    Then we are true contortionists just by merit of this thread not being locked yet!
    I bet it's not gonna be much longer
    Saul

  6. #131
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    People can dress up digital theft all they like, it's theft. Pure and simple. If someone needs bread and has nothing to eat, stealing the bread is still stealing the bread, and there isn't anything nearly that important that's digital (not even in the same ball park), so stop the moral dumbing down and accept that digital theft is theft. The guy stealing the bread might be stealing it from someone who only has the one piece and actually earned it, not stole it, and as I said before, nothing digital is life and death or even close.

    No use stealing and trying to paint it as something else to make yourself feel better, get real with yourself.

    with best regards,
    Karn.

  7. #132
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Wow the tide is turning!
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

    SAGEWING LLC - QUALITY WEB AND MOBILE APPS. PREMIUM OUTSOURCING SERVICES.
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  8. #133
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    Wow the tide is turning!
    With suspicious posts from just registered users. I smell something deep-laid.

  9. #134
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    I'm not that suspicious, not if you listen to podcast credits!

    PS I've been stuck on 4 posts for a good while too!

  10. #135
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy bluedreamer's Avatar
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    Well this thread has turned out to be very heavy reading, it's worn me out reading through it all!

  11. #136
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebKarnage View Post
    I'm not that suspicious, not if you listen to podcast credits!

    PS I've been stuck on 4 posts for a good while too!
    First two posts in October 2009... then nothing 6 months and then 2 posts today. So you've been stuck on 2 posts for a good while surely you meant to say?

    But I take my words back, when I looked at your profile I saw there Join date: Apr 2010 when in fact it says Apr 2009

    The other guy joined just today, though.

    Anyways, this's been a very interesting thread so far so keep discussing, I will be just a reader from now on I'm not very good at debating.

  12. #137
    SitePoint Zealot My220x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Yes, because no-one uses Amazon or the hundred other legitimate book retailers and no-one ever visits stores that may sell books and no-one visits this website do they.... oh wait! If you're going to make an argument for or against piracy, try to say something that isn't filled with as many holes as the titanic
    LOL! I'm not all that clued up on piracy lol so let me do some research and read the other 4 pages of this topic lol and I will come back with my real thoughts.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by risoknop View Post
    First two posts in October 2009... then nothing 6 months and then 2 posts today. So you've been stuck on 2 posts for a good while surely you meant to say?

    But I take my words back, when I looked at your profile I saw there Join date: Apr 2010 when in fact it says Apr 2009

    The other guy joined just today, though.

    Anyways, this's been a very interesting thread so far so keep discussing, I will be just a reader from now on I'm not very good at debating.
    It said 4 posts before then as I've posted in the Javascript Live private forum too, so I'm not sure how it all works, but it's odd....

    ...and how many posts have I got now.....

    with best regards,
    Karn.

  14. #139
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebKarnage View Post
    I'm not that suspicious, not if you listen to podcast credits!
    Depends on the podcast I guess... I listen to a few and some of the people involved are as suspicious as you can get!

  15. #140
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    When you steal content by pirating it, you are giving more power to the pirates and removing it from the producers.

    Where will this take you? To a world where pirates have all the power and producers are mere slaves.

    Every single time you download something without compensating the producer fairly, you are pushing the world one more degree in that direction.

    And even if you don't care one iota about where the world is going, ask yourself: In a world run by pirates, who will pay YOU a salary? No one.

  16. #141
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    I've read through all these posts and there is one concept nobody has even touched on.

    Piracy hurts the person doing it, too. It degrades one's personal identity and encourages a person to categorize himself as one of society's "have nots." A little background: I've been both impoverished and financially "well off" in my lifetime.

    When I lived in poverty, I saw myself as being unable to get the things I wanted. In my mind I often rationalized and justified certain behaviors. For instance, I believed that "fat cats have way more than they need and therefore I deserve to have some of it." I operated from a position of lack and jealousy. But please don't get the idea that I was a thief.

    In fact, what enabled me to move out of poverty was the VERY IDEA that I would work harder to obtain my desires.

    A person who justifies and rationalizes theft of any kind is just digging himself into a deeper pit of powerlessness and robbing himself of the motivation to do better. I know of designers who have stolen fonts, software, and even hardware. Not one of them works at the top of his or her abilities. I think we know in our hearts when we are stealing and the brain plays tricks on us thinking up excuses why it's all right.

    Perhaps authenticity frees up creative energy. And wasting one's energy in self-justification keeps a person in a lower, limited condition.

    Here's something I learned: karma accrues interest.

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    Also screw those greedy web designers, programmers, copy writers, graphic artists, and photographers. After you produce a website design, software application, a movie, a song, a photo, or an article you can keep control of it for 1 year - after that anyone who wants it can just 'take it'. Do we really want that?
    I do not support someone using another's work for profit such as selling of pirated movies or music. I do, however, support the free trading of music and movies. Software is another issue because it provides an economic benefit, usually. If you use Adobe Photoshop for work purposes, you are experiencing an economic benefit from the use of the product and I do not think it is unreasonable that the creator share in that economic benefit.

    Do you achieve any economic benefit from watching a movie or listening to a song? If you are a nightclub, maybe you do get an economic benefit from music and should pay royalties. But most of us don't.

    What about supermodels? They make money from their physical appearances, right? Let's say you see one walking down the street and you look in her direction, or maybe stare. Should you be forced to pay her a royalty because you looked in her direction? Then why should you pay a royalty for looking in the direction of a television screen with a movie playing on it?

    There is no economic cost to being looked at or listened to. Thus, I do not see much rationale for the insistence of compensation. Should I be forced to pay royalties for singing others' songs in the shower?

    As for websites, my websites are already freely available. There is no need for anyone else to steal my content because it is already freely available.

    Another interesting issue is news. Did you know that news organizations are trying to get legislation enacted to prevent the dissemination of information? If CNN publishes something, bloggers will write a blurb about the story. News organizations are arguing that even though the content is not reproduced verbatim, the information contained is the same and that is diminishing the value of producing news.

    Do you think we should all be prohibited from discussing a news story because it was originated by CNN or the BBC and not ourselves? That is what the big news organizations want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    If the maximum value of a piece of work is the amount of money that you can make over a year, then we are effectively putting a limit on how much people can invest into something and make a profit. This seems like an odd approach
    On the flip side, if we allow copyright protections a lifetime after the author's death, are we not encouraging dynasties through the inheritance of money?

    I do not have a problem with people born into money. However, most people born into money are born into assets that have been invested and have grown over time. They don't have special laws created that grant them an income stream derived from intellectual property rights on works their great-grandfathers created.

    You work. You get paid. When the work is over, the pay should be over, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by XLCowBoy View Post
    Sagewing is being polite. This is just a completely retarded comment.

    I know musicians who have been working "the circuit" for years. They only make a little money from gigs and promos. They rely on sales from the cd's and/or digital downloads to make ends meet.

    Imagine your friend in that situation. Try stealing from a friend.

    Now imagine a gang stealing from your friend.

    Yeah. That's exactly what you're trying to justify.
    Actually, I know a guy who is in the same situation. He's a guitar player. He grew up down the street from me and still lives in that same house down from my parents now that his parents are dead. He makes money from gigs and also holds a part time job to make ends meet.

    He started playing music NOT for the money, but for the love of playing music. Most musicians never hit the big time. They play for the music.

    He is doing what he loves. Money is not his motivation.

    What happens is that the few who do hit the big time get their first taste of wealth and they love it. After that greed rules the day. $250 for concert tickets? Yes, you will find hardcore socialist musicians charging that much and more for the privilege of sitting close to them.

    These musicians who spend a few hours doing something then expect to be paid for the rest of their lives are plain lazy. If they want a regular income, they can go get regular work like the rest of us. I can't imagine spending an entire lifetime avoiding real work!

    If the people were allowed to vote to abolish copyright protections on music and movies, how do you think the vote would go?

    I would vote to abolish copyrights on music and movies. Absolutely.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    Can anyone give an answer to my question, "why do we have all these reasons that it can be OK to take intangible materials, but it's not OK to take tangible materials under similar circumstances of need, empathy, etc?"
    Simple: there is an economic cost to taking a tangible item.

    If someone steals your car, you lose the economic value of your car and the benefit it provides.

    When someone copies your 0s and 1s, there is no direct economic cost to you nor is their any loss of benefit. I can copy your 0s and 1s a thousand times over and you would never notice.

    Bottom line: If someone steals your car, you know it. If someone copies your 0s and 1s, you will never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    Well, that is one perspective

    The reason I continue to beg the question is simply because if we can use fairness, empathy, need, etc. to justify the unauthorized use of products like software, music, etc. then certainly we could apply that to tangible things like cars, clothing, iPhones, etc.
    No, we do not. If I steal your car, will you know it? If I copy text from your website and keep it in a file on my hard drive for future reference, will you know it?

    Again, intellectual property rights exist at the will of the people. They can be extended or taken away at the will of the people.

    The fact that piracy is so high indicates that for a large percentage of the people, the will is that there be no such intellectual property rights.

    I vote for repealing copyright protections for music and movies and limiting the timeframe for software.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrac View Post
    So, the question is, is downloading a digital copy of a copyrighted work stealing?

    If you go to a friends house and bring a book back home with your friends permission, did you just steal something?
    When you buy a book, you are buying a physical book or a digital file with information. You are going to read it and intake that information.

    When you go to the library and borrow a book, you are reading it to intake information.

    When you illegally download something, you are doing so to take in information.

    When you listen to somebody discuss something they read in a book, you are intaking information.

    The first method costs money. The second, third, and fourth methods do not cost money. Only the downloading is illegal.

    So if gaining information by downloading is illegal, then why should going to the library and borrowing a book or discussing copyrighted content with a friend be legal?

    My brain is my iPod. I listen to snippets of songs all day long in my head. I can hear it just as if it were playing. Should I have to pay royalties for hearing songs in my head, too???

  20. #145
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    My brain is my iPod. I listen to snippets of songs all day long in my head. I can hear it just as if it were playing. Should I have to pay royalties for hearing songs in my head, too???
    After hearing some of the strange lawsuits in other countries (namely the UK), I would not be all that surprised to see someone fining someone for humming a tune.

    Only the downloading is illegal.
    In YOUR country. : )

  21. #146
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    Lot of business models are based on a monopoly on copy means.
    This monopoly no longer exists for writing, sound and pictures. You can try to legislate around it, it's not a matter of "if" these old models will die, but of "when".

    So new models must be created.
    If it's easier for someone to get a pirated version of your work than buying it, you've lost.
    The kind of models to get to are ones where buying the product add some value. Easy to do with physical work (limited editions, some collector item added etc.), but for the kind of products you're selling (downloadable books) you need something else.
    An idea would be an access to some "buyers only" part of the site were those buyers can interact with the authors.

    Pirated content can get you new customers if what you offer is good. have you even checked if the people you sent notices had already bought some of your other e-books ?

  22. #147
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Theres also an issue of free trade... if you and your friend want to swap DVD's or movies (say you got bored with it and want to swap) or if you want to resell your item as second hand but used... that by the way the current intellectual property law works it can be technically construed as illegal (as you don't physically own the music or movie, you just own a license to listen to the contents of the disk... and YOU alone). There could be considered both a physical loss and a loss of sale due to people sharing and passing around their legally paid for books, movies and music (in packaged form), yet I expect most people wouldn't consider lending someone their CD, borrowing a book from the library, buying something at a boot sale or market, buying it second hand off a friend, or letting other people listen to it (say if they had a party) or if a group of you and your friends watch a DVD in your home illegal. Anyone who is pro the illegal is illegal argument thereby must cease and desist any such actions and must always pay royalties for every instance they play it where there's several people present (as the law states that as beyond fair use).

  23. #148
    Keep Moving Forward gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    towards the classic political debate of ________ism vs. ________ism.
    Buddy boy, I've come to realise almost all arguments boil down to those two in some way.

    You ever had that friend who always wants to lime and never buys a beer?


    Quote Originally Posted by Datura
    Can you make a more specific statement? What is the standard you applied here?
    Flowerly language.

    The more, the better; As far as most philosophy is concerned.

    Trying to fill the unforgiving minute
    with sixty seconds' worth of distance run.

    Update on Sitepoint's Migration to Discourse

  24. #149
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead)
    Flowerly language.

    The more, the better; As far as most philosophy is concerned.
    Cryptic
    Ulrike
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  25. #150
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    What if I pirated Kevin's book purely because I wanted to get to the bottom of the numerous "select jokes doesn't work" threads that appear in the php forums?

    I don't need the book - don't even want it - but through piracy I may be able to help another person out.

    It's still a moral quandary to me, but I'd rather have a world with piracy than without.


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